I've done this dance three times so far. All three times I've tried to use the requisition system in the Dark Heresy second edition core rulebook.

Dark Pursuits & Forgotten Gods Game (5 Players/DH2):

I first tried it in my Dark Pursuits Game. This was my first real shot at GM-ing. About a month in there was almost a whole session dedicated to to trading the loot gleaned from one battle. This was monstrous. After that, I brought back DH1 monthly pay, and used the Macharian Handbooks to give the players all the prices. This system did lead to some issues due to under-costed items like special ammo and the crap in one of the splatbooks, but it overall worked quite well until act four where a few players managed to build completely broken builds, which isn't unusual for high level Dark Heresy.

City Stories (3-4 Players/DH2)

I tried to bring back requisition. I figured the smaller group would be able to handle it. The story took place in a city, so buying and selling could occur. Big big mistake. I got more complaints in this game than in all the other games put together with regard to the economy. This was because they were in a city and yet really couldn't get necessary items. I gave them fairly regular influence checks to get things from the Inquisitor and city government, but given their failure I was constantly forced to deny somewhat basic items like flak armor and auto-guns on the basis that 'they didn't have them in their size' or 'the items the guys around them had were gene-loked'.

A House of Dust and Ash (3 Players/DH2)

I used requisition in this game, but told the players clearly that given the campaign situation there would be no chance for shopping. They were on a one-way trip and getting a care package would not be likely. There were also no gift shops in the 'House of Dust and Ash'. This was the one time it actually worked. There were no stores. I did let them ask for things before they left.

Conclusions

1. The requisition system is dysfunctional and one of the worst aspects of DH2. It only works in situations where the party is separated from human society receiving care packages from their inquisitor.

2. The method of determining if an item is available isn't great either.

3. The advantage to a monetary system was that it gave a common unit of exchange (thrones). This greatly increased the rate of trade by removing bartering. These don't have to be thrones. They could just be 'Trade Units' based on the value of the items cashed in.

4. GM's that claim to be using this system RAW and have functional games probably aren't being honest.

Solutions

1. The 'Inquisition Armory' was one solution that I came up with. Players could freely exchange certain low level items with their inquisitors supply guy. This got rid of many of the early requests for basic essentials like flak armor and ammunition.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/295262211/Inqusition-Armory?secret_password=RVHrx6dJHBTUIZ7BJi5g

2. All the loot players don't take should be sold by one character. A single commerce check should determine the amount of money granted for all the loot.

3. Let people turn their items into 'trade units', then set up a system of exchange. Trade units are 'thrones'. This lets people theoretically save up money for big ticket items.

2 Common <---> Average

Average <--> Average

2 Average <--> Scarce

Etc.

I've got an entire price-chart listed around here somewhere. I only use Requisition rules when someone goes 'as an Agent of the Inquisition, I need you to provide me a car/piece of kit/group of mooks.' My group has a Null-Rod on loan by doing that, and they've used it to acquire vehicles before as well.

I agree that the requisition system is a bit broken as written. My problem with it isn't the common items, however, though not being able to find something normal is annoying at times. My problem is that it reduces getting powerful or rare items to a roll when the Throne-gelt system meant that even if you found a rare piece of equipment you'd have to save for it. It meant that getting a rare item was far more rewarding.

1. The requisition system is dysfunctional and one of the worst aspects of DH2. It only works in situations where the party is separated from human society receiving care packages from their inquisitor.

2. The method of determining if an item is available isn't great either.

3. The advantage to a monetary system was that it gave a common unit of exchange (thrones). This greatly increased the rate of trade by removing bartering. These don't have to be thrones. They could just be 'Trade Units' based on the value of the items cashed in.

4. GM's that claim to be using this system RAW and have functional games probably aren't being honest.

I don't like what I read here because it completely take away the fact that it could be you (no offense intented) that misinterpreted it.

I'll go reread back influence system to see if you say the truth and I don't apply it by the book, but it seems I do and I didn't have any problem with it. Sure, sometimes it is hard to describe some stuff, but essentially, there are no problems.

I'll go take a look soon and and get back to you!

I think you may be missing some important elements of the Influence system. The first has to do with who the Acolytes actually are! Remember that Acolytes are essentially regular people who don't have the wealth of a Rogue trader or Inquisitor themselves. Especially in the beginning! Let's consider your example of Flak Armor; a Flak vest has an availability of Average which means your average starting character has about a 30% chance of picking one up with no modifiers. Seem too low? Consider this: IRL a Kevlar vest will run you $500.00 or more! How many of us carry around that kind of money in Cash? Further, Body armor is not normally sold in your local sport's equipment store. It's usually a catalogue order item. Now add to that the fact that most times, Acolytes are not in their hometown or even on their Homeworld! Suppose you live in the USA and you travel to europe. Once there, you decide you need a new set of body armor. Would you even know where to look?

