Hi Guys,

Just wanted your opinion on one small house rule I've come up with ( Maybe someone thought about it here before, if so - I'm sorry! ).

Rule: Force user my concentrate to gain one blue dice at the cost of one Maneuver . Force user my then follow up with one more concentration Maneuver at the cost of 2 strain to gain additional blue dice to her roll. Obviously this is only applicable to force powers that require such roll like move with opposed checks etc. Basically just like aim. Narrative description for example: a hand gesture with force move, closed eyes for a brief moment, lotus positon etc.

Hit me with your thoughts guys, am I being over generous here? Will this make disturb the balance in the force ? ;-)

Art

On the surface it seems like a decent idea. There is a cost, just like Aim, which works for structured time.

I think though in a more "narrative" encounter it might be hard to weigh the penalty. If you're trying to Influence a Hutt and you lose a maneuver, it's not a real penalty because you're not in structure time.

*edited because I misunderstood you Whafrog. Now that I know what you mean I concur - I suppose this could be implemented only for structured time and assume that in "narrative" encounter one is always concentrating?

Does someone use the Force cavalierly? I sort of assumed you always concentrate and are trying to do your best as a baseline and using the Force. Any rule in regards to it should be more about if you're concentration is harder because of environmental circumstances.

Does someone use the Force cavalierly? I sort of assumed you always concentrate and are trying to do your best as a baseline and using the Force. Any rule in regards to it should be more about if you're concentration is harder because of environmental circumstances.

so setback dice?

If their concentration is being interrupted maybe. I could see adding boost dice when someone describes how they are spending an hour in quiet solitude in the peaceful grotto to meditate on trying to Forsee the future as a reward for a good narrative description. The problem with just awarding Boost dice as a sort of default throwdown like Aim, is why can't I Aim and concentrate with your rule? Can't I concentrate and do a a computer check? I think when someone is focusing on a given critical task concentration is more or less implied.

Does someone use the Force cavalierly? I sort of assumed you always concentrate and are trying to do your best as a baseline and using the Force. Any rule in regards to it should be more about if you're concentration is harder because of environmental circumstances.

I have to agree with this sentiment.

Narratively, because it just seems like any time we see someone use the Force, they concentrate. It's almost a requirement in the mythos that a person be in the right mental state to use the Force. A Jedi concentrates to calm herself while a Sith might concentrate on his anger, but both are focusing.

Mechanically, I just don't see a reason to let a player shortcut the Force so much. For two Strain you can net yourself two Boosts to a lot of Force Actions which then decreases the value of Discipline, Force Ratings, and Power trees. Getting Boost dice into those rolls should be a gain from a serious narrative moment. Maybe a party member just dove in front of a blaster bolt to protect the Jedi and the GM says, "Hey Jedi, you're feeling a swell of emotions right now. How about I give you a Boost die for every dark pip you use on this roll?" Then maybe give an extra bit of Conflict if the PC agrees to take the Boost.

I don't know just sort of spitballing here.

I think for a stepped up level of effort a PC has DPs to use and can then in turn describe that as their above and beyond+ level of effort they are exerting.

Does someone use the Force cavalierly? I sort of assumed you always concentrate and are trying to do your best as a baseline and using the Force. Any rule in regards to it should be more about if you're concentration is harder because of environmental circumstances.

I have to agree with this sentiment.

Narratively, because it just seems like any time we see someone use the Force, they concentrate. It's almost a requirement in the mythos that a person be in the right mental state to use the Force. A Jedi concentrates to calm herself while a Sith might concentrate on his anger, but both are focusing.

Mechanically, I just don't see a reason to let a player shortcut the Force so much. For two Strain you can net yourself two Boosts to a lot of Force Actions which then decreases the value of Discipline, Force Ratings, and Power trees. Getting Boost dice into those rolls should be a gain from a serious narrative moment. Maybe a party member just dove in front of a blaster bolt to protect the Jedi and the GM says, "Hey Jedi, you're feeling a swell of emotions right now. How about I give you a Boost die for every dark pip you use on this roll?" Then maybe give an extra bit of Conflict if the PC agrees to take the Boost.

I don't know just sort of spitballing here.

Hey man, awesome thoughts :-) Thanks for your input.

