(Unless it appeared he intentionally did that out of order, which I could see him doing.)
I was thinking the same thing. You could totally abuse that ruling to get white stop maneuvers on almost any ship you wanted (albeit without an action after)
2016 Store Championship Results
[prays a certain someone doesn't get any ideas]
Well, I'm glad you managed to make the snub take his own medicine.
Yeah, his Y wing and Z-95 both ended up not having shots that round as a result. Mind you my formation early on was royally screwed up because of the same shenanigans. It was my bandit soloing 3 TLTs.
I won at time 62-38. He had a 1HP Z-95 plus a Y-wing left vs both my K-wings. It would have been 100-38 if I had been able to finish the game out, but we wasted a lot of time discussing the round 4 action / maneuver denial. It would have gone a LOT worse for him if my ships were actually allowed to maneuver early on like they should have been, actions or no. I would have had a bunch of extra TLT shots on his Y-wings and Miranda.
Another Michigan Store Champ happened this weekend! (2 Actually, but I only went to 1). This one was at Get Your Game On in Pontiac, MI.
17 players, 4 Rounds, cut to Top 4 (sort of...you'll see in a moment)
1st Place - Charles T. (3-1 in swiss)
Soontir + PTL + AT + Stealth + Title
Vader + LW + X1 + ATC
Omicron Pilot + Palpatine + Sensor Jammer
2nd Place - Nick L. (Paragoomba Slayer) (3-1 in swiss)
5 x Alpha Squadron Pilots + Autothrusters
Top 4: (Both conceded at time of cut due to already having an SC win
, so really, only a Top 2 cut, haha)
Michael O. (3-1 in swiss)
Dash + PTL + Kyle + HLC + Outrider + Engine
Miranda + TLT + Adv Slam + Prox Mines + Other upgrades I didn't see (maybe Extra Munitions)
Phillip H. (me) (4-0 in swiss, 746 MoV)
Vader + VI + X1 + ATC + Engine + Proton Rocket
Vessery + VI + HLC + Hull
Zeta Squadron Pilot
Good event! Good fun and playing by all! Just wanted to share the data points and my experience! Charles or Nick might have more to say on their ends! I was sad the TO didn't bump up 5th and 6th place players to take the spot of the drops, it would've been way more entertaining and seems way more fair to me, but alas, TO gets the last say! Haha.
HLC Vessery is pretty cool when he's alongside Vader, as they both are high priority targets, that sort of thing. Either of them can dish out the damage when acting alone, and their combined fire = top notch, haha. The Zeta mostly provided TL's, but did get to be a major blocker for at least 1 match, and helped kill a Palpmobile in another. All of my matches were pretty cool, but the highlight was beating a CrackSwarm with 1 Hull left on Vessery. The highlight of THAT highlight was when my opponent thought he killed Vessery when he dealt the 3rd damage card. But alas, Vessery had a hull upgrade, and I won on time vs the 2 Black Squadron Ties
The last game I was positioned between Soontir and Vader. Instead of just 5 straighting towards Vader and blowing him away, I tried a 2 straight to try and catch Soontir. I then lost the game. Sometimes I over think things and think my opponent is going to play tricks on me and swerve away with an Ace, when in reality my opponent is new and is just going to do a 1 bank with Vader and I can catch him if I want to. If you've ever read the book Failsafe, you'd know what I'm talking about. It's about a nuclear bomber crew that is sent to bomb Moscow because of a malfunction in the "failsafe" system. It's full of generals talking about how certain things could just be Soviet tricks and constantly second guessing themselves, when in reality it's just a Canadian airliner that lost engine power temporarily and dipped below radar for a bit, and not a Soviet plane filled with nuclear warheads just made to /look/ like a Canadian airliner.
Feel kind of weird about it, just being shoved from Swiss to finals. Michael O. dropped because his list autoloses to mine and he didn't want to face me and he was also the last surviving player in a 4 person carpool so he dropped.
Crackswarm was tough for me. I didn't manage to get any range 3's during that fight. Had I gotten a round or two of those in it would have been much closer, as my ships would have a sever advantage at range 3. It's what I lost to.
Faced a Palp shuttle with Omega Leader and some Crack Squadrons and Wampa also I think. Blew it away. When my opponent rolled up at range one with his Crack Squadrons, he moved all his PS 4 ships at the same time without doing any actions. When he went to put focuses on them, I denied them all except for the last ship to move, helped a little. Still would have won without it, but I went 200-0 that round.
Next two rounds faced a Miranda and PtL Chewy, and TLT Y, Miranda, Nera build. Killed off the Y, then Miranda started running at one health, so I swerved towards the B-Wing and took it down from full health with 4 Interceptor shots in a single combat phase. My opponent then left the table for a a minute to tell his friend about it, haha. Serves him right for that obnoxious guess of 1 on one health Miranda that saved her ass.
PtL Chewy and Miranda was almost close. PtL Chewy killed 2 Interceptors in two successive turns, but I killed it easily. Then there was a drawn out fight with Miranda. She had 4 Ion Bombs which didn't really matter that much, and Luke crew which didn't net him any damage against autothrusters but was cute. Had to have an argument when one of my ships overlapped another barely on the slanted side of the base, and my opponent insisted that it didn't actually count as overlapping, just touching and that's why the bases are slanted on the side. It mattered because I would benefit immensely from bumping my own ship and remaining stationary. It was resolved when some other players agreed with me. TO didn't have any knowledge of the game's rules so had to get the opinions of others.
