Who thinks this could be enough fighters as an anti bomber CAP and, if they survive or don't come up against bombers, a decent secondary bomber group with 3 red Bomber dice and 3 black dice

80 points

2 x A-Wings

3 x X-Wings

1 x Jan Ors

Who thinks this could be enough fighters as an anti bomber CAP and, if they survive or don't come up against bombers, a decent secondary bomber group with 3 red Bomber dice and 3 black dice

you?

ooh me next, what has two thumbs and is being a smartass on the internet?

*two thumbs up pointed at self* this guy!

If you're looking at just 80 points for squads, this make-up seems pretty flexible for the price-point. Three X's with four anti-squadron, and two A's with three anti-squadron and Counter 2 will put decent hurt on a generic TIE swarm, and shred non-Firespray Bombers if there's no anti-squadron escort. Jan's Intel and Braces will help with mobility and survivability, and that's decent anti-ship fire if there's minimal squadrons to push out. It's also three deployments worth of squadrons (useful for stalling deployment of ships) and can be activated by two AFIIs or an MC-80 and Escort Neb, so lots of options for dual-purpose carriers.

The potential issue I see is against dedicated Intel bomber swarms that aren't interested in dogfighting and would rather bomb your ships (10+ black die Rhymer-ball, 4+ B-wings, etc). The only current counter in the game is to move your ships out of bombing range (easier against B's if you have fast-moving Rebel ships, almost impossible against an Intel-supported Rhymer ball supported by Boosted Comms), or to destroy the Intel ship and/or bombers before they get into range to nuke your ships. This particular list will do fine against generic 3-health TIEs, but against 5 health TIE bombers or 6 health Firesprays, the only real threat to the bombers are the three X-wings (since A-wing damage is paltry if the bombers aren't interested in triggering Counter). Same problem if you go for the Intel squad and have to deal with five-hull Escorts (5-hull TIE Advanced with Counter 1 from Dengar, or 5-hull X-wings/7-hull YT-1300s supported by braces from a Jan clone).

In that sense, I'd be concerned about the effectiveness of this set-up against a dedicated bombing group supported by Intel. But short of a fully-kited out anti-squadron fighter force, there aren't that many ways of dealing with that kind of force right now anyway.

If you're looking at just 80 points for squads, this make-up seems pretty flexible for the price-point. Three X's with four anti-squadron, and two A's with three anti-squadron and Counter 2 will put decent hurt on a generic TIE swarm, and shred non-Firespray Bombers if there's no anti-squadron escort. Jan's Intel and Braces will help with mobility and survivability, and that's decent anti-ship fire if there's minimal squadrons to push out. It's also three deployments worth of squadrons (useful for stalling deployment of ships) and can be activated by two AFIIs or an MC-80 and Escort Neb, so lots of options for dual-purpose carriers.

The potential issue I see is against dedicated Intel bomber swarms that aren't interested in dogfighting and would rather bomb your ships (10+ black die Rhymer-ball, 4+ B-wings, etc). The only current counter in the game is to move your ships out of bombing range (easier against B's if you have fast-moving Rebel ships, almost impossible against an Intel-supported Rhymer ball supported by Boosted Comms), or to destroy the Intel ship and/or bombers before they get into range to nuke your ships. This particular list will do fine against generic 3-health TIEs, but against 5 health TIE bombers or 6 health Firesprays, the only real threat to the bombers are the three X-wings (since A-wing damage is paltry if the bombers aren't interested in triggering Counter). Same problem if you go for the Intel squad and have to deal with five-hull Escorts (5-hull TIE Advanced with Counter 1 from Dengar, or 5-hull X-wings/7-hull YT-1300s supported by braces from a Jan clone).

In that sense, I'd be concerned about the effectiveness of this set-up against a dedicated bombing group supported by Intel. But short of a fully-kited out anti-squadron fighter force, there aren't that many ways of dealing with that kind of force right now anyway.

Thanks for the advice mate.

Yeah I was a bit concerned that this might not be effective enough against a Fireball. The only hope against said fireball would be to throw out as much damage onto the TA escort and then onto Dengar.

