Okay looking over some Force powers and I am not sure which ones use Discipline to activate? As for Heal/Harm, I can understand the Heal aspect you just roll the Force die, because the person receiving the heal wants to take it. But as for the Harm aspect, do you roll Discipline to see if you "hit" with the ability? I take this from the "Move" ability and how you use Discipline to hit with that power. Have the same question for Protect/Unleash and attacking with Force Lightning, take it that's a Discipline roll as well to hit.

As for Misdirect do you just use the Force die, or do you roll Discipline, or could you even use Stealth? Want to make sure I run these right with my second group since they are all Force users.

Same question for Sense, but would they make a roll using Perception as the dice pull, including a Force dice? Or is just a roll of a Force die. Just rolling a Force die seems that one can not fail if they are willing to take the penalty for using a Dark Side pip.

I can even see just using the Force die, since it is the Force and powerful

I just went over this myself, as I am transitioning from running a EtoE game to starting a F&D game.

I don't have the book on me, but there's a large side bar a couple pages before the actual force power talent trees. It states that basically any power being used on a major NPC or any PC is contested.. unless it's already a combat roll (the only one that this applies to at this point is Unleash).

So the easy answer is that other then Unleash, they are all contested (usually discipline vs discipline) against PCs, named Rivals, and Nemesis.

For Harm I would use Medicine or Xenology, since it's your knowledge of the target's anatomy that would help.

For Misdirection I would use Deception more than Stealth, since you're affecting his mind.

Though I wouldn't argue if my GM ruled using Discipline for everything.

Technically none. As has been explained by Sam Stewart activating a force power is always successful. You may not generate the force pips you need to do what you wanted. But the power activated successfully. Directing that force power often times requires a discipline check or other checks.

For Harm I would use Medicine or Xenology, since it's your knowledge of the target's anatomy that would help.

For Misdirection I would use Deception more than Stealth, since you're affecting his mind.

Though I wouldn't argue if my GM ruled using Discipline for everything.

Bind: resisted w Athletics

Foresee: isn't usually contested, but if someone has the "Indistinguishable" talent I might make it a Perception check to see the specific individual, with diff equal to ranks in the talent. (Aka Palpatine clouding the Jedi's vision)

Harm: Xenology vs Resilience

Influence: Deception vs Cool

Misdirect: Stealth vs Perception

Move: throwing an object is an uncontested combat check w range modifiers and a diff based off of range. Personally I would allow Reflect (though not Improved). Picking up a person w the force is resisted by Coordination

Unleash is an uncontested combat check, ranged modifiers apply diff 2.

Seek: Vigilance vs Stealth

Sense: Perception vs Deception

Suppress is as written, Discipline is the only thing that makes sense.

Technically none. As has been explained by Sam Stewart activating a force power is always successful. You may not generate the force pips you need to do what you wanted. But the power activated successfully. Directing that force power often times requires a discipline check or other checks.

Pg 283 sidebar at the top of the page "Resisting Force Power Checks"

"When any character attempts to use a force power against a PC (or a PC attempts to use a force power against a powerful NPC, such as a Nemesis or plot-important named Rival) THE FORCE POWER CHECK BECOMES AN OPPOSED CHECK, if it is not already an opposed or combat check. This ALWAYS applies when force power targets a PC, and the GM can use his discretion as to when it applies to NPCs."

Thanks for all the great feed back. Going over the sidebar on page of 283 and reading all your responses makes allot of sense. I need to create a spread sheet and print it out for my players.

Move: throwing an object is an uncontested combat check w range modifiers and a diff based off of range. Personally I would allow Reflect (though not Improved). Picking up a person w the force is resisted by Coordination

Unleash is an uncontested combat check, ranged modifiers apply diff 2.

The difficulty of Move is based on the Silhouette of the item. Then modified by ranged defense, Side Step, Dodge, Adversary, etc.

Similarly, Unleash is an Average (2 purple) difficulty. Then modified by ranged defense, Side Step, Dodge, Adversary, etc.

Also, both could benefit from things that benefit ranged attacks: Aim, True Aim, etc.

The difficulty of Move is based on the Silhouette of the item. Then modified by ranged defense, Side Step, Dodge, Adversary, etc

Good catch.