However :-P if you're only willing boost die for '' serious narrative moment'' then what's the story with aim? Why is aim not requiring a serious narrative moment ?

The principal seems the same?

I think when someone is focusing on a given critical task concentration is more or less implied.

Ok - that sounds logical sure - but same goes for shooting, 1) it's a critical task 2) you aim by definition - aligning your gun with your target. And yet you get to 'aim' even more - in fact you get to aim TWICE?

Yes but you propose no down sides to your houserule. Aiming has caveats like you have to perform the combat check as next action. If you take damage you lose its benefit. Obviously you can't aim at what you can't see. etc. You'd need to add caveats like you can't move, you have to close your eyes, you can't suffer damage, etc. You'd also have to open it up to every other non combat skill check in the game, or you're just making an unbalancing feature for the Force.

Yes but you propose no down sides to your houserule. Aiming has caveats like you have to perform the combat check as next action. If you take damage you lose its benefit. Obviously you can't aim at what you can't see. etc. You'd need to add caveats like you can't move, you have to close your eyes, you can't suffer damage, etc. You'd also have to open it up to every other non combat skill check in the game, or you're just making an unbalancing feature for the Force.

So it looks unbalanced - fair enough - that's the opinions I looking for - thanks!

Does someone use the Force cavalierly? I sort of assumed you always concentrate and are trying to do your best as a baseline and using the Force. Any rule in regards to it should be more about if you're concentration is harder because of environmental circumstances.

I have to agree with this sentiment.

Narratively, because it just seems like any time we see someone use the Force, they concentrate. It's almost a requirement in the mythos that a person be in the right mental state to use the Force. A Jedi concentrates to calm herself while a Sith might concentrate on his anger, but both are focusing.

Mechanically, I just don't see a reason to let a player shortcut the Force so much. For two Strain you can net yourself two Boosts to a lot of Force Actions which then decreases the value of Discipline, Force Ratings, and Power trees. Getting Boost dice into those rolls should be a gain from a serious narrative moment. Maybe a party member just dove in front of a blaster bolt to protect the Jedi and the GM says, "Hey Jedi, you're feeling a swell of emotions right now. How about I give you a Boost die for every dark pip you use on this roll?" Then maybe give an extra bit of Conflict if the PC agrees to take the Boost.

I don't know just sort of spitballing here.

Hey man, awesome thoughts :-) Thanks for your input.

However :-P if you're only willing boost die for '' serious narrative moment'' then what's the story with aim? Why is aim not requiring a serious narrative moment ?

The principal seems the same?

I'll preface with the idea that the Force is unique in SWRPG. It has its own dice, own mechanics, and its own rules. It's gets a section devoted entirely to it. Basically it's special.

The easy and contrite response is that Aim is in RAW and "concentrate" isn't. But that's a lame way to respond so I'll give my take on Aiming.

With Aiming I figure you have a few options:

1. You point and shoot. This is what we see the most of in Star Wars and other action movies.

2. You take a moment to aim using the sights. You are making sure the shot is good.

3. You are sniping. You're doing everything in #2, but are also focused on your breathing, watching the wind, calculating the coriolis effect (Though it's debatable whether it applies to a blaster bolt). Whatever else someone might do to really be accurate.

There is also the counter Aim which is when you are attempting to hit a particular spot. Say, I want to shoot a gun out of someone's hand, I have to add two Setback dice to my roll. Would your Concentrate have a similar effect of adding Setbacks when there are difficulties to concentrating? I'd say most encounters will make it difficult for the PC to concentrate. It's really rare that a character gets a chance to sit down in a lotus pose and meditate for a few moments before the action starts.

Still, I don't really have a dog in this fight. If you want to do it, then go for it.

I think the rule you are looking for already exists within the RAW. Look at the description of Discipline (F&D pg 120)

Using this as a base it's easy to extrapolate using a Discipline check as an attempt to gain Boost dice. The PC would use an Action to make a Discipline check against a difficulty based on the situation, any Advantages and/or Triumphs can be spent to buy Boost die for the PC's following action. The downside (balance) is the use of an action and the risk of gaining Setbacks but if the PC's Discipline is good it should be a positive gain more often than not.

