Well, if we really want to answer this, let's talk about terminology I will use:

• Weak means a commander who in the majority of situations is an inferior choice, and between two players of equal skill, will lead to the opposing player winning a majority or even supermajority of the time.
• Average means that all else equal, the commander doesn't shift the balance of power, and between two players of equal skill, will lead to the opposing player winning half-ish of the time.
• Strong means that all else equal, the commander does shift the balance of power for appropriate lists, and between two players of equal skill, will lead to the opposing player winning less than half of the time, but not dramatically less.
• Overpowered means that all else equal, the commander dramatically alters the game, and between two players of equal skill, will lead to the opposing player losing a supermajority of the time barring massive luck.

So now Ackbar.

I think we can immediately dismiss that Ackbar is weak (plenty of people are winning consistently with him), and given the strong rebel preference for him in the Vassal tournament so far and in local play, I think we can go so far as to say he's probably even a cut above average.

So now we need to ask: are there counters to Ackbar, or is he overpowered? I will say that having played both with and against him, what makes him strong is that his fleets are easy to understand, easy to use, and bring a mathematical advantage (more dice) that cannot be screwed up unless a player is really poor. In other words, Ackbar is going to be strong in most situations. However, he does have some flaws:

• He does nothing for squadrons, so against a strong squadron build, unless you can use his ships to kill the carriers, you are at a disadvantage (e.g. boosted comms Rhymerball)
• He does nothing if you are out of position, so against faster fleets (or those with a synergy between movement and objectives), you are at a disadvantage.

I think this explains why a Raider Rush list (or similar Gencon Special type thinking) could do a number on an Ackbar list. If you jam the line in the face, they have no advantage and are getting pounded. I think this also explains why Rhymerball is a thing again. I think it also means that the CR90 list could be a nightmare for Ackbar.

Either way, I've seen him lose. It's not like you can't beat him. It is, however, like you can't beat him if you didn't bring tools to defeat strong lists and understand your own list. Based on this, I would rate him strong (certainly the strongest of the Rebel admirals in a vacuum, though for purpose built lists, I think MM and Rieekan can be very good), but not overpowered (he is going to be common, but he's not gamebreaking).

"If your opponent is winning the obligation to change is thus on your shoulders." (My Fencing Coach)

1. The suggestion to take fighters has been made, and the idea that you have demonstrated in this diagram is you can roughly predict where your opponent will go.

2. Maybe give some consideration to a bid, thus having the choice of first player or your missions. I am thinking Advanced Gunnery (for the ISD), Fire Lanes (put the counter to the front of Green VSD but deploy as you would blue thus your opponent will cut across the objective at distance, put you 3 obstacles in a triangle to the right side of your opponents deployment zone as to encourage the setup shown) and Minefields.

3. Give the VSD Tractor Beams, slow that lead ship and you'll create a traffic jam.

4. Take Demolisher and Engine techs and flank the line. At speed 2-3 you'll catch them on about turn 3-4, 4 black dice on tail end charlie, followed buy another 2+2 black and red and a further 4 black if needed will often kill a ship or leave it wreaked. Plus with Engine Techs you also have a ram or two up your sleeve. Plus with a speed of 4 you can go from red dice range to killing range in one turn. Even if you are playing second Demolisher will be able to keep jinking and moving to take on the rear elements of the line.

I think this explains why a Raider Rush list (or similar Gencon Special type thinking) could do a number on an Ackbar list. If you jam the line in the face, they have no advantage and are getting pounded. I think this also explains why Rhymerball is a thing again. I think it also means that the CR90 list could be a nightmare for Ackbar.