The second part of this that your missing is the commerce skill. The modifier for a successful commerce roll is +10 per (opposed) DOS! This can put you into some hefty modifiers! Add to that the modifiers for dealing with a merchant you know and it gets a lot easier!

The reason I mention this is that I see this complaint often. I find that often people complaining about the RAW are not using the RAW! There are certainly things I would Handwave. IE: Your Acolyte has an Imperial guard background and wishes to exchange discharged lasgun mags for new ones at the local base..Sure! I'm not gonna make you roll for that! I personally also like to add the modifiers from the original DH1 Ascension . That probably the only part of that book I found useful!

Also, in case of skill checks in general, I think everybody knows by now that you don't have to roll skill checks for everything you encounter, only in case if a person could really fail at something and it making narrative sense. You don't roll for walking or talking to somebody. If you have an arbiter character trying to do his "I AM THE LAW" to a beggar, don't roll for the check, just make it automatically pass, unless there is something narratively more going on.

That's really the same with the requisition system, if an item is so abundant, then don't bother to roll (it depends from place to place, planet to planet, the rarity of an item in the book is just generally speaking). In case of less abundant items, but still generally available items, roll and if they fail and it's annoying to come up with excuses (or they barely failed), you could just make it a low quality version instead or give the option that they can get the item but it would also decrease their subtlety. It really depends on the situation and the GM has the final say in this. And yes, as Radwraith pointed out, some items are actually harder to come by than you actually realize.

This isn't D&D where you just loot everything to the last sock and shoe that you encounter, that's not the point of the game. I think the system is here so you'd be less bothered with looting and selling everything, etc and more focused on the actual point of the game, taking care of mysteries/heresies while being acolytes in the service of an inquisitor.

IE: Your Acolyte has an Imperial guard background and wishes to exchange discharged lasgun mags for new ones at the local base..Sure! I'm not gonna make you roll for that!

Oh no sir!

Lasgun batteries are military equipment. When you're going to take one from military base you need to explain quarterman there why should he to put himself in danger of inspection (maybe tomorrow base commissar will decide to make a one). Of course, if you know anything about IG you know he have spare batteries and some ways to mitigate "loses", but you need to explain him, why should he spare that to you. That's a roll.

Also... "About a month in there was almost a whole session dedicated to to trading the loot gleaned from one battle."

I believe you just don't understand exactly what is "loot trading". Every civilized world will be intrested about some nomadic people who came and try to sell some items, especially weapons or military-grade armor. Try to imagine FBI covert-ops who defeated terrorist cell and trying to sell loot - some assault rifles, explosives, body armors, looted comps and so all. And if you're on uncivilsed world you need to find some buyers, and even then it's not so easy (they should want AND be able to buy your loot!).

Can't Lasgun packs be recharged easily? Like even without military equipment? Granted, not the point of the whole discussion.

They can, but there are complications. "Fireplace recharging" havles capacity (and by background can randomly explode). So it's understandable to want to change them with new ones.

Well on page 154 it says:

You guys are getting really distracted with this lasgun topic. Let's just forget it along with knife sharpening, filters, bullet caliber, magazine sizes, and left handed vs. right handed adapters.

I do realize that commerce does play a role in reducing the issues with requisition tests as do the Adept, Noble, and Tech Priest Abilities.

I have put restrictions on looting before. I've forbidden the party from carrying 'military' weapons in the hive. This includes things like rocket launchers, heavy stubbers, and obvious amounts of explosive. At one point I also banned some acolytes from carry longarms, and that was not well received. I also took all their gear once. Trying to break the loot hoarding mentality though is extremely problematic, as it does get in the way of player agency. I've also told them any armor they find on dead goons doesn't fit perfectly or is unrecoverable. I've run four DH games myself and played in about three other ones. Looting isn't going out of style. If you have a CoC style group though that is great. DH2 was designed around combat. No getting around that.

I also, at one point, restricted carrying to one of the following patterns to stop them from carrying a gun for each occasion, which was causing a lot of issues. Flamethrowers were everywhere.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/295302703/Each-Character-May-Pick Eventually, I moved back to using the default weight limit.