To that effect do you perhaps think that I should try and drop the A's for 2 more X-Wing Squadrons? Think that will be more effective?

Also.. Jan needs X-wings (Escort) to stay alive and X-wings loves Jans braces... ... But A-wings wants to be free of escorts so they can get shot at and use that nice counter 2..

A-Wings lost a lot of potential due to Intel sadly. They had a bit of a better time with Chiraneau, but now they're pretty useless in a dedicated anti-fighter role unless you spend lots of points in having lots of them.

Namely they lost the benefit of Counter 2.

Where they can be useful is that, for how cheap they are, having that black dice in anti-ship and speed 5 is awesome. 75% damage chance on ships is pretty amazing for 11 points and such a speedy fighter.

So, lots of X-Wings that throw lots of blue dice against ships is what you need to go hunt bombers down. Properly supported by good AA barrage ships as well (with medium range, because this is where the bomber squads will operate).

I like it. Will slow down a Rhymer ball and work well against ships if your opponent didn't bring any fighters.

Squad positioning is also really important for dealing with Intel as well as all of the Imperial squad buffing shenanigans.

My opponents are usually really bummed when I position around Fel or there Advanceds to shoot down Howlrunner or Dengar.

Since Wave 2 hit, I think the a-wing is more properly costed now- it was honestly a bit too cheap pre-intel pre-anything needing an escort.

I try to take dos xx's with Jan at a minimum, though I prefer to take at least 6. I got a fever, and the only solution is more x-wings!

Thanks for all the advice gents.

Seems more X wings are he way forward.

Kinda nice to see X wings being in fashion again

A-Wings lost a lot of potential due to Intel sadly. They had a bit of a better time with Chiraneau, but now they're pretty useless in a dedicated anti-fighter role unless you spend lots of points in having lots of them.

Namely they lost the benefit of Counter 2.

Can you explain this? INTEL doesn't interact with COUNTER, and I can't see how Chiraneau interacts with A-Wings at all, except by way of shooting at them.

A-Wings lost a lot of potential due to Intel sadly. They had a bit of a better time with Chiraneau, but now they're pretty useless in a dedicated anti-fighter role unless you spend lots of points in having lots of them.

Namely they lost the benefit of Counter 2.

Can you explain this? INTEL doesn't interact with COUNTER, and I can't see how Chiraneau interacts with A-Wings at all, except by way of shooting at them.

I suspect he is referring to the fact that people can ignore Counter by not bothering to shoot at A-Wings now with Intel. Just bring your Intel ship into range and ignore the A's. Chiraneau had a smiliar affect on Counter, but more limited, so it wasn't as bad for A-Wings.

I think what was meant is that things don't get tied up like before with Intel everywhere. Chiraneau used to allow squadrons to escape A-Wangs before, to a limited extent. Maybe, and I'm just rudely jumping in here so I could be wrong, but saying they "lost" counter means things don't have to sit and attack them to cause the counter to go off.

Thanks guys for clarifying my posts for me, you read my mind with acute precision !

With Chiraneau, you could escape at speed 2-3 (depending on whether you had Corrupter), so a good positioning of A-Wings would make sure that the escaping enemy fighters would be engaged.

Now, with Intel, you don't care whether you are engaged or not.

EDIT : Chirpy still has value I feel, but in a more defensive fashion. With the Rhymer/Chiraneau/Corrupter combo, you can force your bomber wing to move back and still have range on many targets, hopefully drawing the enemy interception away from control range of his ships. Then you move back in and still have range on lots of stuff

I think the new role for A-Wings has changed from dedicated interceptors to annoying buggers with their black dice. You can ignore them sure, but man they'll chip away at your ship's shield and if you come to deal with them, boom you get Counter 2. Much like how the guy who won the world used them.

EDIT 2 : Re-reading Tycho Celchu's card, it even clearly states that he can move and attack ships even if engaged. I sense much potential for shenanigans with the A-Wings from now on.

Dengar basically took up Chirpy's role and for greater battlefield application as well.

Ah, I see. I misinterpreted your absolutes. Thanks for clearing that up for me everyone.

