Sun Djem

By eldath, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny RPG

I have noticed that in the writeup for this talent it states that the character may for 3 advantage disarm his opponent (with GM approval). Although I have used the proviso during a fight with a big bad (nemesis) I have come to question it. What are people's opinions on this?

I am considering altering it so that I either have to spend Destiny or the character has to spend strain.

The talent's fine as written.

In fact, the only thing it really does is allow the attacker to send the weapon further away, as the combat chapter already lists the option of spending 3 Advantage to disarm the target without regard to if you hit or miss. Sum Djem simply lets you place that weapon anywhere within Short Range.

Now, the whole idea of constantly using disarms, either the PC on their opponent or the opponent on the PC, shouldn't really be done. Save the disarming for a dramatic moment in the fight, not as a "go to" move every time you generate 3 Advantage on the combat check.

The Adversary talent (which a Nemesis usually has) gives the attacker upgrades on the difficulty and Sun Djem is an attack.

Edited by kingpin000

I think possibly I have not explained myself properly. My issue is with the wording. The phrase (with GMs approval), suggests that the use of this talent can be denied. Is this fair, given that the player has spent xp to get this should the GM be able to just flat out say no. This is why I am thinking about some sort of cost. It is not as if the talent has more than one use, one of which can be denied.

I think possibly I have not explained myself properly. My issue is with the wording. The phrase (with GMs approval), suggests that the use of this talent can be denied. Is this fair, given that the player has spent xp to get this should the GM be able to just flat out say no. This is why I am thinking about some sort of cost. It is not as if the talent has more than one use, one of which can be denied.

As you said, if it's something the PC has paid XP to get (and this talent is not cheap, given it's nestled in the 4th Row of the specs it shows up in), then denying their usage of it shouldn't be done lightly.

Akin to my earlier post, I'd suggest saving the "nope, no can do" for very dramatic moments, such as squaring off against a major-league nemesis in a duel.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the length of time for a combat round is fluid. While the default suggestion was about a minute, there's nothing saying that for the purposes of a dramatic duel you can't have a combat round be several minutes in length, with the combat check made for each participant reflecting a multitude of attacks, parries, and counterattacks as the two duelists go back and forth.

For run-of-the-mill combat encounters, let the PC make use of the talent as often as they want. As you say, they did pay for it, so it'd be kind of a **** move to deny them the ability to use it in most circumstances. But against an opponent of such terrifying caliber as Darth Vader, whose prowess with a lightsaber so outclasses the PCs, having Sum Djem fail to work (or that it works but Vader effortlessly calls his lightsaber right back to his waiting hand) makes sense.

Another suggestion is one that was bandied about back during the EotE days in regards to the Move power and it's ability to disarm someone, and that is to flip a Destiny Point to exert GM fiat and say the disarm trick isn't effective for the rest of the encounter. By spending a Destiny Point, you're refreshing a PC resource, so they won't have as much to complain about. It's a tactic employed by Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds RPG, where anytime the GM makes the hero's life more complicated via GM fiat, the hero gets a resource they can later spend to do something awesome.

Another suggestion is one that was bandied about back during the EotE days in regards to the Move power and it's ability to disarm someone, and that is to flip a Destiny Point to exert GM fiat and say the disarm trick isn't effective for the rest of the encounter. By spending a Destiny Point, you're refreshing a PC resource, so they won't have as much to complain about. It's a tactic employed by Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds RPG, where anytime the GM makes the hero's life more complicated via GM fiat, the hero gets a resource they can later spend to do something awesome.

This was one of the potential changes I had in mind.

I am considering altering it so that I either have to spend Destiny or the character has to spend strain.

Edited by eldath

The talent's fine as written.

In fact, the only thing it really does is allow the attacker to send the weapon further away, as the combat chapter already lists the option of spending 3 Advantage to disarm the target without regard to if you hit or miss. Sum Djem simply lets you place that weapon anywhere within Short Range.

Now, the whole idea of constantly using disarms, either the PC on their opponent or the opponent on the PC, shouldn't really be done. Save the disarming for a dramatic moment in the fight, not as a "go to" move every time you generate 3 Advantage on the combat check.

If you (not one of your characters -- you) had to be in combat a lot, and had the ability to deprive your opponent of his weapon... what's the first thing you'd do in a fight?

