The Ackbar Gunnery Team combo took me off surprised as an inexperienced Imperial right after Massing at Sullust. I did play with 2 Victory and 1 Gladiator, along with a few squadrons. I played my list as a gunline which worked okay with Wave 1 meta, but was bad against that specific combo (I even had Opening Salvo on my objectives, which the Ackbar player gladly took). By Turn 3 the game was done and I think I only destroyed 1 Corvette overall.

A few key points to note from that game :

1) The Gladiator flanking his front and rear arcs was pretty amazing. Ackbar loses so much efficiency.

2) Because of that, positioning on an interception course is almost mandatory.

3) Squadrons allow to delay positioning

4) Imperials are now outclasses as a gunline and I think this pushes them back to a brawling playstyle exclusively

5) Victories, being prime carriers poitns for points, could help out the Imperial by offering 3 deployment if they coordinate 4 squadrons.

6) Pairs of Rogues allow for cheap placement of ships, delaying where you key pieces will need to be.

7) I don't think speed 2 was such a liability for the Victory. I did manage to reach black range on the Ackbar fleet without much trouble. It was dropping one Victory to speed 1 early game that sealed the deal.

8) Assault Frigates are scariers than Calamaris due to Gunnery Team, but they still die out relatively easily.

9) Captain Needa giving an Evade on a big ship should help a lot with tanky ISD 2 builds.

@ardaedhel, could you point me to some battle reports showing these Imperial victories without ECMs against Ackbar and Home One? This is one of those things I need to see to believe. Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't found an Imperial list employing good anti-Ackbar strategies yet.

Sorry, I'm on vacation with just my phone right now, so I don't really have the horsepower to go back searching through bat reps. They're out there though. Lyraeus has been beating Ackbar with ISD's; I believe WWPDSteven batrepped an Ackbar/Home One defeat; Ackbar posted somewhere around a 60% victory margin in the Vassal Holiday Tourney, so you should be able to find vlogs or batreps over there.

I've done it myself, even though I very rarely play Imperial. In brief: I beat a Home One + 3x TRCR90 list with Vader IGRR by charging my ISD at the nose of Home One, escorted by Instigator, while simultaneously throwing Impetuous and Demolisher at the side arc. Attacking Home One is all about forcing it to choose what it's going to kill. I lost Demolisher in that game without having fired a shot, but her sacrifice gave me time to get two close range Raider shots and get my ISD positioned to cut Home One off. I just ignored the CR90's strategically because they kill over time, and have little actual stopping power.

Sadly I haven't gotten a chance to curb stomp a Home One/AF2/AF2 list yet: nobody here runs that because they all recognize how completely boned that list is against fighters... and people in my area bring fighters.

/messed up the quote.

Ardaedhel, would you kindly name some of those ample options, preferably some that are not entirely squadron-dependant? Till then, ackbars synergy with gunnery teams and the "hey take a free acc"-home one remains for me what a demolisher must have ment for rebells in wave 1. Its beatable but is mostly not fun to beat, and it takes a superior understanding of the game to beat a basic tactic.

See above for at least one that could be run as all-ship (I had 2 TIE Advanced in that game iirc). Clontroper has been tearing it up with, I believe, GGRRR. When you have that many ships that hit that hard, it doesn't matter of one or two get one-shotted on the way in, it'll still kill anything you decide needs to die. I've seen VVRRR take them down with the boxing-in strategy; I've seen Ackbar and Home One get tabled by 4 Glads and Rogues (admittedly, this was run by an incredibly skilled local player).

All that said: it absolutely does not take a superior understanding of the game to beat this list. It takes a superior understanding of the game to beat this list with one hand tied behind your back. Squadrons have been demonstrated multiple times to hard counter most Ackbar lists. If you don't like playing squadrons, that's fine, as it's absolutely your choice how you want to play the game. But don't gripe about not being able to beat a list, or call for nerfs to a specific combo, if you refuse to use the tools that have been proven to work against it.

The VSD has had its day for all the reasons mentioned here, bar one; it's not so much speed as manoeuvrability that does for the Victory.