I can confirm this. Case in point:

I just got done with 10-0/tabling an Ackbar list run well by a competent player with a CR90 swarm. The respective lists were:

[ REBEL FLEET (384 points)

1 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - General Rieekan - SW-7 Ion Batteries (74)

2 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries - Jaina's Light (46)

3 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries (44)

4 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries (44)

5 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries (44)

6 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries (44)

7 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries (44)

8 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - SW-7 Ion Batteries (44)

http://armada.fabpsb.net/permalink.php?sq=r2c8i5r2i5f6r2i5r2i5r2i5r2i5r2i5r2i5 ]

[ REBEL FLEET (399 points)

1 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Admiral Ackbar - Gunnery Team - Advanced Projectors (123)

2 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Intel Officer - Gunnery Team - XI7 Turbolasers (92)

3 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Intel Officer - Gunnery Team - XI7 Turbolasers (92)

4 • Assault Frigate Mark II B - Intel Officer - Gunnery Team - XI7 Turbolasers (92)

http://armada.fabpsb.net/permalink.php?sq=r8c9w1d2r8o5w1t4r8o5w1t4r8o5w1t4 ]

We played his Advanced Gunnery. I did exactly what I always preach on here to all the Ackbar complainers: charge at his nose, mass your forces, deny him side shots, if you have to give him side shots then give him too many to take full advantage of, box him in, then eat his flimsy ships for breakfast one by one from front to back. And what do you know, it works!

Ackbar is beatable. He is not OP. He is not even hard to beat, as such.

Sure, he's good, but he is very simple, both to play and to counter. Which means that, just as [someone who I have temporarily forgotten] said above: yeah he's got a strong edge in noob v noob matches, because he is easy to play. But learning to beat him is also very straightforward, and a player who builds and plays around strict "conga and broadside it up" tactics with no improvement should start getting beaten pretty regularly pretty quickly as the rest of the field learns how to counter this very basic tactic.

Edit: Picture of the deployment setup. Apologies for potato quality.

"If your opponent is winning the obligation to change is thus on your shoulders." (My Fencing Coach)

1. The suggestion to take fighters has been made, and the idea that you have demonstrated in this diagram is you can roughly predict where your opponent will go.

2. Maybe give some consideration to a bid, thus having the choice of first player or your missions. I am thinking Advanced Gunnery (for the ISD), Fire Lanes (put the counter to the front of Green VSD but deploy as you would blue thus your opponent will cut across the objective at distance, put you 3 obstacles in a triangle to the right side of your opponents deployment zone as to encourage the setup shown) and Minefields.

3. Give the VSD Tractor Beams, slow that lead ship and you'll create a traffic jam.

4. Take Demolisher and Engine techs and flank the line. At speed 2-3 you'll catch them on about turn 3-4, 4 black dice on tail end charlie, followed buy another 2+2 black and red and a further 4 black if needed will often kill a ship or leave it wreaked. Plus with Engine Techs you also have a ram or two up your sleeve. Plus with a speed of 4 you can go from red dice range to killing range in one turn. Even if you are playing second Demolisher will be able to keep jinking and moving to take on the rear elements of the line.

i love that quote and at the end of the day feel like that is the real issue people are having. Wave 1 tactics don't work as well and they are sad panda about it

I just got done with 10-0/tabling an Ackbar list run well by a competent player with a CR90 swarm. The respective lists were:

Looking at the photo I would have tried just flying at the CR90's and trying to put as many of my ships into position to fire left and right as possible.

I think my quote applies to your opponent in this instance, he deployed like you had a big slow fleet of ships rather than small nimble ships.

God the CR90 rush is so real....

God the CR90 rush is so real....

Guppies and MC80 suffer from being rammed too. So many shields and so little hull, Jet Packs (err Engine Techs) makes it all so very hard as does Assault Proton Torpedoes.

I just got done with 10-0/tabling an Ackbar list run well by a competent player with a CR90 swarm. The respective lists were:

Looking at the photo I would have tried just flying at the CR90's and trying to put as many of my ships into position to fire left and right as possible.

I think my quote applies to your opponent in this instance, he deployed like you had a big slow fleet of ships rather than small nimble ships.

That's pretty much what he did: charged me, covering noses with overlapping fields of fire. Unfortunately I'm terrible about remembering to take pictures during the game, so I can't show it well, but basically what he did was crank the two trailing AF2's hard left to try and trap me between two perpendicular offset conga lines. CR90's are just too bendy to fall into that, though...

But you're right, the quote does still apply. I'm a big fan of that quote, heh. To his credit, this was kind of a joke game: he knew I was bringing the swarm so he was trying to build a counter, not a tourney-quality list.

God the CR90 rush is so real....