But yes, 5x Autothruster Alpha is actually good in a meta with a bunch of turrets in it.
Also, if my opponent moves a bunch of ships simultaneously but declares that he's going to focus with all of them or he states that he's going to focus with each one individually as he's moving them, waiting to put the tokens down after they've all moved, those would not be missed opportunities. The opponent you faced is ridiculous, and this is coming from someone who considers himself a WAAC player. That the TO would then allow dials to be treated as missed opportunities is even more ridiculous.
"Whoops, looks like I moved my one Obsidian before my 7 Academies, looks like I can't move them, aw shucks."
Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer
Another Michigan Store Champ happened this weekend! (2 Actually, but I only went to 1). This one was at Get Your Game On in Pontiac, MI.
17 players, 4 Rounds, cut to Top 4 (sort of...you'll see in a moment)
1st Place - Charles T. (3-1 in swiss)
Soontir + PTL + AT + Stealth + Title
Vader + LW + X1 + ATC
Omicron Pilot + Palpatine + Sensor Jammer
2nd Place - Nick L. (Paragoomba Slayer) (3-1 in swiss)
5 x Alpha Squadron Pilots + Autothrusters
Top 4: ( Both conceded at time of cut due to already having an SC win
Michael O. (3-1 in swiss)
Dash + PTL + Kyle + HLC + Outrider + Engine
Miranda + TLT + Adv Slam + Prox Mines + Other upgrades I didn't see (maybe Extra Munitions)
Phillip H. (me) (4-0 in swiss, 746 MoV)
Vader + VI + X1 + ATC + Engine + Proton Rocket
Vessery + VI + HLC + Hull
Zeta Squadron Pilot
Good event! Good fun and playing by all! Just wanted to share the data points and my experience! Charles or Nick might have more to say on their ends! I was sad the TO didn't bump up 5th and 6th place players to take the spot of the drops, it would've been way more entertaining and seems way more fair to me, but alas, TO gets the last say! Haha.
HLC Vessery is pretty cool when he's alongside Vader, as they both are high priority targets, that sort of thing. Either of them can dish out the damage when acting alone, and their combined fire = top notch, haha. The Zeta mostly provided TL's, but did get to be a major blocker for at least 1 match, and helped kill a Palpmobile in another. All of my matches were pretty cool, but the highlight was beating a CrackSwarm with 1 Hull left on Vessery. The highlight of THAT highlight was when my opponent thought he killed Vessery when he dealt the 3rd damage card. But alas, Vessery had a hull upgrade, and I won on time vs the 2 Black Squadron Ties
Feel kind of weird about it, just being shoved from Swiss to finals. Michael O. dropped because his list autoloses to mine and he didn't want to face me and he was also the last surviving player in a 4 person carpool so he dropped.
I've been repeatedly told that Alpha Squadron pilots are bad. 5 of them with Autothrusters is actually good, especially when everyone is going to be flying turrets.
Faced a Palp shuttle with Omega Leader and some Crack Squadrons and Wampa also I think. Blew it away. When my opponent rolled up at range one with his Crack Squadrons, he moved all his PS 4 ships at the same time without doing any actions. When he went to put focuses on them, I denied them all except for the last ship to move, helped a little. Still would have won without it, but I went 200-0 that round.
You have an uncanny ability to marry the worst and best parts of this game. I'm glad you had some success with ships that aren't considered "good," but ****, man.
However, I am very pleased to see the overwhelming representation of Imperial squads in that top 4. It's a nice change of pace.
Level up Gaming Oceanside, CA 3/13/16
28 Players
Winner (yours truly) Gordon McDonald (4th in Swiss)
IG88B&C: Crackshot, HLC, FCS, Glitterstim,Autothrusters, Title
Second Place: Don Tolentino (2nd in Swiss)
Han Solo: VI, 3P0, Luke crew, EU, Title
Poe: VI, R2D2, Autothrusters
Top 4: David Wong (1st in Swiss)
Miranda: TLT, Tactician
Stressbot
Gold Squadron TLT
Bandit
Top 4: Glen Smallman
Palp Shuttle
Howlrunner crackshot
Scourge crackshot
Mauler crackshot
Wampa
Top 4: Marshall:
Bossk: VI, K4, Engine, Tactician, Feedback Array
Kath: VI,HLC, K4, Engine
Mitchell:
Palob: TLT, Moldy Crow, Expert Handling, Tacticitian
Guri: Autothrusters, Predator
Talonbane Cobra: Expert Handling, Glitterstim
Not bad for only having played once (last Monday) since Worlds.
Just a slight correction: I had Intelligence Agent on Palob, instead of Tactician.
Congrats, though! It was a pleasure watching you pilot your TIE Swarm.
Top 4: Marshall:
Bossk: VI, K4, Engine, Tactician, Feedback Array
Kath: VI,HLC, K4, Engine
Mitchell:
Palob: TLT, Moldy Crow, Expert Handling, Tacticitian
Guri: Autothrusters, Predator
Talonbane Cobra: Expert Handling, Glitterstim
Not bad for only having played once (last Monday) since Worlds.
Just a slight correction: I had Intelligence Agent on Palob, instead of Tactician.
Congrats, though! It was a pleasure watching you pilot your TIE Swarm.