An MC80 has the same maximum speed, but it has yaw-clicks at both speed 1 and speed 2, which the VSD lacks. Given that the MC80 also has support teams, that allows you to make it twice as manoeuvrable as a VSD when using a Navigate command (either through Engine Techs or Nav Team + Token, whichever you prefer). With engine techs, you can actually take the MC80 up to Speed 3, to keep pace with the rest of the Rebel fleet. So the Rebels have a more powerful ship with better arcs and the same hull, which can turn more easily.

Likewise, the ISD has a yaw-click at intervals 1 and 2 when travelling at Speed 2, allowing it to keep up with the Demolisher and other Gladiators in the fleet. It also means that it can turn pretty sharp-ish when it needs to with a Navigate command.

Basically, you get good value for your points with a VSD, just as long as you don't need it to keep pace with the rest of your fleet. If you have a fleet of VSDs, and you can fly it right, then you might do alright, but you're still going to be out-manoeuvred by every single other thing you go up against. And, as has been pointed out, approaching at Speed 2 gives red-dice-heavy Rebels plenty of time to lay some nasty volleys onto you.

What the VSD desperately needs is either a Support Team, to allow it to at least keep up with the rest of its fleet, or it needs some defensive options. It does have a role as a carrier, but I for one can't really afford to buy multiple packs of the Fighter upgrades just to use a quarter (or less in the case of 'Rogues and Villains') of them in my fleet in order to build a credible bomber wing.

Certainly for me, and I would describe myself as a "casual player with a competitive streak", the Victory just doesn't offer enough to any fleet that isn't built around Victory-class Star Destroyers, or around a heavy bomber wing.

And I personally have much more fun with my ISD and Gladiators than I do with my VSDs, which is the real nail in the coffin for them. The great thing about the ISD and the GSD is that I get to enjoy pulling daring manoeuvres and risky turns to get enemies into arc and avoid the fire zones of the filthy Rebels - and that's a game I just don't get to play with the VSDs, as they're too clunky to do anything "fun" with, at least for me. Especially as I don't find the Squadron game as rewarding as the real ship-to-ship combat elements of the game.

@ardaedhel, could you point me to some battle reports showing these Imperial victories without ECMs against Ackbar and Home One? This is one of those things I need to see to believe. Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't found an Imperial list employing good anti-Ackbar strategies yet.

Sorry, I'm on vacation with just my phone right now, so I don't really have the horsepower to go back searching through bat reps. They're out there though. Lyraeus has been beating Ackbar with ISD's; I believe WWPDSteven batrepped an Ackbar/Home One defeat; Ackbar posted somewhere around a 60% victory margin in the Vassal Holiday Tourney, so you should be able to find vlogs or batreps over there.

I've done it myself, even though I very rarely play Imperial. In brief: I beat a Home One + 3x TRCR90 list with Vader IGRR by charging my ISD at the nose of Home One, escorted by Instigator, while simultaneously throwing Impetuous and Demolisher at the side arc. Attacking Home One is all about forcing it to choose what it's going to kill. I lost Demolisher in that game without having fired a shot, but her sacrifice gave me time to get two close range Raider shots and get my ISD positioned to cut Home One off. I just ignored the CR90's strategically because they kill over time, and have little actual stopping power.

Sadly I haven't gotten a chance to curb stomp a Home One/AF2/AF2 list yet: nobody here runs that because they all recognize how completely boned that list is against fighters... and people in my area bring fighters.

/messed up the quote.

Ardaedhel, would you kindly name some of those ample options, preferably some that are not entirely squadron-dependant? Till then, ackbars synergy with gunnery teams and the "hey take a free acc"-home one remains for me what a demolisher must have ment for rebells in wave 1. Its beatable but is mostly not fun to beat, and it takes a superior understanding of the game to beat a basic tactic.

See above for at least one that could be run as all-ship (I had 2 TIE Advanced in that game iirc). Clontroper has been tearing it up with, I believe, GGRRR. When you have that many ships that hit that hard, it doesn't matter of one or two get one-shotted on the way in, it'll still kill anything you decide needs to die. I've seen VVRRR take them down with the boxing-in strategy; I've seen Ackbar and Home One get tabled by 4 Glads and Rogues (admittedly, this was run by an incredibly skilled local player).

