I've got a rules questions on the interaction between an item's base qualities and ones added from mods. I looked through the core rules as well as did my best google fu in an attempt to find an answer, but I was unsuccessful.

Let's say I'm using the new Guard Shoto from Keeping the Peace.

It has the item property Deflection 2.

If I replace its crystal with a Lorrdian Gemstone and successfully mod the gemstone with it's "2 Item Quality (Deflection +1) Mods", what happens? The Guard Shoto already had Deflection 2. Because the mod is called "Deflection +1", to me this means that a Guard Shoto would increase its Deflection quality twice (instead gaining Deflection 2 if didn't already possess the quality) resulting in a final quality of Deflection 4. Am I reading that right?

Sounds right.

Yes. The "+" indicates that it will either add or increase the quality, not overwrite it. Compare the overclock setting in the same book.

Yes. The "+" indicates that it will either add or increase the quality, not overwrite it. Compare the overclock setting in the same book.

Awesome. Thanks you.

To build on this, Deflection/Defensive as weapon qualities just simply add to the ranged/melee defense scores, right?

Does dual wielding weapons with the deflection/defensive quality allow for adding those properties across both weapons to the defense values? E.g. if I have two guard shotos with lorradian crystals, would I actually be able to achieve ranged/melee defense 8+ (could be wrong about it being 8, don't immediately have book with me, but I know it can get pretty big)?

As far as I can tell the weapon property does just add to the appropriate defense score, not "gives" a defense score. Or is there some mechanic stating you can only receive bonuses like that from one wielded weapon?

I mean, sure, that is a lot of effort to get to that point, so the PC should be suitably difficult to hit, still, seems overly effective.

Pretty sure when dual-wielding you specify which is your primary and utilize only the qualities granted from that. Defense is tricky, as it doesn't stack, and the defender either defaults to a static source (cover), defaults to the best defensive source, or chooses the source of defense.

Yeah, but again, the Defensive/Deflection weapon properties specifically add to defense, not give a score. The question would be where is this rule that specifies that you must "pick" the primary weapon? I mean, certainly, I'm open to it; defense 8 is ridiculous at any level of play. I'm just wondering if there is any rule precedent on the matter.

I get that with dual wielding, the attacks use a "primary" weapon's properties, but I don't see where that plays in with defending.

Clearly for me in my situation, its going to be more a "run it by the GM" scenario, seeing as one of the other players in our game already pushed for a house rule to allow stacking defense even with static sources (and the GM has tentatively allowed it).

Stacking Defense

Question asked by Braendig :

3 Brawn

Sentinel: Shien Expert

1 Rank Defensive Training

Wearing Armored Robes

Wielding a Riot Shield (Left Hand) and a

Shoto Lightsaber with a fully Modified

Lorridian Gemstone and a

fully Modified Curved Hilt ? And why? How would the various defense s stack?"

Answered by Sam Stewart :

Ranged Defense 2

Melee Defense 3

The modified lightsaber would be the source of the defense , because it has the highest ranged and melee defense s. The shoto lightsaber has no innate defense , but the Llordian Gemstone comes with Defensive 1. Its mods allow you to increase the weapon’s defense . Same goes for the curved hilt, its mods also allow you to increase the weapon’s defense .

All of the other defensive sources are from different items, and do not stack

Does this help?

From here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/

Does this help?

Not really, but only because I don't have my book on me at the moment. I just thought I was -certain- that the Defensive/Deflection weapon properties were worded that they "Increases the wielders melee/ranged defense by the ranks of Deflection/Defensive." Which, as far as I'm aware, is the systems way of giving defense bonuses and working around the static defense value "issue."

What you're quoting seems to indicate that the LS has a "static" defense value, which I was under the impression that it didn't have. I thought that having Defensive/Deflection properties allowed it to modify whatever static melee/ranged defense score the wielder had by the associated ranks of said properties (i.e. a melee defense 0 character wielding a defensive 1 weapon has their 0 defense increased to 1. A melee defense 1 character wielding a defensive 1 weapon has their melee defense increased to 2 total. A melee defense 1 character wielding a defensive 2 weapon has their melee defense increased to 3, etc.).

It also doesn't help that the question involves the use of a shield, which unfortunately I don't recall how their defense bonus is handled. The other talents listed don't really help me too much, as I'm not too concerned about those (yet), and I am fully aware of the manner in which static defense bonuses work in the system, so I likely wouldn't make the same rules mistake.