Does someone use the Force cavalierly? I sort of assumed you always concentrate and are trying to do your best as a baseline and using the Force. Any rule in regards to it should be more about if you're concentration is harder because of environmental circumstances.

I have to agree with this sentiment.

Narratively, because it just seems like any time we see someone use the Force, they concentrate. It's almost a requirement in the mythos that a person be in the right mental state to use the Force. A Jedi concentrates to calm herself while a Sith might concentrate on his anger, but both are focusing.

Mechanically, I just don't see a reason to let a player shortcut the Force so much. For two Strain you can net yourself two Boosts to a lot of Force Actions which then decreases the value of Discipline, Force Ratings, and Power trees. Getting Boost dice into those rolls should be a gain from a serious narrative moment. Maybe a party member just dove in front of a blaster bolt to protect the Jedi and the GM says, "Hey Jedi, you're feeling a swell of emotions right now. How about I give you a Boost die for every dark pip you use on this roll?" Then maybe give an extra bit of Conflict if the PC agrees to take the Boost.

I don't know just sort of spitballing here.

Hey man, awesome thoughts :-) Thanks for your input.

However :-P if you're only willing boost die for ''serious narrative moment'' then what's the story with aim? Why is aim not requiring a serious narrative moment ?

The principal seems the same?

I'll preface with the idea that the Force is unique in SWRPG. It has its own dice, own mechanics, and its own rules. It's gets a section devoted entirely to it. Basically it's special.

The easy and contrite response is that Aim is in RAW and "concentrate" isn't. But that's a lame way to respond so I'll give my take on Aiming.

With Aiming I figure you have a few options:

1. You point and shoot. This is what we see the most of in Star Wars and other action movies.

2. You take a moment to aim using the sights. You are making sure the shot is good.

3. You are sniping. You're doing everything in #2, but are also focused on your breathing, watching the wind, calculating the coriolis effect (Though it's debatable whether it applies to a blaster bolt). Whatever else someone might do to really be accurate.

There is also the counter Aim which is when you are attempting to hit a particular spot. Say, I want to shoot a gun out of someone's hand, I have to add two Setback dice to my roll. Would your Concentrate have a similar effect of adding Setbacks when there are difficulties to concentrating? I'd say most encounters will make it difficult for the PC to concentrate. It's really rare that a character gets a chance to sit down in a lotus pose and meditate for a few moments before the action starts.

Still, I don't really have a dog in this fight. If you want to do it, then go for it.

As to the rest I'm not sure I'm convinced.

I was going to mention there is no way to balance an Opposed check using Boost and Setback dice as they aren't antipodes of one another. You'd end up having to toss out Opposed checks in all Force power situations and use Competitive checks for it to be actually fair.

I was going to mention there is no way to balance an Opposed check using Boost and Setback dice as they aren't antipodes of one another. You'd end up having to toss out Opposed checks in all Force power situations and use Competitive checks for it to be actually fair.

There is a precedent with Talents to eliminate one or the other. You could in these instances do this, or just roll both as even though they aren't exactly equal it's close enough at this scale.

I was going to mention there is no way to balance an Opposed check using Boost and Setback dice as they aren't antipodes of one another. You'd end up having to toss out Opposed checks in all Force power situations and use Competitive checks for it to be actually fair.

There is a precedent with Talents to eliminate one or the other. You could in these instances do this, or just roll both as even though they aren't exactly equal it's close enough at this scale.

Setbacks and Boost die aren't equivalent so when it comes to breaking a tie it's not balanced. It basically means the person offensively concentrating is always better than the person defensively concentrating.

One of the things i had thought the Light & Dark pips on the force die do in this system is to represent Calm vs Hasty use of the force. So when your using a Light Side pip it partly represents you drawing on your Calm and Concentration to achieve your goals. Whilst drawing on the Dark side is a representation of letting your emotions, haste and eagerness fuel your Force Powers.

So a player who is playing a Serene character is using only Lightside Pips, and because of this they often take longer to achieve their task. They are accepting of this though, believing in the will of the Force.

A player who is both Calm but also Emotional uses both sides of the force. But this PC regrets their hasty actions later on(Conflict and Strain cost), things happen quickly for them but there is a price.