All that said: it absolutely does not take a superior understanding of the game to beat this list. It takes a superior understanding of the game to beat this list with one hand tied behind your back. Squadrons have been demonstrated multiple times to hard counter most Ackbar lists. If you don't like playing squadrons, that's fine, as it's absolutely your choice how you want to play the game. But don't gripe about not being able to beat a list, or call for nerfs to a specific combo, if you refuse to use the tools that have been proven to work against it.

Easy man. I am not calling any nerfs or gripe around. It is a forum, people are here to state opinions, and I would say I have kept it all clean and without personal attacks. I still stay with my opinion that using ackbar with success takes less understanding of the game than beating him, and your post states little to counter that. Squadrons have not been demonstrated to be an ackbar counter, rhymer/fireballs have been, however. It is not that I dont like playing squadrons, I just dont like bringing one oddly balanced guy (Rhymer) to counter another one.

1. He did not personally attack you. He said if you feel x but don't utilize y then z.

2. Welcome to the internet

3. To address your point. rhymer/fireballs are squadrons ergo squadrons do counter.

Now I understand your point about not wanting to bring the thing that everyone says is working. I am about to start testing a fleet that doesn't use intel officer on the big ships but uses a screed/OP/avenger combo.Everyone says why don't you just slap intel on it and I shrug and say I want to do something different. That is fine but I understand the putting intel on would probably be more reliable. Play around and test a bit and see if you can come up with a different approach to squadron counter for this situation. I would be interested to see any results.

To get back to Victories : how would you guys use the Corrupter ? Fleets of 4 Bombers ? Bombers mixed with Interceptors (weird idea, but they both go at the same speed with Corrupter...) ? Rhymer extra sniper ? Without Rhymer at all ?

So get together with your friends and play an 800 point game?

Nothing is stopping you, they just recommend 400 points and enforce that at tournaments.

Also, you're discounting the possibility of an 'epic play' equivalent in the future.

I do, I have close to 3000 points per side..................My main point is the 400 point's..................I guess the FFG police have everyone running scared...............OMG!!!!!!!!!............. we cannot break the

400 point limit .....................quick everyone put away the extra gear the FFG police are here to kick us out of the tourney................... ARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

FFG Policeman................."Sorry folks............ nothing here to see, carry on with your games.................Scuze me son according to article 10-7 you are gaming with an exceeded points value, you are to pack up

your gear and leave the building"............... I play massive games.........because that is the best way to play the game. Massed fleets and real task driven objectives. So I only play epic scale games, and have real fleet lists. IE) Flagships, squadrons, fleet pickets etc. 400 points are a waste of time.

If FFG ret-conned the Victory to have Support Teams that would do the trick, and fit its new battlefield role.

Engine Techs = speed 3 Vic

Projection Experts = shield battery

Nav Team = better handling

Engineering Team = slugger

To get back to Victories : how would you guys use the Corrupter ? Fleets of 4 Bombers ? Bombers mixed with Interceptors (weird idea, but they both go at the same speed with Corrupter...) ? Rhymer extra sniper ? Without Rhymer at all ?

I have a build where I run a dedicated VSD as a carrier with a heavy bomber wing. That is when I like to use corrupter. I just use a Raider as a pocket carrier to sling a couple fighters forward as well.

To get back to Victories : how would you guys use the Corrupter ? Fleets of 4 Bombers ? Bombers mixed with Interceptors (weird idea, but they both go at the same speed with Corrupter...) ? Rhymer extra sniper ? Without Rhymer at all ?

I have a build where I run a dedicated VSD as a carrier with a heavy bomber wing. That is when I like to use corrupter. I just use a Raider as a pocket carrier to sling a couple fighters forward as well.

