Heya.

I was just wondering something. Why don't all of the trees get a Force Point in Jedi specializations? I'm sure even the people who specialize to lightsaber combat use the force in successful manner. These dices being so important at most of the force powers, you'd think there would be a better system for it. Especially as people consider someone weak in force who has only a single force dice in their disposal.

I kind of wish there would be some alternative system for the Force Point gains. I don't want getting these Points to be super easy, it'd just be nice to not being forced to jump to other talent tree JUST for the dices.

So any ideas for the alternative ways of earning these?

Likely to encourage you to branch out into more than just combat trees.

I like that this game force you to buy other specialization to increase your force rating. Knowing my players, if all the saber trees were giving Force rating +1, they would have only buy saber trees.

Balance. Some force users are stronger with sabers whilst others are stronger with force powers. Someone strong in both will have to diversify trees a bit.

To encourage you to make a character that's more then just "Dude with magic and glowstick!" If you look at the films and Television, most "Jedi" aren't just cookie cutter clones of one another. They all have personalities, areas they excel in, and personal ways of doing things.

If you want the most generic Jedi build ever though it's there. Saber tree of your choice + Emergent, Exile too if you want to go Master. Saber tree is specific, but the other two are universal, so only 50 XP and you've got all the trees you need, plus the option for generic force talents. Add your glowstick and magic powers and you be a pretty generic Jedi....

I like that this game force you to buy other specialization to increase your force rating. Knowing my players, if all the saber trees were giving Force rating +1, they would have only buy saber trees.

Balance. Some force users are stronger with sabers whilst others are stronger with force powers. Someone strong in both will have to diversify trees a bit.

Likely to encourage you to branch out into more than just combat trees.

All of these are very good and correct (IMO) answers. If you need an in-game response, that's simple to:

Lightsaber styles focus only on passive use of the Force with precognition (ability to Reflect/Parry) and enhancing physical abilities. The only form that specifically invokes the Force in a direct manner is Niman with it's Draw Closer and Force Assault abilities. Which is solid reason why Niman is the only form with the Force Rating talent.

Give a listen to Episode 36 of the Order 66 Podcast. Sam Stewart discusses the reasoning in it. Along with a lot of the decision making for the game.

You will also notice those with 2 Force Rating do not have Dedication.

Your game, your rules. Ask your GM if you can take a Force Rating increase instead of a characteristic boost when you buy Dedication from a Lightsaber combat talent tree. The worst they can say is no.

Well, they could say something rude about your mother I suppose, but that's a different problem.

Thank you for responses guys.

For note, I wasn't planning on making a one note guy who only uses saber or force. But if the force usage is so tied to the trees, why can we advance our learning in the force outside the trees then? I just feel having that one die only while you might have a mastery over many force abilties is just a bit silly. Say you have focused on the saber tree and then topped few force powers... and you STILL have only one dice. Seems a bit amiss imo. How can you call yourself to have mastery of a tree, when you have 40% propability for it to go **** up (or having to rely on your emotions to do it).

I suppose it is interesting in character point of view that he/she has all this power, but it's not reliable to use them.

Your game, your rules. Ask your GM if you can take a Force Rating increase instead of a characteristic boost when you buy Dedication from a Lightsaber combat talent tree. The worst they can say is no.

Well, they could say something rude about your mother I suppose, but that's a different problem.

That's not a bad idea to be fair. I'd rather have one more die on my force rolls than just one more atribute.

Thanks for the idea.

Thank you for responses guys.

For note, I wasn't planning on making a one note guy who only uses saber or force. But if the force usage is so tied to the trees, why can we advance our learning in the force outside the trees then? I just feel having that one die only while you might have a mastery over many force abilties is just a bit silly. Say you have focused on the saber tree and then topped few force powers... and you STILL have only one dice. Seems a bit amiss imo. How can you call yourself to have mastery of a tree, when you have 40% propability for it to go **** up (or having to rely on your emotions to do it).

Not really amiss. The lightsabre tree's aren't about learning how to use the Force, but learning how to use a lightsabre and perhaps making use of the Force through combat. There is no reason why learning how to fight with a lightsabre and a handful of tricks the Force can use to help that should increase your overall knowledge of the Force.

If you're character wants to learn about the Force itself, and thus increase his mastery over it, he's gonna have to do something else other than learn how to use a lightsabre. As such, if you just focus on the sabre trees and top off a few powers then you have no one to blame but yourself. It's not silly because the sabre tree's don't focus on understanding the Force as a whole, but understanding how to fight with a lightsabre. It makes you great with a lightsabre. You want to be great with your Force powers then you need to broaden the depth of your knowledge and buy into the other trees.