The point I'm making though is that the framework for how requisition works is very nebulous and we, as GM's, run into many issues using it. Basically, I have just been thru a game where I was sending party members into combat in robes and armored body-gloves because I was following RAW. It just isn't a good system unless you can find some reason for your people to never visit a store and are planning to provide them with basic gear.

So yes granted that begs the question, can some of the civil equipment be considered to be "a suitable power source" in the first place. I get the feeling though that it's doable if you have a Tech-savvy character.

That's why my parties don't loot everything but only something they are really intrested in. They definintly let lasgun lie, but they will take anything they are planning to use (for spare parts Tech-Priest use as example). Or maybe they will take batteries, if their was shooted dry.

Generally atypical behavior in my experience.

Also money does exist.

Thrones are an approximation, but most planets/cities have a currency in one form or another there just isn't a 'unified intergalactic currency' like with credits in Star Wars. This covered in the DH1 and DH2 rulebooks. Desoleum uses something called 'scrip', if you don't have an Oathcog (DH2 Rulebook p 142). The problem is our current system doesn't really allow saving of currency or the conversion of items into a tradeable currency. People just wander around with no idea how rich or poor they are just with a good feeling or a bad feeling.

Generally atypical behavior in my experience.

Also money does exist.

It was a problem in DH1, to be honest. There was system with gelts and static prices, so it creates wrong impression.

The problem is our current system doesn't really allow saving of currency or the conversion of items into a tradeable currency.

Thing is there should be such a problem! You can't really just turn lasguns into "virtual money". You have some lasguns, so you need to invite some ways to transfer that lasguns into something else, and if you managed to and have some good reserves in good currency you just increase your Influence.

Not for much, to be honest, because in Imperium money are not so important as connections or favors. After all you can have thousands and millions gelts, how they will help you on Desoleum?

The problem is our current system doesn't really allow saving of currency or the conversion of items into a tradeable currency.

Thing is there should be such a problem! You can't really just turn lasguns into "virtual money". You have some lasguns, so you need to invite some ways to transfer that lasguns into something else, and if you managed to and have some good reserves in good currency you just increase your Influence.

Not for much, to be honest, because in Imperium money are not so important as connections or favors. After all you can have thousands and millions gelts, how they will help you on Desoleum?

Not everywhere. I was very clear in my original post that there are some locations and McGuffins where requisition 'works'. You also may be having some issues processing what I wrote in your rush to tell me how you do things. I was very clear on how Desoleum does indeed have a currency and I provided a book reference and page number.

The classic DH story is the 'hive adventure'. The whole story of Dark Heresy is about looking at the crumbling edifice of Imperial Society. You've also basically adapted exactly what I said in my first post with your concept of 'adding influence'. It's the same idea as I proposed just without clear rules.

You also may be having some issues processing what I wrote in your rush to tell me how you do things. I was very clear on how Desoleum does indeed have a currency and I provided a book reference and page number.

Desoleum have money, and you can turn your loot into them, of course; but 1) you need to have a ways to pass throw local police as well as Arbitres (weapon smuggling, hmmm?), 2) this money don't help you when you leave Desoleum to other hive. Even in Desoleum (especially in Desoleum that have good deal smuggler problem, with bases on lakes in the shadow of the hive) problem "where can I sell a horde of loot" is a problem. Solvable problem, but you need to solve it.

It is not easy to transmog loot into cash, so if players have a problem to transmog loot into cash it's good working system.

Money (not resourses), especially local money, isn't the foundation of Imperium, so system that don't put money ahead of everything other it's good working system.

Also limitness of Acolytes resourses, when they're working on their own (not as Inquisitorial peers) is very major as I read books. If you wanted to let them get something they asked when they asked it as "we're Acolytes of Inquisition!" (let's say they want to take laspistol that way), they will roll AT LEAST against 75+10=85. P. 270 of rulebook, and Inquisitor have at least 75 Ifl. If they loose such rolls fequently I'd offer you to create adventure where they oppose Tzeentch cult, because it's defenitly warp sorcery.

Also I believe that some cites are needed here too.

"Those that serve an Inquisitor must be aware of such issues. So long as they serve their master well, though, they should have little need to trouble themselves with such petty concerns as personal wealth, when they might die any day. Few are paid for their services in currency, knowing that duty is its own reward and that Emperor provides."

It's the last paragraph of the reference you provided. p. 142

Same point.

Also, p. 143..

You don't need to know even "how much exactly this thing cost in local money". If you know where it can be bought, and have enough resources as well, you just take it. Imagine yourself a man with 40 Fel (simple enough, isn't it?), Commerce +30, Peer (2-3) (underground/smugglers), and Ifl... let's say 30. It's not hard, right? It's very near starting character. I can generate him. It's character who lives with smuggling trade, not somebody never leaves IG base.