Thanks ! I guess I need an extra fighter pack 2 Bombers feels really on the short side, and having a large Rhymerball of 4 would be soooo awesome to play (I was mainly playing Rebels, so just one of each upgrade on the Imperials). Just 2 TIE Bombers feel a little short. TIE Advanced are good because they are flexible, but they don't really cover for 2 Bombers

To get back to Victories : how would you guys use the Corrupter ? Fleets of 4 Bombers ? Bombers mixed with Interceptors (weird idea, but they both go at the same speed with Corrupter...) ? Rhymer extra sniper ? Without Rhymer at all ?

I have a build where I run a dedicated VSD as a carrier with a heavy bomber wing. That is when I like to use corrupter. I just use a Raider as a pocket carrier to sling a couple fighters forward as well.

I run corruptor with chiraneu and a rhymer fireball. Saves you needing intel and corruptor would work with the firesprays. It gives them spd4 to keep up with rhymer and gives them normal spd3 when engaged if you want to chiraneu them out of engagement

If FFG ret-conned the Victory to have Support Teams that would do the trick, and fit its new battlefield role.

A really simple little upgrade, something daft like a Turbolaser upgrade that costs a couple of points and gives you a Support Team slot. Would dissuade people from applying it to everything - I'd never give up X17s on my ISD - but would allow you to retrofit your antiquated combat ships into credible support vessels, exactly as you've outlined.

You could potentially do a straight swap for a Weapons Team slot, but Weapons Teams still have useful stuff like 'Flight Controllers' and .Ruthless Strategists'.

Of course, I still think the VSD would benefit from the Defensive Retrofit upgrade - a lack of manoeuvrability is more acceptable when you can credibly resist damage.

Hrm, a proposal as far as that goes:

Training officer - points X - Officer slot - You may use a support team in place of a weapons team, or a weapons team in place of a support team.

X = 3 on Small, 8 on Medium and 15 on large.

This eliminates the officer slot, as well, and makes some sense.

Alternatively, lower cost for just support teams in place of weapons.

Support Training Officer - points 3 - You may use a support team in place of a weapons team.

Weapons Training Officer - points 15 - You may use a weapons team in place of a support team.

Realistically, the Weapons teams are a lot better than the support teams. I'm not speaking of just Gunnery Teams (That on Ackbared MC80s, is why I think it has to be so expensive), but flight controllers on the rebel side other than on AFM2s, would be quite good, and address one of the issues with Imperial fighters being better. (When thematically, it should be the other way. Similarly, the issue with the Rebels outgunning the Imperials in terms of bigger ships.)

I do have an opponent who consistently runs a VSD-II with gun teams and expanded hangar bay as the only upgrades. It does quite well for him.

Keep in mind he doesn't lead with it (hence the choice of the II), so you either have to affirmatively go get it, or deal with it spamming squadron commands. It pushes Rhymer + Bomber + 2x TIE Advanced and then he has 2x Firesprays he usually uses with that, so it's the "fleet boss" for him.

I always wonder if one could do better, but in terms of squadron efficiency for the Imperials, it's pretty strong.

To all people that think that the VSD is weak:

Just a comparison of the VSD II and ISD II:

Advantages of the VSD:

The VSD has a better damage output vs ship per point spent than the ISD on all of his hull zone, on the front it has an average of 0.0529 vs 0.05 damage per point of the ISD.

The VSD has more shield, 0.1176 vs 0.1 shield per point spent.

The VSD has more hull point, 0.0941 vs 0.0916 hull point per point spent.

The VSD has a better squadron value, 0.352 vs 0.333 squadron value per point spent.

The VSD repair itself faster, 0.0470 vs 0.0333 engineering per point spent.

The VSD is cheaper so easier to fit into your fleet without having to cut something.

3 VSD over 2 ISD gives you more activation and a numeric superiority that can be useful for flanking.

Advantages of the ISD:

The ISD has a better maneuverability at speed 2, one more yaw .

The ISD is faster, it can go up to speed 3.

The ISD has a defensive retrofit slot.

The ISD has a contend token.

The ISD has a better anti fighter firepower, 0.00833 vs 0.00588 average damage per point spent.

More expensive bodies mean more value out of upgrades, for example if you want to equip the same value of ISD and VSD with gunnery team it will cost you one more gunnery team for the VSD.

