I'm currently playing a dark side using Sage, and think that the way One with the Universe is currently written doesn't make a lot of sense. As it stands, you get one white pip if you roll successes and no threats, and a black pip if you roll both successes and threats. This works great for a light side user, but for a dark sider not so much.

One would think that becoming better at Astrogation would prove beneficial, but that's not always the case for the darksider, since that would be increasing his chances to get white pips rather than black pips.

I'd say its pretty reasonable to make a house rule that, in the case of darksiders, the color of the pips is inverted in the use of this power (generating black pips with successes and no threats, and white pips with successes and threats), but is there any way to interpret this as such with RAW?

Nothing in RAW that I know of or could see with a quick glance at the book, but that sounds like a reasonable house rule.

If you are a dark side user and using dark pips then any talent which presupposes light side use, such as One with the Universe, can be used, in this case, to add a Dark pip. Now if you or your GM are someone that feels this should only be a light side ability that is another discussion. This is as per the two side bars on page 281 in F&D.

Personally, I'd stick with the talent as written, and that the dark sider was SOL unless they rolled Threat.

Given the general lore on the dark side, being in tune with the universe is about as opposite the self-serving nature of the dark side as you can get.

Of course, the PC has a very easy solution... don't put any points into Astrogation, and don't boost Intellect any further than necessary. Rolling 2 ability vs. 2 difficulty is more likely to succeed with threat, which is what they'd want to begin with, and even 3 ability vs. 2 difficulty tends to have similar results.

I'm actually ok with the idea that darksiders find it difficult to make use of some talents. It's the easy path to power, but not the true path to power. That it has drawbacks pretty much fits with how this setting uses it. If you're playing a darksider then you need to be willing to deal with the possibility that not all options are open to you.

I'm actually ok with the idea that darksiders find it difficult to make use of some talents. It's the easy path to power, but not the true path to power. That it has drawbacks pretty much fits with how this setting uses it. If you're playing a darksider then you need to be willing to deal with the possibility that not all options are open to you.

There are Talents specifically designed for DarkSiders that a LightSider would hesitate to go near and there are no suggested house rules for changing them to Lightside Talents (I'm thinking of Intimidating, Fearsome, Terrify, Prey on the Weak and Baleful Gaze).

But there is a use for this talent for a DarkSider, if the player is Roleplaying the redemption story of that character. This talent is a great way to ensure a DarSider can use the force more reliably when they are trying to minimise their Conflict

Make sure you have read the Talent description too, this is a once per session Talent, so its good but you could easily waste it.

I'm actually ok with the idea that darksiders find it difficult to make use of some talents. It's the easy path to power, but not the true path to power. That it has drawbacks pretty much fits with how this setting uses it. If you're playing a darksider then you need to be willing to deal with the possibility that not all options are open to you.

There are Talents specifically designed for DarkSiders that a LightSider would hesitate to go near and there are no suggested house rules for changing them to Lightside Talents (I'm thinking of Intimidating, Fearsome, Terrify, Prey on the Weak and Baleful Gaze).

But there is a use for this talent for a DarkSider, if the player is Roleplaying the redemption story of that character. This talent is a great way to ensure a DarSider can use the force more reliably when they are trying to minimise their Conflict

Well sure, you could take it and play up redemption, I just wouldn't cut them any slack. They wouldn't be able to get any real use out of it until they are redeemed. That path to redemption should be hard afterall.

I'm actually ok with the idea that darksiders find it difficult to make use of some talents. It's the easy path to power, but not the true path to power. That it has drawbacks pretty much fits with how this setting uses it. If you're playing a darksider then you need to be willing to deal with the possibility that not all options are open to you.

There are Talents specifically designed for DarkSiders that a LightSider would hesitate to go near and there are no suggested house rules for changing them to Lightside Talents (I'm thinking of Intimidating, Fearsome, Terrify, Prey on the Weak and Baleful Gaze).

But there is a use for this talent for a DarkSider, if the player is Roleplaying the redemption story of that character. This talent is a great way to ensure a DarSider can use the force more reliably when they are trying to minimise their Conflict

Well sure, you could take it and play up redemption, I just wouldn't cut them any slack. They wouldn't be able to get any real use out of it until they are redeemed. That path to redemption should be hard afterall.

Oh, definitely the path to redemption is hard, to use that Lightside pip still requires a Destiny Point flip and 1 strain as per normal, its just ensuring that they have at least 1 point to spend that wont give them Conflict.

There are Talents specifically designed for DarkSiders that a LightSider would hesitate to go near and there are no suggested house rules for changing them to Lightside Talents (I'm thinking of Intimidating, Fearsome, Terrify, Prey on the Weak and Baleful Gaze).