And finally a player who is entirely emotionally driven often finds themselves frustrated that they are unable to get things done as quickly as they want as they are only drawing on the Dark Side pips. This further fuels their emotional rollercoaster. They are also so emotionally driven that its very hard for them to calm themselves long enough to achieve greater tasks (strain cost of Lightside Force Pips).

Edit: what I'm getting at but forgot to point out is that if you want to concentrate and calm yourself on a force check then just use Light Side force pips. its hard to do when your a beginner at using The Force (only 1 Force Rating) but as you gain power remaining calm and achieving great things gets easier and easier.

Qui-Gon Jinn fighthing Darth Maul had the time ;-)

I would chalk that up to a Talent, something like Improved Calming Aura or Centre of Being. Or even just taking actions while the ray shields are up to readjust Force dice Commitments...

Qui-Gon Jinn fighthing Darth Maul had the time ;-)

I would chalk that up to a Talent, something like Improved Calming Aura or Centre of Being. Or even just taking actions while the ray shields are up to readjust Force dice Commitments...

Good catch.

Anyway - I feel like I should explain why I came up with this. My players have weak force ratings and discipline skills - reason being is they came from Edge of empire setting and none of them was a force user prior to FnD book being released. So right now, every time they use force they're basically failing ;-) Was hoping this quick house rule could help out. ( Also I'm scabby on the xp so it will be a while before they're fr2 )

Anyway - I feel like I should explain why I came up with this. My players have weak force ratings and discipline skills - reason being is they came from Edge of empire setting and none of them was a force user prior to FnD book being released. So right now, every time they use force they're basically failing ;-)

That clarifies things. Technically you can't fail outright, because you always get at least one pip. Perhaps they are reluctant to use the dark pips because they feel the cost is too high. If you want you can always waive the Destiny Point cost and/or the Conflict cost, which might make it easier for now (I'd keep the Strain though).

The other thing is simply that the Force is hard to use and the road to mastery is long, which is honestly something I'm extremely grateful for with these mechanics. You don't say what powers your players are trying to use, but if they immediately gravitated to something flashy (e.g. Move), or they thought they were going to have the same kind of capacity for Force use as other games (e.g.: D20/Saga) then they're bound to be frustrated. Instead of that, encourage them to re-spec and pick "background" stuff like Enhance or Sense. These either boost skills or allow you to Commit a die, which is much more effective when your pool is small.

My players are in the same situation as yours, being non-F&D characters with FR1. But they're using Enhance and Sense and enjoying it quite a bit.

Anyway - I feel like I should explain why I came up with this. My players have weak force ratings and discipline skills - reason being is they came from Edge of empire setting and none of them was a force user prior to FnD book being released. So right now, every time they use force they're basically failing ;-) Was hoping this quick house rule could help out. ( Also I'm scabby on the xp so it will be a while before they're fr2 )

This is by design and it fit within the setting very well. Your PCs can and should use Dark Side pips while their powers are underdeveloped.

Qui-Gon Jinn fighthing Darth Maul had the time ;-)

I would chalk that up to a Talent, something like Improved Calming Aura or Centre of Being. Or even just taking actions while the ray shields are up to readjust Force dice Commitments...

Good catch.

Anyway - I feel like I should explain why I came up with this. My players have weak force ratings and discipline skills - reason being is they came from Edge of empire setting and none of them was a force user prior to FnD book being released. So right now, every time they use force they're basically failing ;-) Was hoping this quick house rule could help out. ( Also I'm scabby on the xp so it will be a while before they're fr2 )

What powers are they failing with and what are they trying to accomplish? Maybe give em a Holocron as a session reward that has ancient training information and gives them a rank or two of Disicipline.

I've adopted the following house rule (it's similar);

Concentration - Through concentration, a force user enters a state of calm, allowing them to reflect on their connection to the Force and more deeply explore their connection to it. By doing nothing else in the round, when making a check to activate a Force Power, the user may concentrate to accomplish one of the following things; Convert a Dark Side pip to a Light Side pip for no conflict (through reflection on the purity of her actions), add a Light Side pip to the result (through a strengthened connection with the Force), or add a boost die to any Opposed check that is taken alongside the Force Power use.