I am not sure i understood cimmerianthief's comment about the assassin checking coordination for drawing weapon, unless that comment was not addressed at me.

But saying that Discipline is useless is weird as it's the skill you use against fear AND the main skill against Coercion, Deception and Leadership checks directed at the players.

That seems like more uses that even ranged which is only used when trying to shot something.

It seems to me that putting all the force powers under the discipline skill might be unfair to other characters who are not playing a jedi counselor. They are already invested in other skills heavily and now they need to invest even more to get a semblance of effectivity (if they have 2 will and now need to invest 30 xp more to get 2 yellow and 1 green which seems the average) when confronting something tough (with force protection). But writing this i also might understand that those other characters who are counselor are not good at those other skills the first ones invested in so it should even out. I guess.

Then i would ask, would you allow your players to use other skills instead of Discipline in certain Force checks? and if so, which ones and what skills?

Metushelah,

Given that combats are a certainty in most Star Wars games, with sessions having two or three such encounters, the combat skills are assured to see usage, often at least twice in a given combat (most combats tend to last between two to four rounds). But there's no assurance that a PC with a high Discipline is going to be targeted by a Coercion, Deception, or Leadership check during the course of every single adventure.

As for what skills to use other than Discipline for when the Force power doesn't outright specify one, that can vary wildly, though if anything I'd suggest having the attacker use Discipline and that what skill the defender uses to oppose the Force power vary based upon what effect is heading their way.

For instance, a Force user trying to use the Harm power to damage their opponent would roll Discipline in most instances (though perhaps Medicine could be an alternate option), but the target could choose to oppose with their own Discipline (the default option) or opt to use Resilience.to keep their body from being physically wrenched by the Force user's efforts.

Grabbing a Nemesis' weapon from their hand would be a Discipline check on the part of the PC Force user, but the Nemesis could oppose it with Discipline (again, the default) or perhaps Athletics to keep a firm grip on their weapon.

What you need to be careful of, and the point that I believe cimmeriantheif was trying to make with his posts, is to avoid letting the PCs come up with flimsy excuses to use skills that they've heavily invested in simply because it's convenient for them to do so. A PC that's invested heavily in Ranged (Light) or Ranged (Heavy) as generally done so because they routinely use a pistol or rifle in combat, both of which are far more reliable sources of damage than using powers like Move or Harm or Unleash, as Force powers are dependent upon generating sufficient Force points to have an affect, something that may not always happen no matter how high a PC's Force rating is (after all, if the destiny pool is all dark side, then a PC doesn't have a point to flip in order to convert any dark side pips into usable Force points), but is especially true at the lower end of the Force rating spectrum. For instance, allowing a PC trying to justify using their Skulduggery skill when trying to use Harm on an unsuspecting target, simply because they've got multiple ranks in Skulduggery with a high Cunning and no ranks in Discipline with a low Willpower.

I've seen this happen where players try to "justify" using a skill they're much better with simply because the most appropriate skill is one they're not very good at, and not just in this system but in other systems as well, with the worst offenders being combat-monster builds that focused entirely on combat-centric skills wanting to use those skills in non-combat situations (intimidation attempts seem the most common scenario for that kind of shenanigan).

Some referenced using a skill check to activate a Force Power. When the Force Power does not suggest a dice pool, the effects should happen without random adjudication. Similarly, imposing additional skill checks on Force Powers feels like asking a Gunslinger to painstakingly pass a Coordination check just to draw their weapons as typically expected.

Now i understand and i am ashamed to say that i might have been this guy you reference trying to manipulate so as to use his better skill.

In my case though i really wanted to play a secrecy jedi (shadow/ ataru) who is invisible to his opponents and strikes through the shadows using Stealth or Misdirect and maybe makes Illusions to scare his opponents. That is why i invested in a high agility (4) and cunning (4) as well as Misdirect but the more i read i suddenly see that i can't use my high Deception or Stealth together with my Misdirect attempts though i think it would make a lot of sense. At that point i felt "cheated" by the system because there are different kinds of jedi and they are all good at something else but here they all have to be good in Discipline to fuel their powers.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Now i understand and i am ashamed to say that i might have been this guy you reference trying to manipulate so as to use his better skill.