Thank you for responses guys.

For note, I wasn't planning on making a one note guy who only uses saber or force. But if the force usage is so tied to the trees, why can we advance our learning in the force outside the trees then? I just feel having that one die only while you might have a mastery over many force abilties is just a bit silly. Say you have focused on the saber tree and then topped few force powers... and you STILL have only one dice. Seems a bit amiss imo. How can you call yourself to have mastery of a tree, when you have 40% propability for it to go **** up (or having to rely on your emotions to do it).

Not really amiss. The lightsabre tree's aren't about learning how to use the Force, but learning how to use a lightsabre and perhaps making use of the Force through combat. There is no reason why learning how to fight with a lightsabre and a handful of tricks the Force can use to help that should increase your overall knowledge of the Force.

If you're character wants to learn about the Force itself, and thus increase his mastery over it, he's gonna have to do something else other than learn how to use a lightsabre. As such, if you just focus on the sabre trees and top off a few powers then you have no one to blame but yourself. It's not silly because the sabre tree's don't focus on understanding the Force as a whole, but understanding how to fight with a lightsabre. It makes you great with a lightsabre. You want to be great with your Force powers then you need to broaden the depth of your knowledge and buy into the other trees.

But that's just it, if he's for example learning a mastery over force powers, unlocking all their secrets, shouldn't they become more accustomed at using them? He is learning something else than lightsaber usage trough it. Because he is investing time and effort at mastering these different aspects of force using.

The way I see it that these trees just add flavors to the character. You don't for example gain skill dies for your lightsaber use purely from mastering a lightsaber style, do you? Then why does the force die rely on these few trees, especially when you learn to use the actual force abilities elsewhere and the trees merely add some extra things?

It doesn't make sense in that aspect. If you get what I'm saying.

But that's just it, if he's for example learning a mastery over force powers, unlocking all their secrets, shouldn't they become more accustomed at using them? He is learning something else than lightsaber usage trough it. Because he is investing time and effort at mastering these different aspects of force using.

The way I see it that these trees just add flavors to the character. You don't for example gain skill dies for your lightsaber use purely from mastering a lightsaber style, do you? Then why does the force die rely on these few trees, especially when you learn to use the actual force abilities elsewhere and the trees merely add some extra things?

It doesn't make sense in that aspect. If you get what I'm saying.

You're confusing what mastery over Force powers means. Picking new abilities and Force powers and maxing out their tree is, yes mastering Force powers. But that doesn't mean you have more raw talent to make use of those powers. You only get better, get stronger at using Force powers by picking up the Force bonus. Those aren't offered in the combat trees because A. they want you to take more than just combat, and B, those trees don't focus on Force knowledge but on how to use the Force in combat.

Basically what you're asking for is the ability to be better at using Force powers by only focusing on lightsabre combat. But that doesn't fit mechanically nor does it jive all that well with the source material.

If you are truly focusing on mastering the Force, you'd be spending time in the non combat trees. If your only focus is combat trees then you're not really focusing on mastering the Force. You are instead focusing on mastering the lightsabre. And you get plenty of benefits for that. You want to be better at using your powers, then stop focusing on combat.

But that's just it, if he's for example learning a mastery over force powers, unlocking all their secrets, shouldn't they become more accustomed at using them? He is learning something else than lightsaber usage trough it. Because he is investing time and effort at mastering these different aspects of force using.

The way I see it that these trees just add flavors to the character. You don't for example gain skill dies for your lightsaber use purely from mastering a lightsaber style, do you? Then why does the force die rely on these few trees, especially when you learn to use the actual force abilities elsewhere and the trees merely add some extra things?

It doesn't make sense in that aspect. If you get what I'm saying.

You're confusing what mastery over Force powers means. Picking new abilities and Force powers and maxing out their tree is, yes mastering Force powers. But that doesn't mean you have more raw talent to make use of those powers. You only get better, get stronger at using Force powers by picking up the Force bonus. Those aren't offered in the combat trees because A. they want you to take more than just combat, and B, those trees don't focus on Force knowledge but on how to use the Force in combat.

Basically what you're asking for is the ability to be better at using Force powers by only focusing on lightsabre combat. But that doesn't fit mechanically nor does it jive all that well with the source material.

If you are truly focusing on mastering the Force, you'd be spending time in the non combat trees. If your only focus is combat trees then you're not really focusing on mastering the Force. You are instead focusing on mastering the lightsabre. And you get plenty of benefits for that. You want to be better at using your powers, then stop focusing on combat.

If that would be the case, lightsaber attack skill should also be tied to the lightsaber form trees.

