Well after reviewing many of the threads and comments I think the best thing for the Victory class is to be a support class vessel.

They fit perfectly as a carrier, Give them Expanded hangars , Wing commander, and a crap load of TIE Bomber squadrons and

you have a good fit. Currently playing a game where one of my Victory II's are utilized as a carrier. I also use them as they should be,

as an escort. Sure they are not speed demons but keep the ISD close and you have a nice wall of fire. That is the problem with the 400 point limit BS. Every ship has a purpose, a fleet needs the following : The Flag Ships( ISD II, MC80) ,

Ships of the Line(Assault Frigate MK I, II, III, ISD I, Dreadnaughts)

Support Class Ships (Nebulon B, Victory I , Gladiator SD )

Escort Class Ships ( Vindicator Heavy Cruiser, Nebulon B,

Victory II)

Fleet Picket's( CR-90 Corvette, Imperial Raiders)

ISD are not a rear area vessel, they are frontline combat units that are meant to be the " hammer's". Victory class SD are perfect

for planetary defence, or the flagship for patrol tasks. They would work well with a squadron of Vindicator Heavy Cruisers, or a squadron of Gladiators.

This is the one BIG fault I have with Armada, this concept of points and the you bring 400 points and I bring 400 points. It may be fun,

but it creates this problem: The company makes wave 1 , everybody uses them, wave 2 comes out, points are almost the same, some ships get set aside, wave three comes out points stay the same, wave 1 ignored, wave two used........see the problem. If the only group

that is the " majority players " follow the 400 point concept this game will probably not last. This game is meant to be a fleet action

IE) lots of ships, and fighters. I can see this with X-wing, that works fine, but Armada , I don't think so. The company should have made the game like the new Halo game. Lots of ships and no upgrades etc.

This game is "meant" to be exactly what it is. I never get why people try to ascribe intentionality that has more to do with what they want to see then what actually is. No, wait, I do get why. I just have no patience for it. I'm sorry this game doesn't recreate Endor.

Spot on analysis of the Victory though.

Victories are just too slow and not as reactive as the other imperial vessels to be used well in my opinion. The lack of speed 3 or a defensive retrofit really hurts it with all the dice chuckers these days.

I agree on all points. I think Armada is too FFG, not enough BFG imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but I feel like it's something of a missed opportunity.

I agree with the idea that Victories are relegated to a secondary role in an Imperial fleet, because they really lost their edge as the big baddie of Wave 1. It's mainly due to their lack of speed 3 and low overall maneuvrability (for a brawling oriented strategy of the Imperial Navy anyways).

As a carrier, it's more efficient points wise than the Imperial I. Where the odd duck is at, it's with the Victory II class. I guess he could be a generalist support ship by managing a flight of inexpensive TIE Fighters, but I'm not too sure it can do this extremely well. I have the feeling that the best use of a Victory II is as a flank denial unit and to punish smaller ships that manage to sneak through the Imperial battle line. The Victory II, having access to the cool ion cannons but lacking the ability to throw them well, might be good with inexpensive upgrades like Ion Cannon Batteries.

So get together with your friends and play an 800 point game?

Nothing is stopping you, they just recommend 400 points and enforce that at tournaments.

Also, you're discounting the possibility of an 'epic play' equivalent in the future.

Whoops, double post.

The whole Imperial navy is in trouble because there's no way to protect brace (except yes, the ISD), but the rebels have a 7 point title to give everyone accuracy. Sure, it's attached to a 106 point cruiser, but it's a good 106 point cruiser. ISD-IIs can take that ECM slot, ISD-I can at least close the distance rapidly to engage (along with enhancing the fighter cloud with two offensive slots), but the VSD can do neither.

Even at speed 2, most speed 2 broadside rebels are going to take the VSD apart before it gets into range, on the account that the ship does not have evades. Ackbar exasperates the problem by giving the heavier rebel ships more red dice than the VSD can put out even with upgrades (Slaved turrets is only 1 die, Ackbar with EH can give three).

VSDs need something more to make them viable again, IMO. Right now they have no chance against the most powerful of rebel lists.