Fixed. Sorry, I was taking that from Wade's report, since I didn't actually play you that day. Congrats on top 4, again!
Regarding the multiple dial reveal issue brought up in MajorJuggler and ParaGoomba Slayer's posts, were I a TO (which I am not, nor ever hope to be) I would rule that if simultaneous dial reveal happened earlier in the game state and the opponent didn't say anything they are giving consent to that marginally more casual style of play. Calling you on it later in the game for a tactical advantage? Sorry, you missed that opportunity.
Edited by NyarrRegarding the multiple dial reveal issue brought up in MajorJuggler and ParaGoomba Slayer's posts, were I a TO (which I am not, nor ever hope to be) I would rule that if simultaneous dial reveal happened earlier in the game state and the opponent didn't say anything they are giving consent to that marginally more casual style of play. Calling you on it later in the game for a tactical advantage? Sorry, you missed that opportunity.
That's a good call. (Really.)
And to really baffle your opponent -- remember shouting "Coup Fouré!" in Mille Bournes? -- you should yell, " Estoppel! You are estopped! "
As it happened, later in the game my opponent accidentally revealed a dial and executed a maneuver for a PS8 ship before his PS2 and PS4 ships that both still had unrevealed dials. I called the TO over, and the TO ruled that to be consistent with his previous ruling the PS2 and PS4 ships could not maneuver or take actions. "Stop-Wing" resulted again, so in total we had 5 ships during the course of the game that did not move.
In Australia that warrants a loud nasally augmented response of "Suffer in your jocks mate".
Is that the Australian version of "hoisted by your own petard"?
Level up Gaming Oceanside, CA 3/13/16
28 Players
Winner (yours truly) Gordon McDonald (4th in Swiss)
IG88B&C: Crackshot, HLC, FCS, Glitterstim,Autothrusters, Title
Second Place: Don Tolentino (2nd in Swiss)
Han Solo: VI, 3P0, Luke crew, EU, Title
Poe: VI, R2D2, Autothrusters
Top 4: David Wong (1st in Swiss)
Miranda: TLT, Tactician
Stressbot
Gold Squadron TLT
Bandit
Top 4: Glen Smallman
Palp Shuttle
Howlrunner crackshot
Scourge crackshot
Mauler crackshot
Wampa
Congrats Gordon! (this is Henry, the one you annihilated in round 3 RAC/Fel)
Apparently "Stop-Wing" is a thing.
... what on earth?
I take it this wasn't the usual Fortress shenanigans?
No, this was just me trying to make sense of how a win-at-all-costs player was attempting to deny me actions, and a resulting strange TO ruling that caused ships to completely skip their activation altogether. My email to Alex and Frank is quoted below.
Alex emailed me back and said that in the case of a simultaneously revealing multiple dials of same PS ships, the offending player actually CAN be forced to lose his actions (regardless of any verbal declaration), but the reasons for this are not formalized in the rulebook, FAQ, or tournament rules. I.e. they have an internal ruling on this, but John Q Public has no way of knowing about it, and it's technically not official until it is in the rules. This should be addressed in the future.
I came across a rather strange scenario this last weekend that I believe warrants an FAQ or tournament rule clarification. The fundamental issue: I do not believe that the rules state what to do when a dial is revealed out of order.From the Core 2 Rulebook:ACTIVATION PHASEDuring the Activation phase, each ship is activated one at a time, starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill and continuing in ascending order. Each ship resolves the following steps in order: ...It is technically unclear what happens when either of the following happens:
- Multiple dials are revealed simultaneously with the same Pilot Skill
- A higher Pilot Skill dial is revealed before a lower Pilot Skill dial
Here's the background and specific scenario. I was flying my PS2 ships in formation, and executing the same maneuver with all of them. I would verbally declare something like "They are all moving forward 1 and focusing", then flip all my dials and perform the movements. This could technically be construed as not per the above rules which state that each ship is activated one at a time. However for the first several rounds my opponent did not care.Then, on the first round where we would have shots fired, after I executed the first maneuver he interrupted and said "You do not get any actions because it is a missed opportunity." His argument is that when you reveal a dial, you initiate activation for that ship. Therefore, since the previously activated ship did not yet perform an action, it has missed its timing window to perform the action. He quoted this section of the Tournament Rules v4.0.1:Missed OpportunitiesPlayers are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent.Note that under his interpretation of how activation is triggered, the verbal declaration of taking an action is irrelevant. Even if I verbally declare it before executing any maneuvers (i.e. I do not "forget"), the physical act of revealing the next dial allows him the right to deny all actions. I was later informed by another player that he does this every game he can at competitive events in order to gain an advantage in the first round of combat. I later asked him why he did not bring this up in the initial 3 rounds, and his response was "because it did not matter".So here is the conundrum. He is correct in that ships must be activated in order, and therefore dials should be revealed one at a time. Therefore I was not playing by the strictest interpretation of the rules. The natural reaction is to assume that the offending player should be punished, and therefore be denied his actions. However this is purely an emotional response, and cannot be formed into a cohesive logical argument consistent with the rules, game-state, and timing windows (more on that below). The rules do not actually say one way or the other what happens when a dial is revealed out of order. Note that this situation is different than revealing a dial, executing a maneuver, and then revealing a new dial before performing an action on the first ship. That would indeed be a clear case of forgetting to take an action.His initial argument was that the simultaneous dial reveals should be treated as separate sequential dial reveals, and each ship would still execute its maneuver on its dial, but not perform its action. This would result in the following timing of the game-state:
- Dial for ship #1 is revealed, so ship #1 becomes the active ship.