And your argument about the trees makes it sound like the force point is pretty much the only alluring thing in those trees. If those other trees don't have anything interesting besides the force point increase in them compaired to the lightsaber trees, they are poorly designed. Those trees should be standing on their own merits, giving interesting options, not just something you go into because you want to get a crucial force die.

Just like you don't go into the lightsaber tree to get more profciency dies for the lightsaber use, but rather something aside to your character just swinging their saber around. And trees that don't have much to do with force using like Aggressor-tree also gives you the FP in it.

If that would be the case, lightsaber attack skill should also be tied to the lightsaber form trees.

Not even remotely the same thing.

And your argument about the trees makes it sound like the force point is pretty much the only alluring thing in those trees.

No not really. That's not the argument I made at all on any level.

Just like you don't go into the lightsaber tree to get more profciency dies for the lightsaber use, but rather something aside to your character just swinging their saber around. And trees that don't have much to do with force using like Aggressor-tree also gives you the FP in it.

The Aggressor does actually deal with using the Force. It teaches a very different view on the Force. Each of the non combat trees all focus on a particular outlook and method for mastering the Force. So yes, even the Aggressor gives you a FP because even the Aggressor teaches you how to use the Force.With some very ..... unique consequences.

In this case, the reasoning is purely mechanical.

From what others have said on these boards, during the alpha testing, testers found that characters who focused on both Lightsabers and Force powers were overpowered compared to those who focused on other trees and Force powers. They were skilled with a lightsaber (a very strong weapon, already) and could purchase into potent Force powers like move and deal impressive damage.

The balancing factor was to remove FR from those lightsaber trees. Thus the Saber + Force power users were strong in their own right, without being on-par (in terms of Force powers) with those focusing on other aspects + Force powers of equal XP.

Keeping the FR talent in Niman was a measured gamble, and the beta testers found that it wasn't overbalancing. Niman may be the tree most suited for your style of play.

In this case, the reasoning is purely mechanical.

From what others have said on these boards, during the alpha testing, testers found that characters who focused on both Lightsabers and Force powers were overpowered compared to those who focused on other trees and Force powers. They were skilled with a lightsaber (a very strong weapon, already) and could purchase into potent Force powers like move and deal impressive damage.

The balancing factor was to remove FR from those lightsaber trees. Thus the Saber + Force power users were strong in their own right, without being on-par (in terms of Force powers) with those focusing on other aspects + Force powers of equal XP.

Keeping the FR talent in Niman was a measured gamble, and the beta testers found that it wasn't overbalancing. Niman may be the tree most suited for your style of play.

Ah. Well thank you for explonation! So the non-lightsaber trees were "underpowered" a bit. I see. I wonder tho, could they have done something to remedy this? Maybe buff the non-lightsaber trees a bit more? Make them really appealing. But I guess it was just easier to do it like this.

I don't REALLY mind taking other trees. I'm ok with it, but I was just wondering what is the real reason behind this. I was planning on jumping between the specializations as few of them are really interesting to me and help me flesh out my character a bit more.

And yeah, it does fit Niman because it is the "diplomacy tree", after all. For people who don't have the time to hone their saber skills. But it's not something that really "fits" my character. Thanks for the tip at any rate.

In this case, the reasoning is purely mechanical.

From what others have said on these boards, during the alpha testing, testers found that characters who focused on both Lightsabers and Force powers were overpowered compared to those who focused on other trees and Force powers. They were skilled with a lightsaber (a very strong weapon, already) and could purchase into potent Force powers like move and deal impressive damage.

The balancing factor was to remove FR from those lightsaber trees. Thus the Saber + Force power users were strong in their own right, without being on-par (in terms of Force powers) with those focusing on other aspects + Force powers of equal XP.

Keeping the FR talent in Niman was a measured gamble, and the beta testers found that it wasn't overbalancing. Niman may be the tree most suited for your style of play.

Ah. Well thank you for explonation! So the non-lightsaber trees were "underpowered" a bit. I see. I wonder tho, could they have done something to remedy this? Maybe buff the non-lightsaber trees a bit more? Make them really appealing. But I guess it was just easier to do it like this.

I don't REALLY mind taking other trees. I'm ok with it, but I was just wondering what is the real reason behind this. I was planning on jumping between the specializations as few of them are really interesting to me and help me flesh out my character a bit more.

And yeah, it does fit Niman because it is the "diplomacy tree", after all. For people who don't have the time to hone their saber skills. But it's not something that really "fits" my character. Thanks for the tip at any rate.