The whole Imperial navy is in trouble because there's no way to protect brace (except yes, the ISD), but the rebels have a 7 point title to give everyone accuracy.

So much doom and gloom. Home One is good, but it's a huge investment that limits the rest of your options dramatically. Remember how the GenCon Special used to be unbeatable? I do. It wasn't. Neither is Home One/Ackbar. In fact, there have been many, many battle reports of people beating it, both as Imperial and as non-Ackbar Rebels. I wouldn't even call it the strongest Rebel builds right now... Just the easiest and most obvious.

Sure, it's attached to a 106 point cruiser, but it's a good 106 point cruiser.

No it's not. It's a *terrible* 106-point cruiser. It gets a lot better with ECM, Engine Techs, Boosted Comms, XI7, Leading Shots, or any of a host of other upgrades... But then you're talking about a ~140-point cruiser. Which goddamn well better be good at that price. Much like ISD's, the MC80 comes with a few almost-mandatory upgrades, and several more that you're wasting points if you don't take. This ship is such a mammoth point sink that taking one defines your list.

ISD-IIs can take that ECM slot, ISD-I can at least close the distance rapidly to engage (along with enhancing the fighter cloud with two offensive slots), but the VSD can do neither.

Even at speed 2, most speed 2 broadside rebels are going to take the VSD apart before it gets into range, on the account that the ship does not have evades. Ackbar exasperates the problem by giving the heavier rebel ships more red dice than the VSD can put out even with upgrades (Slaved turrets is only 1 die, Ackbar with EH can give three).

VSDs need something more to make them viable again, IMO. Right now they have no chance against the most powerful of rebel lists.

Agree with most of this, but what you're laying out here is that this is a problem with the VSD, not larger game balance issues with Rebel vs Imperial. The Empire has ample options for dealing with Ackbar, Home One, and the combination thereof--the VSD is not one of those options. What they lack is a good niche for the VSD, in most any fleet construct. Which is really too bad, because I rather like the ship. It's very efficient, it just comes apart to most other fleets (regardless of faction).

I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but my thoughts with the VSD are this:

Take two of them with an ISDII.

The ISD deploys in one corner with fighter support.

The two VSDs deploy in the opposite corner. Everything starts at max speed.

The theory is that to be entirely effective, the rebels need to circle the imperials, keeping those big powerful side arcs on target.

If the rebels have enemies in their rear and their front then it becomes extremely difficult for them to keep their side arcs on target.

Add in a tractor beam on the ISD and you can really spoil their day, I think. Over all, it stops the equation from being "Their side arcs are better than our front arcs" to "Whoever has the better ability to deploy and maneuver has the advantage". An Imperial admiral attempting to fly straight across the table into the flanks of a rebel line is not going to have a good day. If he can get either behind or in front of that line, then he stands a very good chance.

I think the problem I am seeing from most Imperial players is they keep bringing squadron light builds and drive straight accross the map at the enemy thinking it will work due to the front arcs being the ideal engagements zone. This is almost like when tanks first came around and the cavalry pined for the days of open field charges with horses. You just can't do that anymore. Imperials need to utilize their support ships and squadrons. The days of gun lines are over imho

the other thing you can do, is bid for 2nd player, and pick objectives that screw with the side swingers! thinks like contested outpost, most wanted(red is there weakest ), intel sweep.

you make them play to your tune so they cant go around "the toilet bowl" like they want to.

This is the one BIG fault I have with Armada, this concept of points and the you bring 400 points and I bring 400 points.

Check out the link in my sig. I am working on developing narrative missions that break this.

Victories are just too slow and not as reactive as the other imperial vessels to be used well in my opinion. The lack of speed 3 or a defensive retrofit really hurts it with all the dice chuckers these days.

It is more the lack of a defensive retrofit than the speed issue, and partly because of the abundance of XI7 turbolasers and the availability of accuracy results. The former makes redirecting a joke, and in todays meta everybody and his dog is bringing them, especially on rebells side. The latter is a growing problem with more and more upgrades that guarantee acc or even hand it out on all rolls for free. With a single brace, the VSDs defensive tokens have turned from reliable (wave 1) to something that can practically be ignored on 6/10 shots (my feeling, not backed up by math or other mystic science..)