- Dial for ship #2 is revealed, so ship #2 becomes the active ship.
- Dial for ship #3 is revealed, so ship #3 becomes the active ship. Ship #3 executes its maneuver and may perform its action as it is the last ship in the chain and its activation was not interrupted.
- Ship #1 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
- Ship #2 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
The problem is that per the Core2 Rulebook, each ship must be activated one at a time, and cannot be activated more than once. There is a timing window for each stage of activation: 1) reveal dial 2) execute maneuver 3) perform action. Therefore, if a ship has passed it's timing window to perform an action (3), then by definition it must ALSO have passed the timing window of executing its maneuver (2) and revealing its dial (1), because the steps MUST occur in order of 1, 2, 3, even if 3 is optional. The problem is that none of the ships had yet executed their maneuvers. Therefore, using his own interpretation of the rules (revealing a dial immediately activates that ship, short-circuiting any remaining activation steps on a previous ship), the offending ships would not only skip their actions, but they must also skip executing their maneuvers as well.I was attempting this line of reasoning to the Tournament Organizer, to illustrate that the player's argument breaks the fundamental rule that ALL ships MUST execute a maneuver each round. The TO actually agreed with the argument that the ships would lose their opportunity to execute a maneuver, but he did not agree that all ships must execute a maneuver. The TO ruled that my remaining ships could not execute their maneuvers or take actions, so I had one ship execute a maneuver while the others stayed stationary for an entire round.We had entered an alternate universe called "Stop-Wing".As it happened, later in the game my opponent accidentally revealed a dial and executed a maneuver for a PS8 ship before his PS2 and PS4 ships that both still had unrevealed dials. I called the TO over, and the TO ruled that to be consistent with his previous ruling the PS2 and PS4 ships could not maneuver or take actions. "Stop-Wing" resulted again, so in total we had 5 ships during the course of the game that did not move.
I agree with the above poster that by allowing it earlier he essentially set the standard for how it would work and that it was pretty poor sportsmanship to call you on it later.
I also think it's good to clarify the first time you ask whether it is an acceptable practice for the remainder of the game or is just something you do in the opening move.
Edited by AlexW
Statistically SC data is a better measure of ships' effectiveness. There is a lot larger sample, larger variety of players, and variety of lists. The data just needs to be cleaned up if you want a good picture.As you climb up the "ladder" of championships, winning lists become more about countering other effective lists, which may contain effective ships, but also tends to leave out other effective ships.
Well, you're consistent, I'll give you that. It seems that just about anytime I post anything relating to math or statistics, you find a way to disagree with me. I'm pretty sure that I could re-post what you said, in slightly different words, and you would still argue with me.
And your solution is to insult me rather than learn or debate your point... I comment whenever I see poor analytical or statistical reasoning hiding behind math because it can be misleading to the community.
While I understand how more data can be more useful in a lot of situations, I feel like player skill level generates a lot more noise than that extra data. I'm not a statistics major, so maybe you could explain how that amount of data is more beneficial.
Also, in my experience as an X-wing player over the last three years, I think smaller tournaments like most SCs can be much more about countering popular lists than regionals are. Don't get me wrong, making a good meta call takes place in both situations, but the smaller the tournament, especially one with a lot of known players, the easier it is to come up with a counter to more lists. I've won local tournaments this way alone -- not because my list/ships were particularly strong but because they were very strong counters to what was popular at the time. They were lists I'd never consider for a larger regional tournament. Not to mention, at a smaller tournament, players have a better chance of meeting lists that are "better" than their own and simply beating them based on their skill level.
In the end, I think that SC give us very good data about what is likely to win at the local level, but don't give a good idea of what the most successful ships or lists are overall. If you have a method for parsing out the data so that it does this, I think it would be productive for you actually do that than to just point out what is wrong with other people's methods. There's nothing wrong with the latter, but it isn't very effective if you don't have numbers of your own to support your conclusions.
Let me clarify that if I were to do this, it would be to measure a ship's (or a list's) effectiveness across as wide of a scope as possible, and not directly what meta choice you should make to become a national or world champ. For the latter math and statistics aren't really going to help much, instead just read the forums, make a list that effectively counters what's popular, train and practice as much as possible against said lists, and probably most importantly, learn to play long days of x-wing while staying sharp with decision making up to the end.
Given that we're talking about measuring ships' effectiveness across the board, we want as much data as possible (not just SC, but all tournaments), to reflect as many metas, match-ups and degrees of player skill as possible, so we can effectively control for them (since we're trying to measure ships/upgrades/lists, not players, metas, match-ups). For instance, if someone does very well a truly bad ship in a tournament, that outlier data would be brought more inline by all the other games that would be considered more "average" games. With all of that in place we could ask questions of probability, and also measure degrees of certainty of how accurate those answers might be. Most importantly it would paint a good picture of how well balanced or imbalanced the game actually is, since it would take into account for more abstract concepts that straight math alone can't really do. Up until this point, I didn't think there really was enough data to accurately measure this, but with how much the game and List Juggler has exploded recently my thoughts have changed. The thing is, it would become less valuable as each new wave is released, which makes the data from Jan thru March the best yet, but would already become a bit stale once Wave 8 releases in a few days. Constant waves paired with potential changes on the horizon, it may be hard to keep a steady finger on the pulse as those changes happen. It'd be a lot of work and currently at this point in my life I don't have the time/resources to do it properly.
