Greetings pilots!

There are obviously many changes with Wave 8+ hitting the scene. This got me thinking about generic list building rules I have almost programmed myself to follow over the past year. My recipe for building any list is usually an ace, a few generics, and a little bit of utility, usually putting me in the 4-5 ship range. I want to break away from this personal notion I have and work outside of it a little bit. But this leads me to my first question:

How many ships do you think a non-ace list should have if they do not have an ace? My gut tells me at least four, but it could even be five or six.

Secondly, is there a red dice requirement and not a ship requirement?

My third question is, how do you counter other aces? Do you guess where they will end up? Do you spread arcs to ensure at least one shot against them? Do you spread out in a blocking pattern with your generics to deny actions and arcs? All of the above?

I have been playing for over a year now, and I have done all of the above at some point, but I have been too reliant on my list's ace(s). The facts are that without a huge initiative bid, over time you are going to come across aces that out PS you or move after you due to initiative. Because of this, I want to discard the notion of needing an ace. I still love named pilots leading a crew of generics, but I am going to start worrying less about their pilot skill and just use MY piloting skill to adapt to the situation.

As an example I ran Guri and three Kihraxzs in my last tournament. With maneuvering and spreading arcs, I was still able to snag a few Poe kills with the generics.

Do you have any 'rules' you follow when not using aces? Do you see non-ace lists as non-competitive?

So is your definition of an Ace any named pilot?

Fielding low PS named pilots can be a lot of fun, though they are by no means aces (high PS).

Some ships are better at covering all the angles than others. Turrets, of course. The generic Decimator is mean. Also the YV-666 has a massive arc that can be difficult for the best ace to dodge.

Swarms are good at blocking because they can cover the 2 or 3 most likely destinations for a high PS ship.

Having lots of ships with the same PS also gives you flexibility when maneuvering to trap that elusive ace.

For ship numbers, It really depends on faction and what i'm flying specifically. If i'm going to run rebels, usually 4 or 5 ships would be good, since I usually like to run a combo of A-wings and B-wings. If i'm running empire, I would say at least 5. (4 academy ties only taking up 48 points is a really strong element to an empire generic list).

As far as upgrades go, I like to use 2 rules of thumb KIS(Keep it simple), and STU (Share the upgrades). Personally I find adding to much into a generic makes it an ace when i run it, and that can be a game losing mistake. So I try to limit upgrades on my generics. I also like to spread out upgrades to other generics as well when I can. I also like to run squad tactics when using only generics, this deals with aces very efficiently in my experience. Sending an A-wing in to block and then having the B-wings focus fire a target down works rather well.

Some generic only lists I would say that are non competitive would be E-wing and TIE phantom generics. Hownastyever TIE swarm, and to a lesser extent, Z swarm, still is very nasty. And the new TLT hogs make a very nasty combo as well.

Edit: Also this will be a nice topic to follow as I have a tournament coming up in a month's time with a rule stipulation of no named pilots...

For me, the answer is .... Answers

As in, your list needs to be able to reasonably counter all of the named builds that you know of. If you have a weakness to something, you can be certain that it'l show up.

There are obviously many changes with Wave 9+ hitting the scene.

Are you from the future?

I'm still waiting for Wave 8 to be released.

For me, the answer is .... Answers

As in, your list needs to be able to reasonably counter all of the named builds that you know of. If you have a weakness to something, you can be certain that it'l show up.

This about sums it up.

I do think aces are about to be in a worse place then they were in some respects so its a good time to explore generics and your own piloting skills. The power of control is rising and the PS bid is getting more muddled. So while aces aren't necessarily bad I don't think they are going to be quite as no brainer as they have been.

So is your definition of an Ace any named pilot?

No, my definition of an ace is PS 8+ (most people probably would say 9+). Before running the current list, I have had this formula or recipe to list-building that includes this type of ace. However, I feel that just having a single named pilot is sufficient with some generics in certain cases.

There are obviously many changes with Wave 9+ hitting the scene.

Are you from the future?

I'm still waiting for Wave 8 to be released.

Corrected.