Guppies and MC80 suffer from being rammed too. So many shields and so little hull, Jet Packs (err Engine Techs) makes it all so very hard as does Assault Proton Torpedoes.

I apologize but I don't see what you are trying to say here

I think he's referring to the CR90B cruise missile list. Don't know that I saw you around here at that time, so sorry if I'm telling a story you already know here, but: during the Dark Times between Sullust and Wave 2, somebody came up with the idea of strapping Engine Techs onto a bunch of CR90B's, sitting Rieekan in one, and using them as ram-happy cruise missiles. The IFF guys got wind of it and mentioned it on the show, and so there was a week or so there where some people thought it might be the unstoppable cheese of the wave before it was play-tested and shown to be crap.

I don't think it's good, and I don't think I've ever seen it work well. Ramming is a useful tool to keep in your pocket and use as appropriate, but I don't think building for it is a good idea. Especially with how expensive ET is, you're setting yourself up for a series of pretty disadvantageous trades. It's just one of those things that looks good on paper but doesn't really work well on the table.

"If your opponent is winning the obligation to change is thus on your shoulders." (My Fencing Coach)

1. The suggestion to take fighters has been made, and the idea that you have demonstrated in this diagram is you can roughly predict where your opponent will go.

2. Maybe give some consideration to a bid, thus having the choice of first player or your missions. I am thinking Advanced Gunnery (for the ISD), Fire Lanes (put the counter to the front of Green VSD but deploy as you would blue thus your opponent will cut across the objective at distance, put you 3 obstacles in a triangle to the right side of your opponents deployment zone as to encourage the setup shown) and Minefields.

3. Give the VSD Tractor Beams, slow that lead ship and you'll create a traffic jam.

4. Take Demolisher and Engine techs and flank the line. At speed 2-3 you'll catch them on about turn 3-4, 4 black dice on tail end charlie, followed buy another 2+2 black and red and a further 4 black if needed will often kill a ship or leave it wreaked. Plus with Engine Techs you also have a ram or two up your sleeve. Plus with a speed of 4 you can go from red dice range to killing range in one turn. Even if you are playing second Demolisher will be able to keep jinking and moving to take on the rear elements of the line.

No ackbar list is going to deploy where they are going to willingly run into the mines. changing my graphic to represent that is unrealistic... what would probably happen is that the Rebels would react to Imperial placement as first player. If they set up green, Empire sets up away from the mines and Empire is running into a red dice barrage as they chase. If Empireset up on the opposite side, Rebels set up on the opposite edge of the minefield and conga-line in.

Rebels don't necessarily have to set up nose-to-butt either. They can either set up at enough of an angle that a 1-turn will let them steer by a friendly ship or off-center so they are parallel, but not overlapping. Any Rebel player seeing a tractor beam in his opponent's list can stake setup steps to avoid being beamed. Plus, that's 6 points that isn't put towards H9s, XI7s, or leading shots...

The problem I see with Demolisher is that with wide arcs out of the MC80 (and 30), and to an extent the assault frigate, a 1-click turn opens up a large swath of space to fire over that the Demolsiher has to cross in that many turns to survive and be effective. Part of the reason Wave 1 was so hard on the Rebels is because the Assault frigate was the only (expensive) counter to Demolisher. Now the Rebels have MC80s and MC30s with pretty good arcs as well, and they can out-range the Demolisher with free accuracy in that setup. Plus I'm skeptical about any kind of long-range flanking maneuvers to get behind enemy ships now... I tried it with an engine tech Gladiator before, and got out-run by a speed 2 MC80 that broke formation from the Assault frigates.

So I mean, I'm still convinced only Rhymerballs or ISD spam are ways to totally defeat Ackbar. In the case of Rhymerballs though you need to pick your carriers carefully, because an Ackbar build is going to be gunning for that ship to kill it and win. No point in kitting out an ISD-I with all the fighter upgrades in the world if Ackabar pulverizes it. ISD-IIs may last a bit longer at least, but the more points you sink into fewer ships the less activations you will have in the face of Ackbar firing more and better shots. *shrug*

In conclusion ackbar is not OP

You have come up with a very different conclusion than others from the same data.