1) Michael O. dropped because his list autoloses to mine
2) When my opponent rolled up at range one with his Crack Squadrons, he moved all his PS 4 ships at the same time without doing any actions. When he went to put focuses on them, I denied them all except for the last ship to move, helped a little.
3) Serves him right for that obnoxious guess of 1 on one health Miranda that saved her ass.
4) ...and Luke crew which didn't net him any damage against autothrusters but was cute.
5) this is coming from someone who considers himself a WAAC player.
1) No it doesn't. There is no such thing.
2) Around here we understand that as something that speeds up a game and allow it all the time. Usually the action is declared as soon as the dials are revealed and the ships start moving. But then we're understanding people and not complete jerks.
3) Sounds like he made the right call to keep her alive. How is playing correctly obnoxious?
4) The condescending tone is really unnecessary on top of everything else.
5) Thank you for clarifying. We really had no idea.
2nd Place - Nick L. (Paragoomba Slayer) (3-1 in swiss)
5 x Alpha Squadron Pilots + Autothrusters
Gotta respect that!
Consider my enthusiasm curbed.
1) Michael O. dropped because his list autoloses to mine
2) When my opponent rolled up at range one with his Crack Squadrons, he moved all his PS 4 ships at the same time without doing any actions. When he went to put focuses on them, I denied them all except for the last ship to move, helped a little.
3) Serves him right for that obnoxious guess of 1 on one health Miranda that saved her ass.
4) ...and Luke crew which didn't net him any damage against autothrusters but was cute.
5) this is coming from someone who considers himself a WAAC player.
1) No it doesn't. There is no such thing.
2) Around here we understand that as something that speeds up a game and allow it all the time. Usually the action is declared as soon as the dials are revealed and the ships start moving. But then we're understanding people and not complete jerks.
3) Sounds like he made the right call to keep her alive. How is playing correctly obnoxious?
4) The condescending tone is really unnecessary on top of everything else.
5) Thank you for clarifying. We really had no idea.
2nd Place - Nick L. (Paragoomba Slayer) (3-1 in swiss)
5 x Alpha Squadron Pilots + Autothrusters
Gotta respect that!Consider my enthusiasm curbed.
Being there, it was unfortunate that a lot of the top players decided to/had to leave after the top 4 was cut and the prizes given out. Wished the TO would've decided to actually have a real final top 4 as it should be. As a person playing in his first year of SCs, its unsettling to see these kind of actions.
1) No it doesn't. There is no such thing.1) Michael O. dropped because his list autoloses to mine
2) When my opponent rolled up at range one with his Crack Squadrons, he moved all his PS 4 ships at the same time without doing any actions. When he went to put focuses on them, I denied them all except for the last ship to move, helped a little.
3) Serves him right for that obnoxious guess of 1 on one health Miranda that saved her ass.
4) ...and Luke crew which didn't net him any damage against autothrusters but was cute.
5) this is coming from someone who considers himself a WAAC player.
2) Around here we understand that as something that speeds up a game and allow it all the time. Usually the action is declared as soon as the dials are revealed and the ships start moving. But then we're understanding people and not complete jerks.
3) Sounds like he made the right call to keep her alive. How is playing correctly obnoxious?
4) The condescending tone is really unnecessary on top of everything else.
5) Thank you for clarifying. We really had no idea.
Consider my enthusiasm curbed.2nd Place - Nick L. (Paragoomba Slayer) (3-1 in swiss)
5 x Alpha Squadron Pilots + Autothrusters
Gotta respect that!
Being there, it was unfortunate that a lot of the top players decided to/had to leave after the top 4 was cut and the prizes given out. Wished the TO would've decided to actually have a real final top 4 as it should be. As a person playing in his first year of SCs, its unsettling to see these kind of actions.
Also:
1.) Yes there is such a thing as an autoloss. Also, surprised you aren't using the fact that Autothruster Alphas can beat Dash as proof that Dash isn't broken against Joustwing ships against me. Mike O. actually would agree that his list autoloses to Autothruster Alpha.
2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
3.) It was more a comment on how obnoxious C-3PO is, not shaming him about using C-3PO correctly. When this happened my salinity level started to rise, so when I just one volleyed away his B-Wing and made him even saltier it felt good.
4.) I have 5 Autothruster ships. He had Luke Crewalker on Miranda. He pretty much always rolled 2 hits with it but since I had AT I dodged it everytime/most times. That's why I said that it was cute, it's actually a neat trick and is a good idea, but just didn't work against me. I didn't mean for it to be condescending, but F it, maybe it is. Cower before my 5 red interceptors, turretbaby. Play a real list next time.
5.) K.
I don't think it's a jerk thing to deny missed triggers. I forgot to fire with a higher PS ship before a lower PS one a few days ago at a tournament and my opponent didn't consent to be attacking with it. I didn't get mad, my fault for not paying attention. Why doesn't my opponent just git gud and stop missing opportunities?
Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
That's a tad underhanded and unsportsmanlike there. So you agree upon a rule in the beginning of the game and later on, after it was already agreed upon in the early rounds of the game, you pull a 180 and not allow it? At least be consistent about it.