For the very same reason the ISD-II is seen a lot more than the ISD-I, at least in the groups I attend to. The def retrofit is what makes these ships survivable.

@ardaedhel, could you point me to some battle reports showing these Imperial victories without ECMs against Ackbar and Home One? This is one of those things I need to see to believe. Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't found an Imperial list employing good anti-Ackbar strategies yet.

i still have a place for my Vic1.

I use it as a gunboat, (support by fire?). I usually roll it with Xi7, expanded launchers, the dominator and either ordnance experts if i dont have vader, if i do i'll have sensor teams. The office is either wulf or an intel officer.

Basically all i do is run it straight towards the most valuable target alongside my ISD and Demolisher, so if they choose to target my vic1 it will have enough toughness to survive a volley to get demolisher or the isd into position, if it doesnt get targeted then i can do a might big punch that i can reroll (with vader) and gurantee an accuracy which will burn out an ECM for the other two ships.

/messed up the quote.

Ardaedhel, would you kindly name some of those ample options, preferably some that are not entirely squadron-dependant? Till then, ackbars synergy with gunnery teams and the "hey take a free acc"-home one remains for me what a demolisher must have ment for rebells in wave 1. Its beatable but is mostly not fun to beat, and it takes a superior understanding of the game to beat a basic tactic.

/messed up the quote.

Ardaedhel, would you kindly name some of those ample options, preferably some that are not entirely squadron-dependant? Till then, ackbars synergy with gunnery teams and the "hey take a free acc"-home one remains for me what a demolisher must have ment for rebells in wave 1. Its beatable but is mostly not fun to beat, and it takes a superior understanding of the game to beat a basic tactic.

To be fair, Rebels has their Demolisher equivalent in Wave 1, it was Gallant Haven. I was primarily Rebels with Wave 1 and I can't tell you how many people I've frustrated that weren't able to kill of my named squadrons until it was the time to pounce.

To all people that think that the VSD is weak:

Just a comparison of the VSD II and ISD II:

Advantages of the VSD:

The VSD has a better damage output vs ship per point spent than the ISD on all of his hull zone, on the front it has an average of 0.0529 vs 0.05 damage per point of the ISD.

The VSD has more shield, 0.1176 vs 0.1 shield per point spent.

The VSD has more hull point, 0.0941 vs 0.0916 hull point per point spent.

The VSD has a better squadron value, 0.352 vs 0.333 squadron value per point spent.

The VSD repair itself faster, 0.0470 vs 0.0333 engineering per point spent.

The VSD is cheaper so easier to fit into your fleet without having to cut something.

3 VSD over 2 ISD gives you more activation and a numeric superiority that can be useful for flanking.

Advantages of the ISD:

The ISD has a better maneuverability at speed 2, one more yaw .

The ISD is faster, it can go up to speed 3.

The ISD has a defensive retrofit slot.

The ISD has a contend token.

The ISD has a better anti fighter firepower, 0.00833 vs 0.00588 average damage per point spent.

More expensive bodies mean more value out of upgrades, for example if you want to equip the same value of ISD and VSD with gunnery team it will cost you one more gunnery team for the VSD.

So as you can see it is far from being obvious, FFG has done an amazing job at balancing the game, I personally rarely use speed 3 ( I always start my ship a speed 2 and slow them at speed 1 when I arrive in range) so for me the choice is far from obvious.

The company should have made the game like the new Halo game. Lots of ships and no upgrades etc.

Well armada is more about smaller scale combat, this is what makes it different to Halo, FSA and BFG . And it is a good thing according to me, what is the point of making a game if you have to copy what has already been done ? Just to put the Star Wars brand and make the game feels like a licence game? I am glad FFG went for something new. Beside the smaller scale has the advantage of including squadrons gameplay along side bigger ship , which is what is clearly lacking on the games I have just quoted.