The talent's fine as written.

In fact, the only thing it really does is allow the attacker to send the weapon further away, as the combat chapter already lists the option of spending 3 Advantage to disarm the target without regard to if you hit or miss. Sum Djem simply lets you place that weapon anywhere within Short Range.

Now, the whole idea of constantly using disarms, either the PC on their opponent or the opponent on the PC, shouldn't really be done. Save the disarming for a dramatic moment in the fight, not as a "go to" move every time you generate 3 Advantage on the combat check.

If you (not one of your characters -- you) had to be in combat a lot, and had the ability to deprive your opponent of his weapon... what's the first thing you'd do in a fight?

If escape or talking them down wasn't an option, then I'd leave them as crippled and unable to fight back as possible, up to and including rendering them permanently crippled or dead if necessary. If they've pulled a weapon, disarming them of said weapon isn't going to do much to dissuade them.

But since we're talking about a narrative RPG that is not meant to be a tactical combat-simulator but instead meant to provide a dramatic game play experience, the question of "real life" is by and large moot.

The talent's fine as written.

In fact, the only thing it really does is allow the attacker to send the weapon further away, as the combat chapter already lists the option of spending 3 Advantage to disarm the target without regard to if you hit or miss. Sum Djem simply lets you place that weapon anywhere within Short Range.

Now, the whole idea of constantly using disarms, either the PC on their opponent or the opponent on the PC, shouldn't really be done. Save the disarming for a dramatic moment in the fight, not as a "go to" move every time you generate 3 Advantage on the combat check.

If you (not one of your characters -- you) had to be in combat a lot, and had the ability to deprive your opponent of his weapon... what's the first thing you'd do in a fight?

If escape or talking them down wasn't an option, then I'd leave them as crippled and unable to fight back as possible, up to and including rendering them permanently crippled or dead if necessary. If they've pulled a weapon, disarming them of said weapon isn't going to do much to dissuade them.

But since we're talking about a narrative RPG that is not meant to be a tactical combat-simulator but instead meant to provide a dramatic game play experience, the question of "real life" is by and large moot.

Interesting points. And if they are disarmed and the PCs continue to fight an unarmed opponent, that's some serious conflict.

The talent's fine as written.

In fact, the only thing it really does is allow the attacker to send the weapon further away, as the combat chapter already lists the option of spending 3 Advantage to disarm the target without regard to if you hit or miss. Sum Djem simply lets you place that weapon anywhere within Short Range.

Now, the whole idea of constantly using disarms, either the PC on their opponent or the opponent on the PC, shouldn't really be done. Save the disarming for a dramatic moment in the fight, not as a "go to" move every time you generate 3 Advantage on the combat check.

If you (not one of your characters -- you) had to be in combat a lot, and had the ability to deprive your opponent of his weapon... what's the first thing you'd do in a fight?

If escape or talking them down wasn't an option, then I'd leave them as crippled and unable to fight back as possible, up to and including rendering them permanently crippled or dead if necessary. If they've pulled a weapon, disarming them of said weapon isn't going to do much to dissuade them.

But since we're talking about a narrative RPG that is not meant to be a tactical combat-simulator but instead meant to provide a dramatic game play experience, the question of "real life" is by and large moot.

Thing is, I can guarantee that most of the people I've gamed with wouldn't hold back on disarms because it was "inappropriate to the narrative" or "killed the drama".

And if you asked why, they'd say "If I can reliably cripple, disarm, or otherwise neutralize an opponent, that's the first thing I'm going to do, not wait until it's "dramatically appropriate"".

Honestly, if I'm watching or reading something and it comes across like a character could have pulled a move to win the fight right at the start, but waited for "tension to build", that's the sort of thing that's going kick me out of the story and tempt me to throw the book against the wall in frustration. (See also, the last minute use of a power, weapon, or technique that the character had along, but only uses at the climax of the story -- if your mega-cannon could have wiped out the enemy fleet at the start of the battle, why the hell did you wait for half your ships to be destroyed and 1000s of your troops/crew to die before using it?)

If this is an issue when your players are facing (important) NPCs like end-of-adventure nemeses and so on, you can simply give them the Resist Disarm talent. Problem solved.

No self respecting important main boss should ever be stopped just by being disarmed. That should only slow them down for a very short period of time if at all.