In conclusion ackbar is not OP

You have come up with a very different conclusion than others from the same data.

I think not good sir.

In conclusion ackbar is not OP

You have come up with a very different conclusion than others from the same data.

You can't really determine what is OP based on statistics and data only Simply because there are ways to mitigate the effectiveness of different builds through positioning and tactics. If people refuse to adapt to the new meta, then it's only normal that they lose, so I share Irokenics conclusion.

It's relatively easy to Counter Deploy from Ackbar if you have a few squadrons at hand along with a few fast ships, and avoid a couple of turns of the engagement until the time is right.

If we want to look at statistics purely :

1) An AFMK2 A with Ackbar, Enhanced Armaments or Slaved Turrets and Gunnery team will throw 6 red dice from the side. With an average of 0.75 damage (including the double) per red dice, along with 0.25 accuracies, it will throw 4.5 damage with 0.75 accuracies and 1.5 blanks on 2 potential targets. Rounded up to 5 damage and 1 accuracies, it will lock the Brace and the defender will redirect to another hull zone, taking 3 on the other zone + 2 on the front. Okay, that is not bad.

2) A MC80 Assault with the same loadout except Gunnery Team will throw 7 dice for 5.25 total damage with 1 accuracy as well, for a similar output as the Assault Frigate. That isn't bad either.

When we apply this damage on an ISD, the ISD will still have 2 shields on the front hull zone, 0 in one side hull zone and 3 on the other side hull zone. A Victory will have the same except only 1 shield on the front hull zone.

In both cases, it means that it will take 2 volleys from AFMK2s or Ackbar to even get to the hull.

If we look at a similar build but with XI7 instead of Enhanced Armaments :

1) AFMK2 will throw 5 dice for a total of 3.75 damage and 0.625 accuracies. Rounded up, it's 4 damage and an accuracy, locking down the Brace, with 1 Redirect : Defending hull zone takes 3 damage, side zone takes one. And ISD wil still have 1 shield on the front, and the VSD will have none, with a side hull zone with 2 shields in both cases. Once again, it takes 2 volleys to get to the hull.

2) MC80 will throw 6 dice for a total of 5 damage and 1 accuracy (rounded up), locking the Brace, completely depleting the ISD's front shields and inflicting 1 damage on the hull for a VSD. Not too shabby.

But even then, it's not particularily impressive either. Considering that XI7 only apply on average 3 damage to the defending hull zone (when the Brace is locked) in the case of an AFMK2 and 5 damage in the case of the MC80 (rounding up from 4.5 average), it's going to take 4 from AFMK2s shots to kill a VSD (first against the shields, then 3 x 3 to kill the hull) and 5 to kill an ISD.

An Ackbar fleet with 2 AFMK2s and an MC80 will, on average, not be able to kill a VSD in a single volley. And that's not even counting the amount of shields you regenerate through Engineering Commands (which, to be fair, one should be spamming when facing an Ackbar fleet until they've reached their sweet spot). Considering a command gives back 2 shields and the average damage output of an Ackbar AFMK2 is 5 damage after locking the Brace down, each Engineering Command diminishes the effectiveness of the AFMK2's shooting by 40% or by 50% if the enemy has XI7. Imagine that with Tarkin, you'll be getting free engineering tokens, meaning that you are actually getting 3 shields back per turn. That diminishes the firepower from an AFMK2 by 60% when it has Enhanced Armaments or by 75% when it has XI7 when you combine it with Engineering Commands...

That's not too shabby either. But I can understand that using these pesky Engineering Commands as an Imperial player might be conceding that you're on the back foot when it comes to firepower. Urgh, those Rebel scums !

It might not be applicable on carriers that use squadron commands to get the most out of their squadrons, but considering that this fleet is slow, it's very easy to keep the Bombers locked onto the ships, without giving out a single squadron command, except maybe from the carrier that will take the least damage on Turn 2, so that you can move and shoot, then fire and forget).

____

So, yeah, Ackbar is good, but definitely not overpowered. Like I proved, Engineering Commands allow to significantly mitigate the firepower of Ackbar on Engineering 4 ships. Paired with proper positioning, it's easy to clearly mitigate Ackbar's damage.