I managed to Stall a fireball for 4 turns with Solo/YT-2400,Wedge Antilles, X-wing and a random Y-wing. It played no part in the game for my enemy. other then fighting off my own cheaper squadron force. Solo being able to jump in and engage the Fireball right off the hop put the entire thing in disorder. Essentially Dengar had a problem, he had to stay put to allow the fireball to escape my fighters, allowing my own fighters to blow him away in short order. So far the Fireball has been annoying, but like everything else it has its flaws.

Who thinks this could be enough fighters as an anti bomber CAP and, if they survive or don't come up against bombers, a decent secondary bomber group with 3 red Bomber dice and 3 black dice

80 points

2 x A-Wings

3 x X-Wings

1 x Jan Ors

About the right balance I'd say.

If go for maybe 4 X, and 1 A. One A wing is still useful for tying up squadrons - Dengar can only be in one place at a time. Two might be overkill.

You should try to fit in Flight controllers. I have found that Xwings slinging 5 dice have a much, much better chance of getting accuracies to deny Dengar defence tokens while still inflicting damage.

I do think X's are probably better for dependable anti-fighter damage (A's have higher potential if Counter is used, less if no one bothers to shoot at the A's), their Escort ability keeps Jan alive (the more Escorts, the longer non-IG88 squadrons have to shoot at targets that aren't Jan), and they still have Bomber. That's a ton of flexibility, which makes up for the fact that they shoot fickle reds at ships, I think. If your opponent doesn't have Intel, A's are probably the superior choice (cheaper, greater damage potential, better speed, black anti-ship die), so some local landscape observation might inform the choice.

As far as other "cheap" alternatives go, if you have Yavaris, Dutch is a great choice, too. He doesn't do a whole lot damage-wise, but he can potentially deactivate two enemy squads if you double-tap him with Yavaris (which evens the odds in your favor), and potentially three times if you have Adar (although at that point, the squadrons become less of a screen and more of a focal point of the fleet). Even without Adar or Yavaris, he's still useful, as he has three anti-squadron dice, six hull, can shut down a troublesome squad like Vader or IG-88 (if you can position around enemy Escorts), and is still useful against fleets with little-to-no squadrons.

All that said, I think your original list offers great flexibility for just 80 points, and should offer some resistance to just about any fighter core. Depending on the make-up of the rest of your fleet, that resistance might be enough to accomplish your purposes, even if you ultimately lose the fighter war to lists that max out squads.

I do think X's are probably better for dependable anti-fighter damage (A's have higher potential if Counter is used, less if no one bothers to shoot at the A's), their Escort ability keeps Jan alive (the more Escorts, the longer non-IG88 squadrons have to shoot at targets that aren't Jan), and they still have Bomber. That's a ton of flexibility, which makes up for the fact that they shoot fickle reds at ships, I think. If your opponent doesn't have Intel, A's are probably the superior choice (cheaper, greater damage potential, better speed, black anti-ship die), so some local landscape observation might inform the choice.

As far as other "cheap" alternatives go, if you have Yavaris, Dutch is a great choice, too. He doesn't do a whole lot damage-wise, but he can potentially deactivate two enemy squads if you double-tap him with Yavaris (which evens the odds in your favor), and potentially three times if you have Adar (although at that point, the squadrons become less of a screen and more of a focal point of the fleet). Even without Adar or Yavaris, he's still useful, as he has three anti-squadron dice, six hull, can shut down a troublesome squad like Vader or IG-88 (if you can position around enemy Escorts), and is still useful against fleets with little-to-no squadrons.

All that said, I think your original list offers great flexibility for just 80 points, and should offer some resistance to just about any fighter core. Depending on the make-up of the rest of your fleet, that resistance might be enough to accomplish your purposes, even if you ultimately lose the fighter war to lists that max out squads.

A few comments on your points, they sparked some memories from past games

Standard X-Wings are primarily anti-fighters platforms that can double up as a Bomber when needed. Even with Bomber, the red dice isn't that impressive (62.5% of hitting a ship, so a little over half, with 12.5% chance of double damage and 25% chance of causing a critical hit). They work well to help finish off ships when the hull is cleared, but aren't super reliable when raw power is needed to take shields down (compared to a Black Dice with Bomber, with 75% chance of causing damage with 25% hit crit).

