Like seriously. Just from the sad fact of being usually PS11: VI EU ATC.

What kills him? Is he bad against anything?

Now I think I know why he was predicted as Tier1.

EDIT: What do you take over or to kill Vader? Why, in detail?

Soontir Fel has a better dial and better defenses (Stealth Device + Autothrusters + Focus+Focus+Evade).

Crack Shot swarms, Twin Laser Turret, stressbot, and other such ace-killer builds can threaten Vader, the same way they threaten any other ace pilot.

Depends on what you're facing. Vader hits harder, but Fel is far stronger against turrets.

Soontir is arguably better simply because of his ability to take Autothrusters.

TLTs can eat Vader alive if there are multiple in a list. If there's only one, he certainly has no problem getting into their bubble. Multiple TLTs? Say goodbye to dice mods, and EU Vader is usually taking at least one Boost or Barrel Roll action a turn unless he's just in prime position. Vader, like other TIE/Adv, suffers from limited greens. If he gets double stressed from a Stresshog or Tactician + Gunner, he's out of the fight for awhile.

Soontir? He gets the hard-1 turn, arguably the best maneuver an arc dodger can have. He gets two Focus tokens and an Evade if he feels like it to go along with 4 defense dice and Autothrusters. Of course, a single mistake with Soontir will cost you around 35 points, and as always he's subject to the will of the Green Dice Gods. Still, though, he's a better bet for survivability due to sheer action economy.

That said, they're both fantastic aces. Rexler and Vessery, (personally I think they're great right now) will probably filter into the "top-tier" discussion once the TIE/D Titles are released.

The Inquisitor also gets Autothrusters, and "Omega Ace" has 'ace' in his name! But really, they'll be fantastic additions for cheap points to any Imperial list. Vader and Soontir dominate the 35-point category, but soon we will be able to take Rexler and Vessery for similar prices, while The Inquisitor and TIE/fos are cheaper.

Vader was never emperor. Oh wait JJ won't do the Soontir Dynasty, ****.

Vader is good but his problem is sitting in an advance, fairly predictable and those green dice fail me constantly. So Fel with autothrusters is better I think.

Vader was never emperor. Oh wait JJ won't do the Soontir Dynasty, ****.

Technically, he was. For like, two minutes. Then he died right after his master. But still, two minutes.

Like seriously. Just from the sad fact of being usually PS11: VI EU ATC.

What kills him? Is he bad against anything?

Now I think I know why he was predicted as Tier1.

Suddely le wild TLT appears

and you have no autothrusters >_>

Hmm. Point about TLT.

I haven't faced one recently, cuz I'm usually the TLT guinea pig practice buddy.

What about with Palpatine though? I feel like with the 2 shields, some arc dodging and Palp, Vader usually survives for longer or at least the same as Soontir.

Also PS wise, its much easier I think to beat Soontir or other aces with the PS11.

Dial wise I disagree with you all. Aside from easy turns, Soontir is mostly always stressed, thus hindering his movies to only the 2s and the 3 4 straights. Whereas Vader has his entire dial, including 1slights, 3 moves, 5 straight. Vader 4ks about as much as Soontir doesn't require a green. Moderately rarely.

Yes though. Point about Auto. I played against Fat Falcon also once with Vader. With Palp, he never took damage, even at R1. Just focus evaded and Palped each turn. Plinking the pancake for like 1 damage each turn. (Many times 1 crit).

Against TLT, I think you'd be ok too. Palp, and taking a few hits off TLT is not a big deal for Vader. He does have 5 hp.

----

Lemme change my question:

Are there aces you very very very often reach for instead of Vader?

In what circumstances?

What do you reach for to beat Vader?

For me, I don't fly Soontir well. Just doesn't do it for me. Also he hits like a ninny without Targeting Comp,and I like my Shield upgrade.

Carnor VI is funny, but too gimmicky.
Juno nope.

Whisper - Has a chance against Vader, but Vader is usually at least 5 less points, for more PS and more prediction vs aces.

Fel.

Ps11 is a "IN YOUR FACE, FILTHY FEL"

yes.

against any other target other than PS10-9 aces

Fel is better.

against PS7 and lower, Carnor is even more dramatic

How do you all use Fel to kill Vader?

Hell, how do you all use Fel?

How do you all use Fel to kill Vader?

Hell, how do you all use Fel?

Vader is counter-matchup against Fel.

against ALL the other targets Fel is better.

Why do you say this? I do not find this to be he case at all.

Why do you say this? I do not find this to be he case at all.

Swarm-munching: both hate blocks, both laugh at 2 attacks

PWT-hunting: Vader has no AT and 3 dice, not 4

TLT-hunting: same here

IG-Crab cracking: R3 autothrusters are a MUST

3-5 jouster-list eating: both have no problem whatsover.

Enemy ace list without initiative bid on your side: Vaders PS11 wins

I'm not sure why some of those need Auto thruster to be honest. especially if you have Palpatine.