So when he tries to get something (local money included, but why he need it?..), he rolls 40+30+20=90 Commerce. For each DoS he have +10 to get something.

Two rolls and some inner game time, to get something.

Yes, that's a man who can acquire plasma cannon from local weapon smugglers.

It's a problem?

You see, your main mistake is using "are we rich" question, and it's common enough place in lore. Amounts of local planetary money is not matter. Correct imperial question is "are we resourceful", and players have strict number means EXACTLY that in their sheets.

In regards to your party's selling all the loot, Have you attempted to dis-wade your players from you know... Looting to much? In only war I made each player take a corruption test when picking up tainted weapons ( fighting mostly Heretics of the demon worshiping kind) As the weapons machine spirit would most likely be tainted. It even opened up a hole story line where they were trying to hide weapons from other soldiers and slowly started to become more corrupt.

This system is taken from only war, and I never had a issue with it. Most people complained it was harder to get good items, but a Private is unlikely to be issued with a bolt gun even if he or she is a specialist. Considering that These are not soldiers ( though some maybe) you are unlikely to be getting alot of stuff. The rules as written seem fair enough to me. When I played DH one we would have spreadsheets about how much we spent ect ect.

Played Black Crusade, Ascension and Rogue Trader many times, and never had a problem.

Also, remember three other things with the influence system:

1. If you are using influence then 'getting all the things' is not the goal of the game system. If people are likely to spend a week trading loot and acquiring small arms ammo, then yes.....just use 'money'. It's easier. Influence is better when their needs are likely to switch from wanting 'stuff' to wanting 'services' to pressuring people for ill-specified 'favours' at the drop of a hat. Equally, the system is designed for a level where subsistence food and accommodation aren't tracked. If you really want them on the permanent edge of bankruptcy....fine. Essentially, the more important money is in your campaign, the more you should used a detailed version (i.e. thrones, not influence)
2. You can 'burn' influence to get stuff. I believe it's a standard mechanic and should be encouraged if people need to. Black Crusade includes a more detailed breakdown of how much infamy you have to burn to auto-acquire an item of X rarity, which can be adapted, but the simple rules work fine if you don't want to go to town on detail. Short of failing to find the **** thing in the first place, or GM fiat, you can never fail to acquire something if it's something you need enough to burn influence to get it.
3. You aren't just three generic scrubbers from nowhere in particular. You can use your own influence and probably fail, or, if it matters, you can (with GM's approval) use your inquisitor's influence. That's a standard rule, too, and his/her influence should be a minimum of 75....meaning that acquiring that las ammunition from a quartermaster - if prepared to admit to who you are - should be so easy as to be a joke.

Also, now Influence is a player characteristic, doesn't that mean you can throw fate points at Inf tests?

Not everywhere. I was very clear in my original post that there are some locations and McGuffins where requisition 'works'. You also may be having some issues processing what I wrote in your rush to tell me how you do things. I was very clear on how Desoleum does indeed have a currency and I provided a book reference and page number.

Sure he has a rush to tell you how he does, that's what you asked in writing a topic about problems you get with a system.

If you have a CoC style group though that is great. DH2 was designed around combat. No getting around that.

No. DH was designed to be a game about Inquisition, which is investigation with often a violent twist. It can be made in games of "Purge the cultist's lair" or in game of "there won't be any firefight until we're pretty sure that this guy is guilty because if we accuse him without proof a whole edifice will fall on our head".

It just isn't a good system unless you can find some reason for your people to never visit a store and are planning to provide them with basic gear.

As a GM, it's our only job, finding pretextes and background for everything the players do.

The point I'm making though is that the framework for how requisition works is very nebulous and we, as GM's, run into many issues using it.

Never had said problems. And when players, in non-roleplayed down times want too much stuff, I just restrict how many tests they can do (generally being their Ifl bonus) and otherwise they must work their way around during the game, which are choices. With values of something like average 35 percent, + commerce skills, + avilability, + situational modifiers, this seems to me very easy.

Basically, I have just been thru a game where I was sending party members into combat in robes and armored body-gloves because I was following RAW

What's the problem with that. When police officers are caught in a fusillade at a bank, they aren't necessary full equiped, as much as detectives that follows a trail and fall on highly equipped criminals. Yeah, true, in real life they'll get back to HQ or call backup, but Inquisition have no back-up. They are lonely agents.