In my case though i really wanted to play a secrecy jedi (shadow/ ataru) who is invisible to his opponents and strikes through the shadows using Stealth or Misdirect and maybe makes Illusions to scare his opponents. That is why i invested in a high agility (4) and cunning (4) as well as Misdirect but the more i read i suddenly see that i can't use my high Deception or Stealth together with my Misdirect attempts though i think it would make a lot of sense. At that point i felt "cheated" by the system because there are different kinds of jedi and they are all good at something else but here they all have to be good in Discipline to fuel their powers.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

You're in good shape focusing on Deception with the Misdirect force power. The opposed check to cause illusions is in fact your Deception vs the opponents Vigilance. I believe the number of illusions that you can create is also related to your Cunning and ranks in Deception as well.

Some referenced using a skill check to activate a Force Power. When the Force Power does not suggest a dice pool, the effects should happen without random adjudication. Similarly, imposing additional skill checks on Force Powers feels like asking a Gunslinger to painstakingly pass a Coordination check just to draw their weapons as typically expected.

Very true.

Metushelah,

If the target of a Force power is a minion or a rival of minimal importance, then asking for some kind of skill check when the power doesn't require one to begin with is also unduly penalizing the PC, since they now have to effectively pass two checks (skill check and Force die) instead of just one.

For instance, the basic Sense power doesn't require a skill check, so you just roll your Force dice, and if you generate at least one Force Point, you can pick up the presence of all living things within short range. The only time a skill check might be needed is if the PC wanted to try and separate the sentient from the non-sentient.

Don't have my book handy, but if the basic Misdirect power doesn't call for a skill check already (pretty sure that it doesn't), then having to roll a Deception check just to use the power against some mooks falls under unnecessary dice rolling; just let the PC roll their Force die and if they get the Force points required, then the effect takes place, simple as that.

That i understand that against mooks the force works any time, and the mastery of Misdirect is also why i invested in cunning and deception. But to create illusions for example, even on mooks you need to use a skill check in it's description (as stated " unless already opposed the user MAY roll.... to make the target Experience the illusion the user needs to succeed on both checks") unless i am reading it wrong?

And the main issue was against rivals, which are more protected and suddenly your whole combat or character "Shtick" goes down the drain when you need to roll Discipline while in life you are a thief, or a dark side user who taps his own fears and emotion (my characters morale strength and weakness is cautious and fear, which seemed like a cool background to turn him into a Dread Lord in the future if it might come to that).

Is it on purpose so? that when a character who is "Disciplined" can easily negate ANY force power directed at him? doesn't it seem some what nihilistic and crippling even to those characters who are heavily invested in force powers?

Discipline is extremely important for a thief. Its even more important for a dread lord. What your missing is discipline is what keeps you from acting on pure impulse. The force is something that requires discipline to use light side or dark side. You have seen the scene where Luke is learning how to move objects and its all about concentration and focus. Using the force on the fly to create complicated illusions requires the ability to cut out all the distractions around you and make use of your mental strength to trick them. Without that discipline you won't have the focus required and your attempts will fail.

I'm sorry you didn't realize this would be required, but yes any user of the force who wants to be able to actively manipulate the force in any real capacity has to have discipline otherwise you won't be able to focus against all the distractions around you to make it work. Or in the case of the Dark Side force it to work by dominating it. Using the force is an act of will. be it in harmony with the universe or bending the universe to your will.

Remember the lesson of Jabba. Your mind tricks are only effective on people who are weaker willed then you...

I'm sorry you didn't realize this would be required, but yes any user of the force who wants to be able to actively manipulate the force in any real capacity has to have discipline otherwise you won't be able to focus against all the distractions around you to make it work. Or in the case of the Dark Side force it to work by dominating it. Using the force is an act of will. be it in harmony with the universe or bending the universe to your will.

Remember the lesson of Jabba. Your mind tricks are only effective on people who are weaker willed then you...

Requiring Discipline (with a capital 'D' to designate it as a game rule, not merely a concept like being at peace with one's self-control abilities)?

I reviewed the Enhance Force Power tree, and see no rolls based for or from Discipline (again with a 'D'). Therefore, Discipline is very useful for most Force Powers, but FFG realizes how some players may want a low Willpowered species to be a Force-User (without necessitating automatic XP dumps into Willpower every.single.time).

I think I can agree with the need for discipline (with a small 'd'), because it reflects what I have come to understand as the centrally-focused goals of most Force-users.