Funnily enough, my X-Wings always hit their marks when ships have no shield and whiff completely when shields are up. I think the dice are telling me something

Dutch and Yavaris is very potent. Dutch hits like a TIE Fighter in anti-squadron and also tanks like a brick. But rather than using him offensively, Yavaris promoting getting tied up, he actually gets very good when defending because of the auto-damage he inflicts on activated squadrons if he hits them. But you have to bait the enemy interception fighters into attacking you, and have the means to tank.

To that extent, I've had great success with a Yavaris + Gallant Haven pair, escorting a mean bomber wing of Luke, Wedge, Dutch, Keyan and another Y-Wing. I make sure that Yavaris shows its generous sides for bigger coverage of anti-fighter barrage, and make sure the ball is within range 1 of Gallant.

Brace will, in most cases, reduce the incoming damage to 1 or 2, which means that with Gallant they take virtually no damage or around 1 per squadron the enemy throws at the ball. A 6 dice Interceptor (with Howlrunner and Flight Controllers) will score 3 hits on average and 1.5 accuracies (not counting swarm because rerolling one dice is a pain ). If only 1 accuracy is rolled, you can still brace, for a total of 2 damage reduced to 1 by the Gallant, if 2 Accuracies are rolled, your fighter reduces the damage down to 2 thanks to the Gallant. It means that on average it requires 3 boosted TIE Interceptors to down an ace !

If they haven't killed either Dutch or Wedge, now you can double tap them for good damage (18 blue dice total on 2 ships, plus potentially 2 extra damage from Dutch !). I've caught a lot of unsuspecting Imperial Combos with their pants down with that move.

If the enemy doesn't have any capable squadron force, no need to be defensive, you can just go attack ships with all of these black dice.

Yavaris + Adar Tallon is good on the offensive, definitely. But to get 2 extra activation from a single squadron requires much logistics and I'm not sure that's really worth it as a major offensive. Sure, if the enemy has no good anti-squadron, then definitely, but I think a defensive use is the principal goal of Yavaris.

I do think X's are probably better for dependable anti-fighter damage (A's have higher potential if Counter is used, less if no one bothers to shoot at the A's), their Escort ability keeps Jan alive (the more Escorts, the longer non-IG88 squadrons have to shoot at targets that aren't Jan), and they still have Bomber. That's a ton of flexibility, which makes up for the fact that they shoot fickle reds at ships, I think. If your opponent doesn't have Intel, A's are probably the superior choice (cheaper, greater damage potential, better speed, black anti-ship die), so some local landscape observation might inform the choice.

As far as other "cheap" alternatives go, if you have Yavaris, Dutch is a great choice, too. He doesn't do a whole lot damage-wise, but he can potentially deactivate two enemy squads if you double-tap him with Yavaris (which evens the odds in your favor), and potentially three times if you have Adar (although at that point, the squadrons become less of a screen and more of a focal point of the fleet). Even without Adar or Yavaris, he's still useful, as he has three anti-squadron dice, six hull, can shut down a troublesome squad like Vader or IG-88 (if you can position around enemy Escorts), and is still useful against fleets with little-to-no squadrons.

All that said, I think your original list offers great flexibility for just 80 points, and should offer some resistance to just about any fighter core. Depending on the make-up of the rest of your fleet, that resistance might be enough to accomplish your purposes, even if you ultimately lose the fighter war to lists that max out squads.

A few comments on your points, they sparked some memories from past games

Standard X-Wings are primarily anti-fighters platforms that can double up as a Bomber when needed. Even with Bomber, the red dice isn't that impressive (62.5% of hitting a ship, so a little over half, with 12.5% chance of double damage and 25% chance of causing a critical hit). They work well to help finish off ships when the hull is cleared, but aren't super reliable when raw power is needed to take shields down (compared to a Black Dice with Bomber, with 75% chance of causing damage with 25% hit crit).