So as you can see it is far from being obvious, FFG has done an amazing job at balancing the game, I personally rarely use speed 3 ( I always start my ship a speed 2 and slow them at speed 1 when I arrive in range) so for me the choice is far from obvious.

The company should have made the game like the new Halo game. Lots of ships and no upgrades etc.

Well armada is more about smaller scale combat, this is what makes it different to Halo, FSA and BFG . And it is a good thing according to me, what is the point of making a game if you have to copy what has already been done ? Just to put the Star Wars brand and make the game feels like a licence game? I am glad FFG went for something new. Beside the smaller scale has the advantage of including squadrons gameplay along side bigger ship , which is what is clearly lacking on the games I have just quoted.

The company makes wave 1 , everybody uses them, wave 2 comes out, points are almost the same, some ships get set aside, wave three comes out points stay the same, wave 1 ignored, wave two used........see the problem. If the only group

Use older ships is completely up to you, all the ship/squadrons from Wave 1 are very playable and it is up to you to include them in your fleet. For instance people are eager to use the new options which is pretty natural, but they still have their older ship in their collection and are still using them along side new ship and new upgrades. If wave 2 ships were strictly better than the old ones then I would agree but that's not the case.

Two shots from an AF2 benefitting from Home One is pretty much guaranteed to kill aVSD. The lack of defensive upgrades means that every accuracy is basically translated to multiple additional points of damage. Combine with XI7 Turbolasers and you won't even get to redirect away 4-5 damage per attack. If there ever is done firm of superior positioning, it's mitigated by the fact that even the MC80 can outrun and even outmaneuver the VSD.

And sure, you can run them as cheap carriers. But carriers for what? Standard TIE Fighters and Interceptors can't dare get in range of any ship firing more that 1 die. TIE Bombers and TIE Advanced don't have the anti-squadron damage output. Firesprays and Aggressors don't benefit much and are very expensive to run in many ways. And this is all before considering that an Ackbar Home One with 2x Assault Frigate 2Bs will also pack asking multiple fighters equipped to attack both ships and squadrons.

Yes, as the op said a "problem with the 400 point limit."

I find a 500 and 600 there are fewer issues with the VSDs. Remove just Akbar and they are viable. Home games I am starting to limit X-17s and intel officers if I use Akbar to give life back to VSDs in 400 point games.

We need a 500 point meta. The game shines at 500-600. At 700 is starts to bog down.

Let me first point out that, I agree with your conclusion that the VSD is terrible as it currently stands. But I don't quite agree with how you got there.

Two shots from an AF2 benefitting from Home One is pretty much guaranteed to kill aVSD.

That's not true in most cases, and certainly not in the general case you describe here.

Let's assume for simplicity the AF2 always rolls one blank and never has to burn a damage for the Home One accuracy, and only ever gets the Home One accuracy, which it uses on brace (optimal situation for the AF2); the VSD never repairs, and redirects everything possible. No Motti or other advantageous scenarios for the VSD.

Damage required to kill VSD from shots into side arc: 3+3+1+8 = 15

AF2 side arc at long range: 3x.75 = 2.25 damage (15/2.25 = 7 shots to kill)

AF2 side arc at medium range: 4x.75 = 3 damage (15/3 = 5 shots)

AF2/Ackbar side arc at long range: 5x.75 = 3.75 (15/3.75 = 4 shots)

AF2/Ackbar side arc at medium range: 6x.75 = 4.5 (15/4.5 = 3-4 shots)

Combine with XI7 Turbolasers and you won't even get to redirect away 4-5 damage per attack.

So the only scenario in which an AF2 might 2-shot a VSD with any reliability is with Ackbar, at medium/close range, with XI7. Which means it's in range of the VSD-2's blues for at least one round, which is not where you want your AF2, almost ever.

Have there been any attempts to run a Vic I as a kind of heavy bodyguard, following behind ISDs and making backstabbers regret life?

personally I think the VSD II should get a speed boost, in star wars lore the VSD I was slow, and the VSD was given a new engine to allow it to keep up with the rest of the fleet, then again if the VSD II could go speed 3, no one would take the VSD I. Speed is the biggest draw back of the VSD, while it can be overcome it's only best when you have the advantage on the table, if your playing defensively the VSD can quickly be out classed.