2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
That's a tad underhanded and unsportsmanlike there. So you agree upon a rule in the beginning of the game and later on, after it was already agreed upon in the early rounds of the game, you pull a 180 and not allow it? At least be consistent about it.
As a TO if the opponent called for a judgement I'd rule it that giving permission earlier it continues to apply implicitly, so the opponent would get their actions that round. Then if they wanna play it their way for the rest of the game, that's fine, but only starting the next round when the opponent knows thye're going to be an a** about it.
2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
This is disturbing. I pity anyone who has to go to this length to feed their "competitive" personality.
You might as well pull down his pants while he's putting down his dials and throw a pie in his face after he loses while you're at it. I mean, its win at all costs! Why stop at tricking a player into believing you are fine with their slightly more casual play until it benefits you to no longer allow it, and go full on for mentally scarring them for life?
Apparently "Stop-Wing" is a thing.
... what on earth?
I take it this wasn't the usual Fortress shenanigans?
No, this was just me trying to make sense of how a win-at-all-costs player was attempting to deny me actions, and a resulting strange TO ruling that caused ships to completely skip their activation altogether. My email to Alex and Frank is quoted below.
Alex emailed me back and said that in the case of a simultaneously revealing multiple dials of same PS ships, the offending player actually CAN be forced to lose his actions (regardless of any verbal declaration), but the reasons for this are not formalized in the rulebook, FAQ, or tournament rules. I.e. they have an internal ruling on this, but John Q Public has no way of knowing about it, and it's technically not official until it is in the rules. This should be addressed in the future.
I came across a rather strange scenario this last weekend that I believe warrants an FAQ or tournament rule clarification. The fundamental issue: I do not believe that the rules state what to do when a dial is revealed out of order.From the Core 2 Rulebook:ACTIVATION PHASEDuring the Activation phase, each ship is activated one at a time, starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill and continuing in ascending order. Each ship resolves the following steps in order: ...It is technically unclear what happens when either of the following happens:
- Multiple dials are revealed simultaneously with the same Pilot Skill
- A higher Pilot Skill dial is revealed before a lower Pilot Skill dial
Here's the background and specific scenario. I was flying my PS2 ships in formation, and executing the same maneuver with all of them. I would verbally declare something like "They are all moving forward 1 and focusing", then flip all my dials and perform the movements. This could technically be construed as not per the above rules which state that each ship is activated one at a time. However for the first several rounds my opponent did not care.Then, on the first round where we would have shots fired, after I executed the first maneuver he interrupted and said "You do not get any actions because it is a missed opportunity." His argument is that when you reveal a dial, you initiate activation for that ship. Therefore, since the previously activated ship did not yet perform an action, it has missed its timing window to perform the action. He quoted this section of the Tournament Rules v4.0.1:Missed OpportunitiesPlayers are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent.Note that under his interpretation of how activation is triggered, the verbal declaration of taking an action is irrelevant. Even if I verbally declare it before executing any maneuvers (i.e. I do not "forget"), the physical act of revealing the next dial allows him the right to deny all actions. I was later informed by another player that he does this every game he can at competitive events in order to gain an advantage in the first round of combat. I later asked him why he did not bring this up in the initial 3 rounds, and his response was "because it did not matter".So here is the conundrum. He is correct in that ships must be activated in order, and therefore dials should be revealed one at a time. Therefore I was not playing by the strictest interpretation of the rules. The natural reaction is to assume that the offending player should be punished, and therefore be denied his actions. However this is purely an emotional response, and cannot be formed into a cohesive logical argument consistent with the rules, game-state, and timing windows (more on that below). The rules do not actually say one way or the other what happens when a dial is revealed out of order. Note that this situation is different than revealing a dial, executing a maneuver, and then revealing a new dial before performing an action on the first ship. That would indeed be a clear case of forgetting to take an action.His initial argument was that the simultaneous dial reveals should be treated as separate sequential dial reveals, and each ship would still execute its maneuver on its dial, but not perform its action. This would result in the following timing of the game-state:
- Dial for ship #1 is revealed, so ship #1 becomes the active ship.
- Dial for ship #2 is revealed, so ship #2 becomes the active ship.
- Dial for ship #3 is revealed, so ship #3 becomes the active ship. Ship #3 executes its maneuver and may perform its action as it is the last ship in the chain and its activation was not interrupted.
- Ship #1 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
- Ship #2 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
The problem is that per the Core2 Rulebook, each ship must be activated one at a time, and cannot be activated more than once. There is a timing window for each stage of activation: 1) reveal dial 2) execute maneuver 3) perform action. Therefore, if a ship has passed it's timing window to perform an action (3), then by definition it must ALSO have passed the timing window of executing its maneuver (2) and revealing its dial (1), because the steps MUST occur in order of 1, 2, 3, even if 3 is optional. The problem is that none of the ships had yet executed their maneuvers. Therefore, using his own interpretation of the rules (revealing a dial immediately activates that ship, short-circuiting any remaining activation steps on a previous ship), the offending ships would not only skip their actions, but they must also skip executing their maneuvers as well.I was attempting this line of reasoning to the Tournament Organizer, to illustrate that the player's argument breaks the fundamental rule that ALL ships MUST execute a maneuver each round. The TO actually agreed with the argument that the ships would lose their opportunity to execute a maneuver, but he did not agree that all ships must execute a maneuver. The TO ruled that my remaining ships could not execute their maneuvers or take actions, so I had one ship execute a maneuver while the others stayed stationary for an entire round.We had entered an alternate universe called "Stop-Wing".As it happened, later in the game my opponent accidentally revealed a dial and executed a maneuver for a PS8 ship before his PS2 and PS4 ships that both still had unrevealed dials. I called the TO over, and the TO ruled that to be consistent with his previous ruling the PS2 and PS4 ships could not maneuver or take actions. "Stop-Wing" resulted again, so in total we had 5 ships during the course of the game that did not move.