I may be an outlier here, but I tend not to really think of what other people will bring, and instead stick to making lists based around what I know how to fly well and what I'd like to do when I play the game. Sometimes I'm just hardcore in the mood to make a bomber run and plop horrible death in someone's face. Sometimes I'm itchin' to Intercept. Sometimes I wanna fly Rexler and his buddies (Black Squadron + Predator, which I tend to use a lot as filler). I might also make a TIE swarm composed of those and some mid-PS TIE pilots that I miss using, like Winged Gundark or Night Beast. Also a huge fan of RGT with Outmaneuver. So these things tend to end up with lists about 4-5 ships worth.

I don't stick to a formula, but I always make sure I can answer the following:

How do I fly this against a horde or swarm?
How do I deal with janky aces (Soontir, Vader, Jake)?

How do I deal with regen aces (Miranda, Poe, Corran)?

How do I deal with a boosting turret?

How do I deal with TLT spam?

One solution is to have an ace of your own, and enough firepower in the rest of the list that you can still fight the rest. (This is, by the sounds of it, your current approach.)

Another is to fly lots of aces (Be they Soontir+Vader, brobots, or the like) and rely on position and tokens against generics and PS or firepower against arc-dodgers.

Or throw in a turret (or even two), and make sure it's got enough friendly firepower.

Or throw enough models on the table you can afford to spread out your dakka against aces, and simply out-joust everything else. (Anyone tried to come up with a Death Blossom that uses CrackBlacks? I've always wondered.)

You need to have a plan. But there's lots of ways to have one.

I have been thinking about this sort of question for a while. What "rules of thumb" should be used in list building? Full disclosure I am not a tournament player but our play group is made up of a good mix of experienced war gamers, with experience dating back to Battletech. We are a competitive group but our build don't necessarily follow the tournament meta. Also I generally play rebels.

These are great questions.

How do I fly this against a horde or swarm?
How do I deal with janky aces (Soontir, Vader, Jake)?

How do I deal with regen aces (Miranda, Poe, Corran)?

How do I deal with a boosting turret?

How do I deal with TLT spam?

I would add have a way to deal with stress.

My general guidelines for rebels are:

1) At least 4 ships in a build if all of the ships are small based. I find the rebel ships are generally easy to focus down and having only 3 ships can make for an uphill fight if you lose 1. It also make my opponents have to account for more arcs if they are playing arc dodgers, 3 arcs are easier to dodge than 4.

2) 2 or 3 ships list work for me if one of the ships is a large based PWT.

3) I generally have 1 high PS Ace in the 4 ship builds and 1 mid PS ship/ace, like Tarn or Red Vet. I lean towards Poe and Horn as the high PS aces as they are so durable with regeneration and with VI can ace hunt. Horn is generally reserved for 2 or 3 ship builds that have a large base ship in them because of his point cost.

4) I want between 10-12 red dice unless there is a PWT large based ship in the build. If I am playing a PWT I am OK with 6-9 red dice as the turret will have shots almost every turn. My goal is to be able to focus enough fire to be able to remove 1 small based ship from the board per turn (3-8 damage). Being able to deal this much potential damage also helps deal with regeneration as I can focus them down pretty quickly.

5) I typically pick a Z-95 or A Wing as the 4th ship over adding more upgrades to other ships, except the aces that have specific highly efficient builds. The Z and A Wing make great blockers and if the opponent ignores them they can do a fair amount of damage, especially at range 1.

6) Unless their is a specific efficiency, like Super Dash with PTL and Kyle crew, I lean towards action independent EPTs for my aces like predator, juke, or lone wolf, etc. in order to deal with control builds.

7) I build in some sort of control option into most 4 ship builds. I either have efficient blockers (Z or A wing) or a stress/ion dealing option. I tend to lean on blocking over stress or ion, but I am very interested in the stress mechanic and I am toying with some stress based builds.

I find if I do these things I generally have a well rounded build that can deal with a variety of build archetypes, but no build is perfect. Skill and some luck will always play a role.

I don't stick to a formula, but I always make sure I can answer the following:

How do I fly this against a horde or swarm?