I never read the EU books so i don't know much more than what is in the movies and though i can argue against i can see your point.

It's ok by me i think, it's just a shame one finds out about it (especially if you are new) only after much digging into the the mechanics but we are all new in our group so i couldn't get much help.

Oh well, next time for now he will be only ok with 1 yellow and 1 green until i have more XP to invest in him.

Don't forgot how dice pools are built. You take the Characteristic and Skill Ranks then compare them. The highest number sets the total size of the dice pool - the number of Ability dice you start with - then the lower number sets the number of times that pool is upgraded.

As an example a character could have Willpower 2, Discipline 4. This results in a Dice Pool of 2 Ability and 2 Proficiency (AAPP)

So your character Metushelah may not have a high Willpower, but with 3 or even 4 ranks of Discipline you can have an exceptional dice pool for that one Skill.

Richard are you sure about the way it upgrades?

shouldn't it be just 3 yellows? as each time you buy a rank you upgrade an existing green, so the fourth rank goes to upgrading the third green die you bought with the third rank?

Edit: My god you are right! i just noticed it in the book, didn't know it worked that way. Thanks!

What counts as an "exceptional pool" and what counts as "good enough" ?

When is it "too much" that any challenge the GM puts up (in your skill) you just steam roll ? I would prefer to avoid it as it unbalances the game for the other players who are no so good at that particular skill

Richard are you sure about the way it upgrades?

shouldn't it be just 3 yellows? as each time you buy a rank you upgrade an existing green, so the fourth rank goes to upgrading the third green die you bought with the third rank?

Edit: My god you are right! i just noticed it in the book, didn't know it worked that way. Thanks!

What counts as an "exceptional pool" and what counts as "good enough" ?

When is it "too much" that any challenge the GM puts up (in your skill) you just steam roll ? I would prefer to avoid it as it unbalances the game for the other players who are no so good at that particular skill

No he is correct about the way it upgrades. I spent a long time being confused about that one myself until F&D came out and was a bit more clear.

Edit: I had the page open long enough to miss your edit.

Each of the standard difficulties are given specific names:

0D = Simple

D = Easy

DD = Average

DDD = Hard

DDDD = Daunting

DDDDD = Formidable

(Impossible is beyond that and the entire consequences of it are for another day)

Having the same number of dice in the Skill pool will yield slightly better than 50% success rate. Therefore any Skill pool of 3 dice or more is "better than average" or to put it another way "Average is easy for you"

For this reason I chose to describe 4 dice pools as impressive things, 5 is some of the best in the galaxy, 6 dice and you are the best... If you manage 7 then you have transcended and are no longer merely mortal.

All this leads to the general thought that if you can have 3 dice in a pool your better than average, you can do some cool stuff.

That Dice pool method also stands for Minions. This is a rule often incorrectly interpreted. Each minion in a group beyond the first provides 1 Skill Rank in each "minion skill" the group possess. The maximum Skill Rank any character can normally have is 5. Therefore a group of 6 OR MORE minions has 5 ranks in each of their skills.

statisticlly speaking each green die you add increases you chances by ~60% so if the number of dice positive and negative are equal it's 50% success chance than once you increase 1 more you are kinds guaranteed a success? (not considering setbacks now).

I am presuming than that capping your own abilities at 4 is a good idea so as to keep things interesting and not "rolling over" everything?

but having abilities on 3 actually makes it harder for you to get to the 4 dice pool via investing in skill ranks?

Thanks a bunch for sharing with me your knowledge so far, it's my first campaign in FFG Star Wars.

That's about the sum of it. Success is still never certain. I have seen people roll 8 advantage and a triumph on 7 positive dice (2 boost) but 1 despair and a failure on 2 negative dice and they failed. It's one of the cool things about these dice, for most advantage you roll your reducing the success, making failure more likely. But its still always a case of the more positive dice the better.

The main reason you would want to put 30 starting XP into raising a characteristic is if that characteristic is linked to multiple skills your wanting to be good at.

Whilst most of the time those skills will be relevant to the character, sometimes it's fun to also have a 3 in a characteristic that's not relevant to the character; Agility and Presence are good for this. Perhaps your character is a social butterfly, but with Agility 3 has a reasonable chace of landing a hit with a blaster, or piloting a ship in a pinch. Or maybe your a wilderness person, Scout or Pathfinder, but with Presence 3 you become a traveling gossip.