But there is a use for this talent for a DarkSider, if the player is Roleplaying the redemption story of that character. This talent is a great way to ensure a DarkSider can use the force more reliably when they are trying to minimize their Conflict

Well honestly I got to say I prescribe more to the Grey Jedi Code in regards to these powers. I know not many people on here prescribe to that belief but if one looks at Mara Jade, Kam Solusar, Kyle Katarn or Starkiller's clone they used dark side powers for a good long time and came back. However, I do believe that all of them would of held onto some of those talents just for the "Oh, Poodoo" factor. I mean seriously how many times did Mara cow Luke or Kyle unnerve a stormtrooper or darkside user with those talents after the academy was established? Now I am not saying that conflict was not received but unless you are using these powers every other scene you shouldn't acquire all that much conflict for them. Also we aren't talking a huge jump or dump on the Morality line unless as I said you are using them a whole lot. No, if I was to stay true to my character concept his lightsaber skills would be minimized just so he could use the "To the Pain" Speech Wesley makes in "Princess Bride". Cause come on we all want to make that speech lol. What I am saying is again it comes down to training and belief systems in for example Kam and Mara were pretty much trained in those early on as part of Dark Side pack Palpatine gathered and Kyle didn't really know better half the time he just went with what worked. Sometimes old habits die hard.

I'll agree completely that all those Talents listed can (and probably should!) be used by grey Force Users, and creates great role play moments. We do differ on the idea that One with the Universe even needs changing, but really thats down to opinions and personal preference. If the group you (or i) game with are happy with the call then thats as far as it needs to go. Personally i think its a little unfair to the Redemption story PC, but even that isn't exactly game breaking. It's not a talent that is actually required to progress so House Rule if you want or just don't buy it, not every Talent in a tree fits every PC's story.

Talents, Force Powers, Conflict, and Morality aren't written with the Jedi Gray Code in mind (being that the Jedi Grey Code that canon seems to support isn't the use of darkside powers for good but differing opinions with the Council). I never buy into the whole cutting people slack for making use of darkside powers to do good things. Sure it's fun to do when I'm playing Force Unleashed or KotoR/TOR. But I also know that's not the point behind the Force and how it is pitched to work. It's a fun detour in a video game because it's fun to create havoc. It's a horrible roleplay idea in that it for the most part the entire Grey Jedi thing is just an excuse to use darkside powers without actually dealing with being a darksider.

Most of the examples of Jedi using dark side powers come from video games, which even before the canon wipe was a horrid indicator of what sort of effects a Jedi should be using, since the games were more interested in offering an enjoyable play experience rather than having any sort of consistency with the established lore of the time.

The examples that bull30548 listed are ones that sat in the 30 to 70 point range for Morality, being "grey" only that they weren't a confirmed dark side but also weren't light side paragons.

As Kael noted, the current definition of a "grey" Jedi is someone like Qui-Gon, who is willing to disagree with Council and Code to act in tune with the Living Force and "little steps" to promoting good in the galaxy, where Council and Code are generally more concerned with the Unifying/Cosmic Force and focused on the big picture. Dark side Force powers like Unleash and Harm are still of the dark side, and to be avoided if at all possible. Things like "Electric Judgment" should be plot elements and incredibly rare (the only two known users in Legends were both Jedi Masters), not a routine go-to effect for the PCs.

Talents, Force Powers, Conflict, and Morality aren't written with the Jedi Gray Code in mind (being that the Jedi Grey Code that canon seems to support isn't the use of darkside powers for good but differing opinions with the Council). I never buy into the whole cutting people slack for making use of darkside powers to do good things. Sure it's fun to do when I'm playing Force Unleashed or KotoR/TOR. But I also know that's not the point behind the Force and how it is pitched to work. It's a fun detour in a video game because it's fun to create havoc. It's a horrible roleplay idea in that it for the most part the entire Grey Jedi thing is just an excuse to use darkside powers without actually dealing with being a darksider.

This! This in so many ways!

I agree that the talent as written fits the fluff, as one could argue that indeed using the dark side runs opposite to being in tune with the universe (which is what the name of the talent seems to suggest is happening). However, I still think it could be argued the other way around. Maybe for darksiders this power works by meditating on submitting the universe to one's will, or something along those lines. Becoming one with the universe is generally interpreted as abandoning one's self to join with a greater whole, but it could as easily be interpreted as joining with and gaining control of a greater whole. We know for a fact that Sith meditate and keep meditation chambers as much as Jedi. (This isn't necessarily my personal view regarding the subject, but a priori I think it could be argued both ways).

On the other hand, mechanically speaking I don't think this talent is comparable with others such as Terrify and Baleful Gaze for darksiders. Those talents merely give you 1 Conflict each session, which most of the time will amount to nothing when you make the roll at the end of said session. While OwtU, on the other hand, is one of the biggest perks of being a Sage and is useful to darksiders with low Astrogation, and becomes increasingly useless as they get better at said skill. Even if I were convinced about the fluff, I'm not convinced this is mechanically sound, even though I'm aware the devs have said "this rpg balances the mechanics with the fluff".

Not sure how insight it will give, but there's a "rationalist" Sith character in SWTOR who says things like "The Force is my servant" and "may the Force serve you well."