The company makes wave 1 , everybody uses them, wave 2 comes out, points are almost the same, some ships get set aside, wave three comes out points stay the same, wave 1 ignored, wave two used........see the problem. If the only group

Use older ships is completely up to you, all the ship/squadrons from Wave 1 are very playable and it is up to you to include them in your fleet. For instance people are eager to use the new options which is pretty natural, but they still have their older ship in their collection and are still using them along side new ship and new upgrades. If wave 2 ships were strictly better than the old ones then I would agree but that's not the case.

Thorrk, nobody argues against your numbers, in fact most of them have been stated already a number of times when the preview for the ISD was just released. The VSD is not a bad ship per se, but the abundant use of ackbar+home one+gunnery teams on AFiis means their value has arguably shifted towards the lower. The def token/cancel def token mechanic seems odd when one side is handing out accs for free, and the redirect has already lost some value due to XI7s being the bread and butter of most ships. In the current meta, the def retrofit is essential to give ships a chance to survive the first 1-2 broadsides.

Thorrk, nobody argues against your numbers, in fact most of them have been stated already a number of times when the preview for the ISD was just released. The VSD is not a bad ship per se, but the abundant use of ackbar+home one+gunnery teams on AFiis means their value has arguably shifted towards the lower. The def token/cancel def token mechanic seems odd when one side is handing out accs for free, and the redirect has already lost some value due to XI7s being the bread and butter of most ships. In the current meta, the def retrofit is essential to give ships a chance to survive the first 1-2 broadsides.

Well the real problem is the combo akbar/gunnery team being way too good compared to anything else, not the VSD being outdated compared to the ISD. I agree that the defensive retrofit is the real upside of the ISD, not the speed 3. As soon as FFG will find a fix for that combo, the VSD will be back.

BTW I don't play X-wing so I wonder what method does FFG use to fix obvious imbalance problem?

Do they ban upgrade for tournament, do they print specific counter in next wave, do they use FAQ to nerf things?

Do they ban upgrade for tournament, do they print specific counter in next wave, do they use FAQ to nerf things?

Usually the Middle one, Occasionally the Third... Never the first in my (limited) view.

And I think its Meta dependant... The Triple-Slaved-Vic-Rhymerball here is still making mincemeat of almost everything it comes across.

Thorrk, nobody argues against your numbers, in fact most of them have been stated already a number of times when the preview for the ISD was just released. The VSD is not a bad ship per se, but the abundant use of ackbar+home one+gunnery teams on AFiis means their value has arguably shifted towards the lower. The def token/cancel def token mechanic seems odd when one side is handing out accs for free, and the redirect has already lost some value due to XI7s being the bread and butter of most ships. In the current meta, the def retrofit is essential to give ships a chance to survive the first 1-2 broadsides.

Well the real problem is the combo akbar/gunnery team being way too good compared to anything else, not the VSD being outdated compared to the ISD. I agree that the defensive retrofit is the real upside of the ISD, not the speed 3. As soon as FFG will find a fix for that combo, the VSD will be back.

Exactly my thoughts on this matter. One combo gets exceptionally good or synergises (too) well -> Upgrade slots or mechanics that help to counter or survive this combo raise in value. The VSD is great by itself and I still use it a lot, but not having a def retrofit makes it suffer hard.

Nothing at all stops you from running a high-point game to get the experience you want.

Keep in mind however, that FFG keeps the official game size to 400 points in part to keep the play time reasonable. The 1500 point a side game I played recently took over 9 hours of play time to complete (6 rounds).

after a game like that (as crazy-fun as it is) both participants are pretty burned out, and come to think of it I have not played a game of Armada since...

I'm not saying I wouldn't do it again, but the time commitment scales a little more than linearly with the point limit, Played an 800 point game that took 3-4 hours...

Most adults that have the money to buy all these toys also don't have the time to play games this size.

Well the real problem is the combo akbar/gunnery team being way too good compared to anything else

People say that as if it's an indisputable fact, but we don't even have a consensus in this thread, let alone these boards that it is true.