A speed boost would be nice, the tricky thing would be doing it in such a way that it could only be applied to Vics, lest we see people snapping up whatever card did this and applying it to their other ships, leaving VSDs in the dust again.

Mostly, I'm staring at the Victory I, because I really like the idea of getting good usage out of a ship that provides a hull tougher than any Gladiator or Raider, but is a heck of a lot cheaper than any ImpStar.

Have there been any attempts to run a Vic I as a kind of heavy bodyguard, following behind ISDs and making backstabbers regret life?

I'm using a VSD-1 as transport for Screed, flying with an ISD-2 and the Demolisher with 70pts of squadrons. I feel the VSD fits quite nicely in the role I've given it: sits at the back/side, activating early or late to suit the needs of the other ships, and having plenty of shields/hull to protect the admiral while still representing a not-impotent threat should the enemy stray too close.

The VSD's day is far from done - like all tools, it just needs to be applied properly.

A speed boost would be nice, the tricky thing would be doing it in such a way that it could only be applied to Vics, lest we see people snapping up whatever card did this and applying it to their other ships, leaving VSDs in the dust again.

Mostly, I'm staring at the Victory I, because I really like the idea of getting good usage out of a ship that provides a hull tougher than any Gladiator or Raider, but is a heck of a lot cheaper than any ImpStar.

As a dedicated carrier, the Victory 1 is more points efficient with Hangar Bays than any other ship with the same upgrade

Other than that, it's greatest value imho is marking a spot on the map and screaming "I dare you" to the enemy ships to enter its killzone, especially with Expanded Launchers or Screed and ACM. My first Wave 2 purchase is probably going to be an Imperial Raider, and since I have no ISDs, but one of each expansion from Wave 1, I was thinking about making a list with Screed featuring a VSD 1, a VSD 2, a Glad and the Raider.

Come to think of it, when you have activation advantage, placing a Victory I in an interception trajectory to either force your opponent to circle back to your other ships or to move away from the main battle if they don't want to eat his firepower has tactical value.

But yeah, VicIs need to be placed last lest they don't get to fire a shot

This game is a pain in the ass at high point values. Not fun.

No, its not intended for 2000 points.

If you made house rules that allow for simult fire and move, I'd be very interested though.

Victories are amazing. Despite the lack of ECM their cost benift at Wave 2 improved significantly. Because it's cheap you have the potential to get massive synergy in upgrades.

The Doom Roller: VSDI, Dominator, Expanded Launcher, xi7, extras can include Intel Officer, Wulf. Use with Screed or Vader, 10 dice front arc, 5 from the side. 15 dice on a double tap! Don't forget Dominator can be used on squadron fire and out of any arc.

Wulf Carrier: Boosted Comms, Wulf, extras can include, Corruptor, Expanded Hanger (I prefer boosted), E-Armament.

Squdron Auto Damage: H9 Turbo, Warlord is auto damage for 1 blue dice. Extras include Quad Laser Turrets, Ruthless strategist for 2 auto damage

Ozzel is actually awsome with Vics. The best way to avoid damage is stay out of arc. If you can end a turn out of range I often stop at 0. So long as they don't move up close AND have first turn you will be fine.

You have two choices. Intercept or run.

Intercepting with a Victory involves knowing when a ship is going to turn. Knowing how to bait ships to turn into or away from you, where it will head, how to pick objectives either yours or theirs to direct their movement.

Running with a Victory involves hiding behind 3-4 bombers and rouges to punish pursuers.

I consider the most important aspect of flying a VSD is how to offset it. Never point it straight at an enemy, offset it so when you turn at spped 2 you will have a close range double arc AND you might even be able to fly past at speed two if you live.

Second is going first. Close range, slow, not survivable. I want to be able to shoot first in case the one shot of Doom Roller is all im going to get.

How would you react against a typical Ackbar broadside list if he hands you first player and you're suffering through whatever objectives? Speed 0 and wait for him to come to you?