Funnily enough, my X-Wings always hit their marks when ships have no shield and whiff completely when shields are up. I think the dice are telling me something

Dutch and Yavaris is very potent. Dutch hits like a TIE Fighter in anti-squadron and also tanks like a brick. But rather than using him offensively, Yavaris promoting getting tied up, he actually gets very good when defending because of the auto-damage he inflicts on activated squadrons if he hits them. But you have to bait the enemy interception fighters into attacking you, and have the means to tank.

To that extent, I've had great success with a Yavaris + Gallant Haven pair, escorting a mean bomber wing of Luke, Wedge, Dutch, Keyan and another Y-Wing. I make sure that Yavaris shows its generous sides for bigger coverage of anti-fighter barrage, and make sure the ball is within range 1 of Gallant.

Brace will, in most cases, reduce the incoming damage to 1 or 2, which means that with Gallant they take virtually no damage or around 1 per squadron the enemy throws at the ball. A 6 dice Interceptor (with Howlrunner and Flight Controllers) will score 3 hits on average and 1.5 accuracies (not counting swarm because rerolling one dice is a pain ). If only 1 accuracy is rolled, you can still brace, for a total of 2 damage reduced to 1 by the Gallant, if 2 Accuracies are rolled, your fighter reduces the damage down to 2 thanks to the Gallant. It means that on average it requires 3 boosted TIE Interceptors to down an ace !

If they haven't killed either Dutch or Wedge, now you can double tap them for good damage (18 blue dice total on 2 ships, plus potentially 2 extra damage from Dutch !). I've caught a lot of unsuspecting Imperial Combos with their pants down with that move.

If the enemy doesn't have any capable squadron force, no need to be defensive, you can just go attack ships with all of these black dice.

Yavaris + Adar Tallon is good on the offensive, definitely. But to get 2 extra activation from a single squadron requires much logistics and I'm not sure that's really worth it as a major offensive. Sure, if the enemy has no good anti-squadron, then definitely, but I think a defensive use is the principal goal of Yavaris.

Great points. I need more table time with GH + Yavaris (tried it once recently, and chickened out on the approach with Gallant ). But there's definitely great potential there, and the inclusion of Intel means the squads can actually keep up with the Haven, which is a definite plus.

I agree the defensive use of Yavaris is easier to pull off, and the offensive use is much easier to use on ships (especially large ships, which tend to have somewhat-predictable flight paths) than on squadrons where Intel makes final positions almost impossible to determine. Having lots of squads + initiative really helps, as it gives a better chance to set Dutch up properly at the end of the squadron phase, and gives him a pretty good chance to deactivate a couple generic fighters (unless you're targeting heroes with Scatter, all it takes is a single hit result). I used a double-tap from Yavaris to shut down two 6-die, Counter 4 interceptors for two rounds in a Howlrunner/Dengar ball recently, and the lack of 24 ant-squadron die over two rounds really helped the survivability of my squads.

But if you don't have initiative, or are light on the squadrons, I agree Yavaris is more useful defensively, at least against squadrons.

Indeed ! In my staple Rebel Wave 1 list, I have the initiative but still use Yavaris defensively unless I'm facing a Rhymerball. In which case it's full on Dutch triple activation and ionizing the hell ouf ot them so they can't escape ! I'll think about your experience with Dutch, it looks promising

The reason being, having Gallant Haven allows me to rest assured that the squadrons with Brace will probably survive, which means I don't have to activate first. That way, I can activate a ship that likes to be in the danger zone like the Dodonna's Pride first, for an attack run and then zip away.

It's okay to be cautious with the Gallant Haven Best use I found for him was to go speed 2 on a tangent vector circling around the middle of board (that allows the squadrons to move straight up at speed 3 while being in the range of the Gallant, or maybe I was moving it speed 3, I don't remember...).

It's a ship that can tank, but it doesn't take too keenly being in the middle of the fray (due to no redundancy on the Brace/Redirects and having the Evades). I think that the AFMK2 A is much better used aggressively when trying to line up a flanking move ending up your round on a flank of a ship trying to double arc it.

I'll PM you my list by the way, and I'd like to know yours ! Cool to take inspiration !