Technically none. As has been explained by Sam Stewart activating a force power is always successful. You may not generate the force pips you need to do what you wanted. But the power activated successfully. Directing that force power often times requires a discipline check or other checks.

Pg 283 sidebar at the top of the page "Resisting Force Power Checks"

"When any character attempts to use a force power against a PC (or a PC attempts to use a force power against a powerful NPC, such as a Nemesis or plot-important named Rival) THE FORCE POWER CHECK BECOMES AN OPPOSED CHECK, if it is not already an opposed or combat check. This ALWAYS applies when force power targets a PC, and the GM can use his discretion as to when it applies to NPCs."

Yes. That does not change the fact that the power is always activated. It just may not do what you want or you may not have enough force pips to do what you want.

Question, a force-user uses the Influence power on a Jedi (he doesnt know it is a Jedi). The force-user rolls Force Rating + appropierate Social skill vs Discipline/Cool as per rules. Shouldnt the Jedi be allowed to roll his Force Rating too and let´s say for every 1 FP cancel the opponent´s 1 FP? Or flip one success/advantage like in case of Sabacc? Or is it handled somehow differently and I may have missed that. Thanks in advance!

Question, a force-user uses the Influence power on a Jedi (he doesnt know it is a Jedi). The force-user rolls Force Rating + appropierate Social skill vs Discipline/Cool as per rules. Shouldnt the Jedi be allowed to roll his Force Rating too and let´s say for every 1 FP cancel the opponent´s 1 FP? Or flip one success/advantage like in case of Sabacc? Or is it handled somehow differently and I may have missed that. Thanks in advance!

That's probably the purview of the Shadows "Slippery Minded" talent, essentially being strong in The Force doesn't mean you know how to use it, it's not an automatic thing, you need training and knowledge of how to use it. If you don't want to be mind tricked be a Toydarian!

Thanks for pointing this talent. I have missed it.

So I can give my Jedi NPC the "Slippery Mind" talent and he will have two layers of defense against the Influence power. First Discipline/Cool check and if this fails, the talent which represents his Jedi training.

Thanks for pointing this talent. I have missed it.

So I can give my Jedi NPC the "Slippery Mind" talent and he will have two layers of defense against the Influence power. First Discipline/Cool check and if this fails, the talent which represents his Jedi training.

You can also give him some ranks in Adversary, which will increase any checks against him. That would help too.

Thanks for pointing this talent. I have missed it.

So I can give my Jedi NPC the "Slippery Mind" talent and he will have two layers of defense against the Influence power. First Discipline/Cool check and if this fails, the talent which represents his Jedi training.

You can also give him some ranks in Adversary, which will increase any checks against him. That would help too.

Adversary specifically upgrades combat checks only.

It's so the GM doesn't have to track things like Dodge, Side-Step, etc.

Thanks for pointing this talent. I have missed it.

So I can give my Jedi NPC the "Slippery Mind" talent and he will have two layers of defense against the Influence power. First Discipline/Cool check and if this fails, the talent which represents his Jedi training.

You can also give him some ranks in Adversary, which will increase any checks against him. That would help too.

Adversary specifically upgrades combat checks only.

It's so the GM doesn't have to track things like Dodge, Side-Step, etc.

If you are using Discipline as a combat check (To Force Move a rock at the NPC), then it should apply, as that's very much a combat check, even though it's using a non-combat skill. In fact, other talents will sometimes specify that using a non-combat skill as a combat skill, still counts for things that specify that distinction.

I occasionally have adversary apply to non combat checks.. I'm not sure if Scathing Tirade technically counts as a combat check or not, but I definitely have adversary kick in.

My basic rules of thumb is, if it's going to drastically affect the outcome of the scene then it applies.

Thanks for pointing this talent. I have missed it.

So I can give my Jedi NPC the "Slippery Mind" talent and he will have two layers of defense against the Influence power. First Discipline/Cool check and if this fails, the talent which represents his Jedi training.

You can also give him some ranks in Adversary, which will increase any checks against him. That would help too.

Adversary specifically upgrades combat checks only.

It's so the GM doesn't have to track things like Dodge, Side-Step, etc.

If you are using Discipline as a combat check (To Force Move a rock at the NPC), then it should apply, as that's very much a combat check, even though it's using a non-combat skill. In fact, other talents will sometimes specify that using a non-combat skill as a combat skill, still counts for things that specify that distinction.