The problem is with your group's loot mentality, not the mechanics of the game. Influence works for acquiring services, paying bribes, and getting ammunition in a place you're unfamiliar with.

It breaks down when you try to use it to loot, steal, and sell everything that isn't bolted down. These are Inquisitorial Acolytes, they've got better things to do than shopping sprees. The armory isn't that extensive in the first place, so I don't know how they could even spend an entire session buying things!

"But they are just regular guys!" You might say. "They don't have access to the resources of the Inquisition!"

Neither do I, and I'm a regular guy - but you don't see me looting dead bodies to pawn everything they own. That simply isn't normal behavior, both in real life or in WH40k.

That's a complicated conjecture. The game comes from the tabletop and the novels. I don't run pure 'purge missions' very often, but the poor social rules and the massive amount of attention paid to weapons, armor, and combat in general doesn't really support that DH was intended to be something like Trail of Cthulhu. I could be wrong, but designer intent is always a weird subject.

Conclusions :

My tl;dr on this issue is that the rest of you clearly aren't really following RAW either, and while many of you may be using influence most seem to be using variants and mixtures of Solution 1 and Solution 3 to make sure your players don't mutiny and to pass out gifts. I think that's a fair statement. I agree I have problems with player looting corpses. I've had problems with that since I started role-playing. The question is have I driven them to this ? The question is would your players loot corpses if it was a choice between that and death, or do you just have such high turnover or so little combat that it doesn't matter ?

It sounds like your principal concerns are:

-That gear can sometimes be scarce in the early game. True, but the PCs should likely have a bunch of useful things to come by as a result of making their characters in the first place. Plus they can mitigate things with Commerce, which is really powerful if the party QM is built for it. (There's even a homeworld option that can help out on this front, the Oath Unspoken from Forgotten Gods on page 57.) Finally, as the GM you are encouraged to push the relevant modifiers around should the situation warrant it; there are sidebars on this, the power of Commerce, and the limits of trading on page 143 of the core book.

-That the party is acting like a bunch of murderhobos, swiping anything that isn't nailed down and then proceeding to spend time bean-counting afterwards. But the thing is that switching currencies doesn't actually help here - by pegging a concrete value to everything, using Throne Gelt (or whatever) makes things worse. Technically you can't even trade up, only down (see above for the page) and thus the problematic bit about the PCs taking most of a session to pore over loot wasn't even RAW. Honestly, this is a player issue more than anything else - talk to your players about it before trying to be a game designer.

I did read his solution and that solution was that he was also effectively ignoring RAW by using a variant of what I proposed in Solution 3 .

3. Let people turn their items into 'trade units', then set up a system of exchange. Trade units are 'thrones'. This lets people theoretically save up money for big ticket items.

What do you mean "choice between that and death"? By you description your characters loot because they trying to get money for high-cost equipment.

Of cource when my characters are caught in dangerous places without weapons and armor they will loot. But they will loot not because this weapons can be sold, but because they're going to use looted weapons just here and now. Later, by my experience, they will barter it or just give it to their allies until they managed to get their own base of operations. From that moment they will loot high-level equipment and store it there, not sold it. But they won't loot everything just because "aaaah, it's ITEM!", they loot useful items.

Also the best effective fighter in my team using a weapon with Scarce aviability and one Average upgrade. Both he taken on generation and just trying not to lose.

Can you say how "making big cash reserves should just improve your influence", that is RAW (by defenition of Influence given on p. 140 - and it should be very big cash reserves to little Ifl raises, because local money just aren't matter on Imperial level; something about "local Forbes-level man should have +1 or maybe even +3 Ifl") is system of exchange based on "trade units"? That's very different ideas. Trade units are not needed.

You were talking about increasing influence because a large number of low quality items were traded at once. I may have misinterpreted the amount of influence you were giving out for this, but it seems like you created a pseudo-currency.

Examples :

10 lasguns = 1 chainsword Influence check +100 (Fail on 100)

9 lasguns = 1 chainsword Influence check +90

8 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +80

7 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +70

6 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +60

5 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +50

4 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +40

3 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +30

2 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +20

1 lasgun = 1 chainsword Influence check +10

No. I was talking about influence raising for hoarding a lot of local cash.

And no, it's not " 9 lasguns = 1 chainsword Influence check +90". It's "you're billioner, so write +1/+3 to your Ifl score, because you have some resourses; not very powerful, but it's resourses."

Even more, it's not matter how you take a lot of cash. But really, 10 lasguns will not place you on hive business "forbes-top". Feudal world is different of course but feudal world cash is even less useful.