They did do something to remedy it. They brought the over powered lightsaber trees down by raking the force rating talent out of them. Part of the balancing factor for force users in this game is that being a powerful force user is expensive XP wise. Remember they are also balancing these with non force users too.

In this case, the reasoning is purely mechanical.

From what others have said on these boards, during the alpha testing, testers found that characters who focused on both Lightsabers and Force powers were overpowered compared to those who focused on other trees and Force powers. They were skilled with a lightsaber (a very strong weapon, already) and could purchase into potent Force powers like move and deal impressive damage.

The balancing factor was to remove FR from those lightsaber trees. Thus the Saber + Force power users were strong in their own right, without being on-par (in terms of Force powers) with those focusing on other aspects + Force powers of equal XP.

Keeping the FR talent in Niman was a measured gamble, and the beta testers found that it wasn't overbalancing. Niman may be the tree most suited for your style of play.

Ah. Well thank you for explonation! So the non-lightsaber trees were "underpowered" a bit. I see. I wonder tho, could they have done something to remedy this? Maybe buff the non-lightsaber trees a bit more? Make them really appealing. But I guess it was just easier to do it like this.

I don't REALLY mind taking other trees. I'm ok with it, but I was just wondering what is the real reason behind this. I was planning on jumping between the specializations as few of them are really interesting to me and help me flesh out my character a bit more.

And yeah, it does fit Niman because it is the "diplomacy tree", after all. For people who don't have the time to hone their saber skills. But it's not something that really "fits" my character. Thanks for the tip at any rate.

They did do something to remedy it. They brought the over powered lightsaber trees down by raking the force rating talent out of them. Part of the balancing factor for force users in this game is that being a powerful force user is expensive XP wise. Remember they are also balancing these with non force users too.

Believe it or not, I kinda like that idea. That it takes time to become really good with force, it fits the game. But at the same time when I was planning ahead with my character, I was just puzzled why my character's tree doesn't have the Force Point talent, and then noticed none of the lightsaber trees have it. I figured to come here to ask about it.

I really wanted to hear the MECHANICAL reason for it. WHY it'd designed like this. Good thing I got my answer. I was considering some alternative in house rule for this for a few days. But then I figured to go with this instead. As I said before: I like the idea. And it fits the character I'm playing more that I think about it.

Any ways! I really like the game. Thanks for the replies guys.

Also the Niman lightsaber form does have Force rating but you have to work at it to get to it.

Also the Niman lightsaber form does have Force rating but you have to work at it to get to it.

Yeah kaosoe mentioned this as well.

Just doesn't fit the character arc of my force user... atleast yet!

I generally start my characters with 2 trees a force and a lightsaber one.

If that would be the case, lightsaber attack skill should also be tied to the lightsaber form trees.

Not even remotely the same thing.

And lightsaber skill essentially IS tied to the form trees - they get the Lightsaber skill on their specialization lists (the others don't) and have an assortment of talents related to using it (the others don't, save for the occasional indirect assist).

With the exception of Niman Disciple, if you're pursuing one of those trees then you're focusing on learning how to fight with a Lightsaber, not on improving your skill with the Force.

If that would be the case, lightsaber attack skill should also be tied to the lightsaber form trees.

Not even remotely the same thing.

And lightsaber skill essentially IS tied to the form trees - they get the Lightsaber skill on their specialization lists (the others don't) and have an assortment of talents related to using it (the others don't, save for the occasional indirect assist).

With the exception of Niman Disciple, if you're pursuing one of those trees then you're focusing on learning how to fight with a Lightsaber, not on improving your skill with the Force.

Oh yes, you get the skill focus. True!

If that would be the case, lightsaber attack skill should also be tied to the lightsaber form trees.

Not even remotely the same thing.

And lightsaber skill essentially IS tied to the form trees - they get the Lightsaber skill on their specialization lists (the others don't) and have an assortment of talents related to using it (the others don't, save for the occasional indirect assist).

With the exception of Niman Disciple, if you're pursuing one of those trees then you're focusing on learning how to fight with a Lightsaber, not on improving your skill with the Force.

Generally true, but if you are pairing a lightsaber and non-saber tree, some trees keep you on track with Force-power development better than others. And, in the case of Seer, the tree actually gives you a few talents than can come in handy during a saber-fight on top of two force-rating tips. I've found preemptive disengagement combined with force leap, and the force is my ally, work really well. Natural Mystic doesn't hurt if you really need pips to work a Force power into a fight, either. If you pair Seer with Niman, you can push to FR-4 with two trees and have an effective saber monkey to play with.

Only house rule in regards to the force for me is that I begin all Force users that take a Force career with Force rating 2 instead of one. All other characters begin the game with 30 extra starting xp.