The Force powers Enhance and Influence can boost these "out of character" abilities too.

I feel like raising characteristics is a trap many players fall into. It took me quite a while to convince my group not to raise them so much and rely more on skill. Rolling felt better after they did and it ended up being the best campaign I have ran so far. For the most part I never raise more than a single characteristic on my characters and when I do its only by 1 point. Failing at things from time to time creates a much better story and saving the points gives you more options overall.

I feel like raising characteristics is a trap many players fall into. It took me quite a while to convince my group not to raise them so much and rely more on skill. Rolling felt better after they did and it ended up being the best campaign I have ran so far. For the most part I never raise more than a single characteristic on my characters and when I do its only by 1 point. Failing at things from time to time creates a much better story and saving the points gives you more options overall.

I disagree. I've found I have more options with higher characteristics than skills. Especially starting out. Also it's not really a trap if the game was designed specifically to do just that.

Also, you're just as likely to fail by sinking ex all into the attributes. If PCs aren't failing then the GM isn't hitting them where they're weak.

Response to Zauk.

Actually, raising skills instead of characteristics only saves you points only if you don't want to raise the skill a lot but still be competent at it (in which case you are raising the corresponding characteristic as well), or you only want to work with the skill in question among the skills tied to its corresponding characteristic.

A level of skill costs 50% of the cost to get the same level of a characteristic (disregarding the XP to get the first level or two of the skill), which means that if you want to be good at at least two skills tied to a single characteristic regularly, you want to raise the characteristic first.

I disagree with you saying that raising characteristics at character creation is a trap, considering that the only change you offer does nothing but make characters weaker and more specialised (I don't find anything wrong with that, if anything). It doesn't introduce any gameplay elements for the players, and I see that whether to do as you said is just a matter of taste.

It seems to me the way that the dice are made (their averages) and the way you build your dice pool (choosing the higher of the skill or characteristic then upgrading with the lower of the two) that it's better to have a characteristic at 2 or 4 but not 3 unless you want to singularly invest in only 1 skill dependent on that characteristic(be a master con artist with a skill of 5 in Deception but the rest of Skulduggery, Survival, etc will come from your Cunning) and be "Above Average" as Richard showed at the rest of those skills but not invest in them.

That's because, having more than 2 proficiency dice seems an over kill and makes the triumph symbol not so special, and needing to upgrade your skill 3 times before ripping the benefit of an extra die (which is better than an upgrade). Am i wrong about that?

It seems to me the way that the dice are made (their averages) and the way you build your dice pool (choosing the higher of the skill or characteristic then upgrading with the lower of the two) that it's better to have a characteristic at 2 or 4 but not 3 unless you want to singularly invest in only 1 skill dependent on that characteristic(be a master con artist with a skill of 5 in Deception but the rest of Skulduggery, Survival, etc will come from your Cunning) and be "Above Average" as Richard showed at the rest of those skills but not invest in them.

That's because, having more than 2 proficiency dice seems an over kill and makes the triumph symbol not so special, and needing to upgrade your skill 3 times before ripping the benefit of an extra die (which is better than an upgrade). Am i wrong about that?

I don't see where you are getting that from. Do you think that green dice are useless?

On the contrary, green is great. What i mean is that extra green > boost >= upgrade to yellow.

Not sure how you understood that i think green is useless.

I would always recommend a 3 in the primary characteristic of you PC concept, your first Dedication will likely bring that up to a 4.

Any other 3's will let your character be handy at more skills with less training, especially useful for skills outside your wheelhouse, such as a Face with 3 Agility.

This all comes back to the pre-set difficulty of some tasks, and the required triumph/advantage to trigger higher tier talents. So a 3 in most secondary skills is fine, but that primary will be simply awesome with a 5!

But having five dice with some training doesn't always equal success. Here is an example of a dice roll from a game I'm running, the character was trying to hide...

If I make myself smaller, they can't see me : 2eA+3eP+2eB+1eD+2eC 1 failure, 5 advantage, 1 Triumph

Didn't work! But the cool that came from the results was fun.

Yellow may not increase the success chance much, but it does increase advantage quite a bit, and Triumph is irreplaceable.