You proved that an ackbar fleet played by the one person on this planet that always rolls perfectly average is not overpowered - not less, not more.

You proved that an ackbar fleet played by the one person on this planet that always rolls perfectly average is not overpowered - not less, not more.

Averages are good as an indication. But, let's take the worst case scenario if you will

AFMK2 with Enhanced Armaments and Ackbar and a Concentrate Fire command : 7 red dice, with 6 double hits and 1 accuracy. That's 12 total damage without the ability to Brace. Against a VSD, it's 2 hull zones gone and 6 damage on the hull.

Sure, that is overpowered, but it also has a 0.000005% chance of occuring (12.5% ^ 7).

I can also take the worst case scenario roll from a VSD1 with Concentrate Fire, which is exactly the same roll (1 acc, 2 double red hit, 4 hit crits on the black dice), which deals 12 damage with an acc. And guess what, this has even more chances of occuring with 0.000008% chance (1 out of 131 072 combinations).

____

So, sure, if you want to always take the worst case scenario as a baseline for your analysis, with one chance over 2 092 152 possibilities to happen, be my guest

With a high variance though, I agree that the median value would be more interesting to use for sure, but I don't have time for that right now.

You proved that an ackbar fleet played by the one person on this planet that always rolls perfectly average is not overpowered - not less, not more.

Let me be clear about a statistical point: if you have an opponent who, over a statistically relevant large sample, rolls something other than average, you are playing against a cheater.

It is a very good starting assumption. However I don't think the math above is complete. Ackbar, to me, is the second most efficient method of ship-based damage delivery the rebels have available to them. That is why he is so strong (there are squadrons which are better as well, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion).

You proved that an ackbar fleet played by the one person on this planet that always rolls perfectly average is not overpowered - not less, not more.

Let me be clear about a statistical point: if you have an opponent who, over a statistically relevant large sample, rolls something other than average, you are playing against a cheater.

It is a very good starting assumption. However I don't think the math above is complete. Ackbar, to me, is the second most efficient method of ship-based damage delivery the rebels have available to them. That is why he is so strong (there are squadrons which are better as well, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion).

No question, but averages help little to understand the potential threat range of a ship. Red dice have a lot of variation, thus calculating them with their average damage of 0.75 per die somewhat fails to describe the pure horror a non-average red dice roll can bring.

Even if a strategy or build is the best, or even dominant, that doesn't make it overpowered.

Even if a strategy or build is the best, or even dominant, that doesn't make it overpowered.

Fixed that for you. Sorry, but Ackbar builds can't even claim to be the best in my mind.

I'm only 1 for 6 with Ackbar right now... Compared to the 12 out of 15 I am with Garm...

Rieekan and his suicide Shrimps are the usual cause of my sleepless nights. Ackber dosn't even phase me anymore.

Our local Ackbar player is unbeaten with him so far so far. Of course he placed 1st in both Sullest events he played, so he is a good player. I used to go 50/50 against him. but have had no luck beating him when he has used Ackbar yet. He does not run conga line Ackbar and he also uses mid to heavy fighter support as well, so the counters proposed here are not as reliable against him.

Our local Ackbar player is unbeaten with him so far so far. Of course he placed 1st in both Sullest events he played, so he is a good player. I used to go 50/50 against him. but have had no luck beating him when he has used Ackbar yet. He does not run conga line Ackbar and he also uses mid to heavy fighter support as well, so the counters proposed here are not as reliable against him.

What are his usual fleets ? It's interesting to see another Ackbar build

It seems through this topic that a lot of people have been missing the point.

OP means Over Powered , which means something that is over powerful compared to the average powerlevel of upgrade/combos.

So OP doesn't mean unbeatable and invincible it means more powerful than the average.

So in that regard Yes Akbar+gunnery team is OP, doesn't mean you cannot win against it , doesn't mean that you can't do anything to mitigate that. But no matter what you say or do, it doesn't change the basic fact that Akbar + gunnery team is OP.

So as a player you can decide to complain or adapt your strat to be able to mitigate that, I personally think that you should do both:

-Adapt your strat to reduce the problem and have fun playing,

-Report the problem to FFG so they can do something about it.