All true.

However, the example given was using Influence to bolster a social check.

All true.

However, the example given was using Influence to bolster a social check.

Ah, fair enough.

After much deliberation and not noticing what was written i am sorry to res this topic but in the "resisting force power checks" on pg 283 in F&D they state:

" The skills used in the check are up to the GM and the players involved, and they depend on the circumstances of the check. Generally, the attacking character can default to using the Dis ­ cipline skill, although in some cases, other skills may make sense. An opposed check involving the Seek power, for example, might have the attacking character use Vigilance, whereas a check involving the use of Influence in a social setting could use Deception or Charm. "

so basically you might find that using ranged skills also works with "Move" because you are good in understanding the ballistics of objects or use medicine to "Bind" someone because you know how his anatomy is affected.

So far i felt that Discipline became some what OP because i thought you had to use it unless stated otherwise and so it crippled other types of force users but i am happy i found this clause as it makes more sense and the force powers can actually benefit from my already invested in skills.

Actually with Move, the default (especially in EotE and AoR where the power also appears) has been to use Discipline for the attack roll. And the Discipline skill description itself in FaD cites that's what rolled when attacking with the Force.

Personally, I'd disallow the Ranged combat skills for attacking with Move as they already seen plenty of usage with ranged weapons, and it makes the combat-centric careers and specs even better at attacking, since they could use Move and a ranged weapon (which is generally far more reliable in terms of damage output, especially in the early going) with equal aplomb.

Actually with Move, the default (especially in EotE and AoR where the power also appears) has been to use Discipline for the attack roll. And the Discipline skill description itself in FaD cites that's what rolled when attacking with the Force.

Personally, I'd disallow the Ranged combat skills for attacking with Move as they already seen plenty of usage with ranged weapons, and it makes the combat-centric careers and specs even better at attacking, since they could use Move and a ranged weapon (which is generally far more reliable in terms of damage output, especially in the early going) with equal aplomb.

Not to mention that makes Discipline even less useful as a skill. It's got almost no application in the standard mechanics, aside from the occasional Fear check. It's almost useless, compared to all the other skills and how they can be used in multiple ways. To remove it from the Force talents as the skill related to using them (which would make zero sense in my opinion), would basically mean you might as well never bother investing in it. Unless you have a GM that tosses Fear checks at you every other encounter, there would be almost no reason to ever invest in that skill. Plus it makes more sense for it to be tied to Discipline anyway. To hit someone with an object using the Force, you aren't aiming with your eyes, so much as (at least in my narrative interpretation anyway):

1. Reaching out to, and touching the Force, drawing it's power to you

2. Reaching out and finding your target through the Force, that binds us all together.

3. Using the Force to accelerate the object, and pointing it at that Force beacon in your mind.

Those are way more of a mystic kind of thing, than just "I take aim and hurl at him." Yes, standard combat factors apply (but not range, which makes sense if you are aiming with your regular senses), but things like cover, and armor, etc, those count.

Would we ask an Assassin to roll Coordination checks to make sure they successfully draw their weapon, with all things being equal?

There is a risk that applying dice rolls to activate a Force Power (which was probably far more expensive, in XP, than getting another rank in Ranged-Light) will diminish the use of Force Powers by players who bought 'em.

Imagine a game where...

Player A: I unsling my blaster rifle and prepare to fire at the enemy!

Player B: I concentrate on the Force and prepare to (GM interrupts- "Okay, roll a whatever check to even use the Force.")...hmmm....grumble...I just grab my blaster, too.

I think you're reading something that isn't there to be read, and in so doing, set up pllayers for failure and disappointment when wanting to use the Force.

As far as saying Discipline (or any skill, really) pales in comparison to combat or social skills, I point at the GM for serving an unimaginative, vanilla D&D hack.

When my force user makes a Force roll, for example to activate the Sense power, I also ask for a Discipline check with the difficulty based on how much he/she has invested in the power (from 1 to 3 purple). The result gives me idea how much information he/she gets about the living beings in his/her range.

"The user may spend (dot) to sense all living things within short range (including sentient and non-sentient beings)."

Depending on the Discipline check, I let player know wheather he/she makes distinction between sentient and non-sentient, what races they are, their positions, etc.