I agree with the above poster that by allowing it earlier he essentially set the standard for how it would work and that it was pretty poor sportsmanship to call you on it later.
I also think it's good to clarify the first time you ask whether it is an acceptable practice for the remainder of the game or is just something you do in the opening move.
This is utter bull. Utter utter bull. I'd tell this TO to move to North Korea.
Yes, the FAQ really needs a ruling on what to do on this case. It happens a lot.
Apparently "Stop-Wing" is a thing.
... what on earth?
I take it this wasn't the usual Fortress shenanigans?
No, this was just me trying to make sense of how a win-at-all-costs player was attempting to deny me actions, and a resulting strange TO ruling that caused ships to completely skip their activation altogether. My email to Alex and Frank is quoted below.
Alex emailed me back and said that in the case of a simultaneously revealing multiple dials of same PS ships, the offending player actually CAN be forced to lose his actions (regardless of any verbal declaration), but the reasons for this are not formalized in the rulebook, FAQ, or tournament rules. I.e. they have an internal ruling on this, but John Q Public has no way of knowing about it, and it's technically not official until it is in the rules. This should be addressed in the future.
I came across a rather strange scenario this last weekend that I believe warrants an FAQ or tournament rule clarification. The fundamental issue: I do not believe that the rules state what to do when a dial is revealed out of order.From the Core 2 Rulebook:ACTIVATION PHASEDuring the Activation phase, each ship is activated one at a time, starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill and continuing in ascending order. Each ship resolves the following steps in order: ...It is technically unclear what happens when either of the following happens:
- Multiple dials are revealed simultaneously with the same Pilot Skill
- A higher Pilot Skill dial is revealed before a lower Pilot Skill dial
Here's the background and specific scenario. I was flying my PS2 ships in formation, and executing the same maneuver with all of them. I would verbally declare something like "They are all moving forward 1 and focusing", then flip all my dials and perform the movements. This could technically be construed as not per the above rules which state that each ship is activated one at a time. However for the first several rounds my opponent did not care.Then, on the first round where we would have shots fired, after I executed the first maneuver he interrupted and said "You do not get any actions because it is a missed opportunity." His argument is that when you reveal a dial, you initiate activation for that ship. Therefore, since the previously activated ship did not yet perform an action, it has missed its timing window to perform the action. He quoted this section of the Tournament Rules v4.0.1:Missed OpportunitiesPlayers are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent.Note that under his interpretation of how activation is triggered, the verbal declaration of taking an action is irrelevant. Even if I verbally declare it before executing any maneuvers (i.e. I do not "forget"), the physical act of revealing the next dial allows him the right to deny all actions. I was later informed by another player that he does this every game he can at competitive events in order to gain an advantage in the first round of combat. I later asked him why he did not bring this up in the initial 3 rounds, and his response was "because it did not matter".So here is the conundrum. He is correct in that ships must be activated in order, and therefore dials should be revealed one at a time. Therefore I was not playing by the strictest interpretation of the rules. The natural reaction is to assume that the offending player should be punished, and therefore be denied his actions. However this is purely an emotional response, and cannot be formed into a cohesive logical argument consistent with the rules, game-state, and timing windows (more on that below). The rules do not actually say one way or the other what happens when a dial is revealed out of order. Note that this situation is different than revealing a dial, executing a maneuver, and then revealing a new dial before performing an action on the first ship. That would indeed be a clear case of forgetting to take an action.His initial argument was that the simultaneous dial reveals should be treated as separate sequential dial reveals, and each ship would still execute its maneuver on its dial, but not perform its action. This would result in the following timing of the game-state:
- Dial for ship #1 is revealed, so ship #1 becomes the active ship.
- Dial for ship #2 is revealed, so ship #2 becomes the active ship.
- Dial for ship #3 is revealed, so ship #3 becomes the active ship. Ship #3 executes its maneuver and may perform its action as it is the last ship in the chain and its activation was not interrupted.
- Ship #1 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
- Ship #2 then becomes the active ship for a 2nd time, and it executes its maneuver, but it is not allowed to take an action as it had previously passed its timing window.