Do you think without Palpatine that Soontir survives longer?

Soontir Fel has a better dial and better defenses (Stealth Device + Autothrusters + Focus+Focus+Evade).

Crack Shot swarms, Twin Laser Turret, stressbot, and other such ace-killer builds can threaten Vader, the same way they threaten any other ace pilot.

Yes it's pretty much this. Vader lacks only Autothrusters, and therefore is easier to hit for turrets than Fel.

However in a direct comparison, Vader with VI and EU can beat Fel because of higher PS. Normally i would pick Fel over Vader however in the current meta for general purpose lists.

Let my reply to the question put in the OP with edit: (Options instead of Vader)

None are better, but you have a few that are different and it depends on your play style and the rest of your list. All Aces have different costs and you might be able to fit them in more easily than you would Vader.

Fel I am not going to touch on other than to say that he is cheaper (Vader needs Engine Upgrade to get the same maneuverability) but a glass cannon. The Interceptor dial together with PTL and his ability let him move better than Vader and still modify his attack with a focus token.

Whisper/Echo are also interesting aces. They are not played as often now since they were released and they are meta dependent. If you tend to face PS9+ they are at risk. Otherwise, they are very difficult to get in arc and successfully shoot at. Echo especially is very difficult to predict and their Attack value of 4 makes them hit very hard. They too have a movement placement advantage and Echo is one of the most challenging to play with and against.

People tend to prefer Soontir Fel but there are also other Interceptor pilots that are viable. The Royal Guard is a cheap generic that is easier to fit in than other Aces and has an EPS. He's a great cheapy. Turr Phenir, with VI. I like a lot. Being able to shoot and boost out of the way makes it easier to evade arcs since you don't have to worry about dodging and keeping the enemy inside simultaneously.

Vader with VI, ATC and EU preys on other Aces but he loses effectiveness against low PS lists. The only reason to give him VI is to make sure he outmaneuvers the rest but there are other upgrades, like Predator, that would add to his damage output. VI is a meta card and can do absolutely nothing for you in some games. While the 1 point you pay is cheap, the slot it occupies is not. This means that against Soontir Fel Vader is deadly, against a flight of blue squadron B-Wings he starts to lose steam. Your less expensive Aces will still have similar advantages but at less of a price, letting you do more with the rest of your list.

I'm not sure why some of those need Auto thruster to be honest. especially if you have Palpatine.

Do you think without Palpatine that Soontir survives longer?

statistics tend to go DERP at some point.

autothrusters turn 1 fail-lank into win-evade

for example the opening salvo of a swarm hits my Crab bro with 1 evade token.

if not for autothrusters he would have lost 3 shields

he lost none

???

ALL HAIL AT

Love your thoughts Caius. And thanks too Warpman. Haha, you have a serious love affair with AT!

Here's the interesting thing, I've been finding that for the most part, do you really want to sink more points into an EPT? Acutally, I find its not that much more use. If Vader dies, its more effectiveness you lose with the rest of your squad, and he's usually a strong target.

Predator for 2 more points is quite a bit. You can get tons of upgrades for that.

I've been finding if I play right and cautiously and don't take damage, I can gain the damage i would have dealt with predator back simply by surviving a little longer and using other ships.

Also, my area is RIFE with PS9-11. So, yes, that VI comes in handy.

Bottom line:

Take both Fel and Vader

Problem is that Veteran-Vader is 2 points cheaper than Predator-Vader

Pred-Vader doesn't quite fit into Palp-mobile build

Vet-Vader does

pred-vader reaches phantom levels of firepower.

because you can dish out that 3 damage almost every time, and sometimes get that tasty rainbow R1 shot that can result in 4 damage, with guaranteed crit.

Maybe that's hot-blooded, but I just LIKE TO SEE SHIPS BURN

does anyone really like using Tar. Comp on Soontir? I just feel like he hits like a sissy. Auto or 4 dice and you wont get through the greens.

does anyone really like using Tar. Comp on Soontir? I just feel like he hits like a sissy. Auto or 4 dice and you wont get through the greens.

Common is HU or SU in combination with AT. More or less to your preference. I pick HU every time because there is so much auto damage in the game now, it usually covers its cost in every game. TC usually isn't needed. Unless you constantly are rolling below average it serves no purpose.

Eh, I just feel like Stealth Device does so much more for Soontir. HLCs still have a tough time punching through him with 4 dice to defend, but as soon as he drops to normal 3 agility it's like he becomes a glass dropped on concrete.

AT + Palp on Soontir is just amazing. Assuming you took an Evade, you can literally turn an all-blank roll at Range 3 or out-of-arc into 3 Evades.

I would only replace either of these upgrades with Targeting Computer if I somehow knew Soontir would be the highest PS and I'd have initiative in every game. He lives and dies by being able to avoid shots.

All that is to say I appreciate the utility Vader offers. He has a great deal of ways to be outfitted and maintain efficiency. Soontir, meanwhile, is virtually locked into his 35-point self.