How do I deal with janky aces (Soontir, Vader, Jake)?

How do I deal with regen aces (Miranda, Poe, Corran)?

How do I deal with a boosting turret?

How do I deal with TLT spam?

One solution is to have an ace of your own, and enough firepower in the rest of the list that you can still fight the rest. (This is, by the sounds of it, your current approach.)

Another is to fly lots of aces (Be they Soontir+Vader, brobots, or the like) and rely on position and tokens against generics and PS or firepower against arc-dodgers.

Or throw in a turret (or even two), and make sure it's got enough friendly firepower.

Or throw enough models on the table you can afford to spread out your dakka against aces, and simply out-joust everything else. (Anyone tried to come up with a Death Blossom that uses CrackBlacks? I've always wondered.)

You need to have a plan. But there's lots of ways to have one.

Great post, Reiver, as usual.

Want a simple advice?
You want to have at least 12 red dice in your list.

Generally only 8 will be able to focus-fire an ace (some are blocking, others got dodged)

and that's your minimum to have a chance to pierce the layers of tokens and abilities.

Imagine yourself facing focus+evade 3 dodge vader.

you must be able to push through at least 2 dice per attack phase or you;'re toast.

Your roster power dwindles over time, aces and PWTs don't.

so it's a race against dice.

Block. aces aren't that predictable, but each has his favourite maneuver (2 hard soontir, S loop for brobots, 1 bank for superdash, 1 hard for falcon)

block this sneaky bastard and you catch him with his pants down.

Don't know if anyone has said it yet. But if you want an all generic list i have one answer. Black Sq w/ Crackshot...all the Crackshot

Don't know if anyone has said it yet. But if you want an all generic list i have one answer. Black Sq w/ Crackshot...all the Crackshot

Crackheads are fun.

​They answer the typical swarm counter (Aces that don't care about ships with 2 attack dice or fewer) with Crackshot, in addition to the typical swarm behavior of countering (e.g. blocking, deathblossoms, et c.).

Meanwhile, they're still a swarm, and so overpower ships with low agility.

There are a lot of great 'rules' here that give some great insight into how some of us build lists. I tend to stay away from pure generic lists... I like to have that named flagship pilot 'calling the shots', if you will. It could be Guri with 3x Cartel Marauders, or it could be Poe with 3x Rookies. I also have a fun imperial list that I have had a lot of success with over the past year in a casual setting (against serious lists). It is sitting somewhere around 5-0.

3x APs, Delta Squadron Pilot, and Soontir w/o stealth device- 98 points.

I actually came up with this list using some of the rules I used in the past. I was following the 12 red dice rule and the ace rule. But one other thing that helped this list rise above my other lists was that I also had an anchor in the Delta Sq. Pilot. It was also nice to have 4 ships at ps1 which are excellent for blocking. I could always nearly guarantee a white 4K due to PS 1. Even if your opponent knows it is coming, it is still more efficient than their K-Turn/T-Roll/S-Loop 99% of the time (though it would be fun to see a Defender and Ello endlessly joust back and forth).

I just got done with playing another 5-ship imperial list and the game went to time with me losing a single TIE/fo and not downing a ship. 4x Omega Squadron w/ Crackshot and Omega Leader+Juke+Comm Relay. I got one bandit down to 1 and got a Poe down to two hull, but I couldn't seal the deal before time ran out. It was probably due to my inexperience with the TIE/fo and Omega Leader, but it could have been a list building thing too. Facing Poe + Stresshog and 3x bandits is kind of rough. I had a slew of 2 attack ships. Crackshot wasn't quite enough to put me into strong damage zone.

There is no single way to build a list that fits for everyone. There are techniques that you need to achieve and goals each of your lists should bring. I will not be using these as 'rules' so much anymore, as guidelines to consider or preferences. I do not want to limit myself in future list-building.

The guidelines or preferences I have so far are:

12 red dice

At least 1x named pilot

An arc-dodging counter (through blocking, feedback array, turret, another ace, etc).

Anchor (ship with substantial health and/or defensive capability)

great thread +1