The problem is that per the Core2 Rulebook, each ship must be activated one at a time, and cannot be activated more than once. There is a timing window for each stage of activation: 1) reveal dial 2) execute maneuver 3) perform action. Therefore, if a ship has passed it's timing window to perform an action (3), then by definition it must ALSO have passed the timing window of executing its maneuver (2) and revealing its dial (1), because the steps MUST occur in order of 1, 2, 3, even if 3 is optional. The problem is that none of the ships had yet executed their maneuvers. Therefore, using his own interpretation of the rules (revealing a dial immediately activates that ship, short-circuiting any remaining activation steps on a previous ship), the offending ships would not only skip their actions, but they must also skip executing their maneuvers as well.I was attempting this line of reasoning to the Tournament Organizer, to illustrate that the player's argument breaks the fundamental rule that ALL ships MUST execute a maneuver each round. The TO actually agreed with the argument that the ships would lose their opportunity to execute a maneuver, but he did not agree that all ships must execute a maneuver. The TO ruled that my remaining ships could not execute their maneuvers or take actions, so I had one ship execute a maneuver while the others stayed stationary for an entire round.We had entered an alternate universe called "Stop-Wing".As it happened, later in the game my opponent accidentally revealed a dial and executed a maneuver for a PS8 ship before his PS2 and PS4 ships that both still had unrevealed dials. I called the TO over, and the TO ruled that to be consistent with his previous ruling the PS2 and PS4 ships could not maneuver or take actions. "Stop-Wing" resulted again, so in total we had 5 ships during the course of the game that did not move.
I agree with the above poster that by allowing it earlier he essentially set the standard for how it would work and that it was pretty poor sportsmanship to call you on it later.
I also think it's good to clarify the first time you ask whether it is an acceptable practice for the remainder of the game or is just something you do in the opening move.
This is utter bull. Utter utter bull. I'd tell this TO to move to North Korea.
Yes, the FAQ really needs a ruling on what to do on this case. It happens a lot.
Free actionless Stop Maneuver? COUNT ME IN!
Not.
2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
That's a tad underhanded and unsportsmanlike there. So you agree upon a rule in the beginning of the game and later on, after it was already agreed upon in the early rounds of the game, you pull a 180 and not allow it? At least be consistent about it.
As a TO I'd rule; "If you want to be like that, go at some other tournament where you can freely behave like an @-hole. Not here."
Note that I do run 3-4 x-wing tournaments per year. This is not hypothetical.
Rules are rules. But behaving in an underhanded and unsportsmanlike manner is also a thing. Apparently.
Just my 2 cts. Peace and fly casual.
Copy paste from the Facebook event seeing as it wasn't listed. Was on the 12th for Crazy Squirrel Game Store, Fresno, CA.
Today, Crazy Squirrel held their Store Championship. We started this morning shortly before 11:00 a.m. with 26 pilots, all competing for the coveted Store Champion plaque and a first round "bye" at the Regionals of their choice. Shortly after 9:00 p.m., Don Headrick was able to deal Nathan Kline his only loss of the day, claiming the title of "Champion." Congratulations Don, and thank you to all the pilots who played like great sportsmen!
Below are the Top 4 lists:
Don Headrick
TIE Advanced - Darth Vader
-TIE/x1
-Advanced Targeting Computer
-Veteran Instincts
-Engine Upgrade
TIE Interceptor - Soontir Fel
-Royal Guard TIE
-Push The Limit
-Autothrusters
-Stealth Device
Lambda Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot
-Emperor Palpatine
-----------------------
Nathan Kline
TIE Fighter - Howlrunner
-Crackshot
-Hull Upgrade
TIE Fighter - Scourge
-Crackshot
TIE Fighter - Black Squadron Pilot
-Crackshot
TIE Fighter - Black Squadron Pilot
-Crackshot
TIE Fighter - Black Squadron Pilot
-Crackshot
TIE Fighter - Black Squadron Pilot
-Crackshot
-----------------------
Garrett Jost
TIE Interceptor - Soontir Fel
-Royal Guard TIE
-Push The Limit
-Autothrusters
-Hull Upgrade
TIE/FO Fighter - Omega Leader
-Juke
-Comm Relay
TIE Fighter - Obsidian Squadron Pilot
TIE Fighter - Obsidian Squadron Pilot
TIE Fighter - Obsidian Squadron Pilot
-----------------------
Kenneth Serpa
TIE Advanced - Darth Vader
-TIE/x1
-Advanced Targeting Computer
-Veteran Instincts
-Engine Upgrade
TIE/FO Fighter - Omega Leader
-Juke
-Comm Relay
-Hull Upgrade
Lambda Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot
-Emperor Palpatine
-Ion Projector
-Ion Cannon
-Fire Control System
Edit: Top table game play can be found on twitch, just look up the game stores name.
Edited by Hujoe BigsThis is disturbing. I pity anyone who has to go to this length to feed their "competitive" personality.2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
You might as well pull down his pants while he's putting down his dials and throw a pie in his face after he loses while you're at it. I mean, its win at all costs! Why stop at tricking a player into believing you are fine with their slightly more casual play until it benefits you to no longer allow it, and go full on for mentally scarring them for life?
2.) Win at all costs. The trick is to let them do it the first turn or two when it's not relevant, and then deny them when they're range 1 of all of my Interceptors.
That's a tad underhanded and unsportsmanlike there. So you agree upon a rule in the beginning of the game and later on, after it was already agreed upon in the early rounds of the game, you pull a 180 and not allow it? At least be consistent about it.
I did not agree upon a rule at the start of the game. As he was moving his ships he did not say something like, "and they'll all focus" and just waited to put the focus tokens down until after he moved them all out of convenience or something. He just moved them and assumed he was allowed to focus with all of them.
One turn I consented to him performing a missed trigger, the next turn I did not. Nothing in the rules says that I have be consistent about allowing missed triggers to be performed, it's up to the opponent to decide.
When I do things that bend the rules out of convenience like moving different PS ships at the same time in a formation because they're not going to bump anyways, I ask my opponent for permission first. My opponent expected leniency at a Store Championship, nope haha.