According to the F&D core, it specifically says that multiple sources do not stack, and you rather default to the best source. So carrying a shield and a saber+Lorrdian or two guard shotos+Lorrdian isn't that different; you are carrying two weapons with Defensive/Deflective qualities, so you'd pick the better. If both are equal, just pick one. So in the above question, there are 4 sources of defense: a talent, armor and two different weapons. The best of these is the lightsaber with the Lorrdian and the curved hilt.

But the odd thing is that the Defensive Training talent says it replaces the Defensive quality of the weapon being used. I wonder if that's an error in printing or an oversight when the question was answered.

On page 213 of the Force and Destiny Core Rule Book: Melee and Ranged Defense.

"multiple sources of defense do not stack."

Even though you have a mod on your saber that has + 1 defense, this only increases the defense on your saber in that hand, it doesn't stack with the shield or saber in your other hand.

You use the item with the best source of defense to get your defense, sadly the shields don't stack with the defense from your worn armor, you have to use the single best source.

You could however have in one hand a saber that gives you +3 defense, and in your other hand a shield that gives you +2 deflect.

Your stats would be:

3 melee defense, 2 ranged defense

Now, there might be a talent that effects your defense that could stack with your weapon's defense.

Such as Forewarning in the Seer's tree that specifically states that it increases nearby allies' defense by the user's force rating.

There's the Imbue Item talent which can increase an armor's melee or ranged defense by 1.

Sixth Sense increases your ranged defense by 1, so stacks with the item you currently use for ranged defense.

*oh, maybe I'm wrong about those talents stacking, I'll have to do research.

Could someone instead please quote the wording of "Defensive" and "Defelction," rather than rules that I clearly have indicated I am aware of? I know multiple sources of defense don't stack. What I'm saying is that I am under the impression that Defensive and Deflection are not -sources- of defense, but rather additive modifiers to defense. I'm saying that (I think) they're worded as giving "Defense +X," not "Defense X." And if I am right in that statement, then I currently see no reason it wouldn't stack across multiple wielded weapons. And certainly I will accept that if I am wrong in my reading (that the properties give "Defense X" rather than "Defense +X"), that indeed it shouldn't stack across weapons.

Telling me that defense sources don't stack isn't the way to refute my claim; I know that and have said I know that. Telling me I am wrong about the Defensive/Deflection quality is the way to refute me.

Also, as a thought experiment, what would happen if a character was wielding one weapon with Defensive 2, and one weapon with Deflection 2 (and no other sources of defense). Would you say they have melee defense 2 and ranged defense 2, or would you say they have to pick a "primary" weapon and only receive that benefit?

Scenario 1 you are dual-wielding 2 sabers:

Saber 1 has no Defensive Quality.

Saber 2 has Defensive 1.

You mod Saber one with a curved hilt and install the Defensive +1 mod.

Your Melee Defense is still 1.

You use the single best source of Melee Defense, and the single best source of Ranged Defense.

The two sources can be the same or different.

Weapon Qualities:

DEFENSIVE (PASSIVE)
Defensive weapons are particularly good at fending off incoming melee attacks. A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating.

DEFLECTION (PASSIVE)
An item with the Deflection quality increases the wearer’s ranged defense by an amount equal to its Deflection rating.

Since different sources of defense don't stack, this means you increase it from 0.

When you mod a weapon with a Defensive + 1 mod, that only increases the Defensive quality on that particular weapon. Just like how Damage + 1 mods on your saber don't increase the damage of the Blaster Pistol in your other hand.

Armor Characteristic

DEFENSE
The armor's defense adds ■ equal to the defense rating directly to the attacker’s dice pool. This reflects the armor’s ability to deflect damage away from the wearer’s body.

It's written a little differently, but the intention of the rules guys was that the defense on armor is general defense rating that effects both range and melee defense. It still doesn't stack. (Directly from Sam Stewart)

If you have a mod on your Saber that says Defensive +1, that only increases the Defensive quality of that saber.

If the saber didn't previously have and Defensive Quality, it becomes Defensive 1.

If the saber already had a Defensive 1 quality, it becomes Defensive 2.

Scenario 1 you are dual-wielding 2 sabers:

Saber 1 has no Defensive Quality.

Saber 2 has Defensive 1.

You mod Saber one with a curved hilt and install the Defensive +1 mod.

Your Melee Defense is still 1.

You put on armor that has Defense 1.

Your Melee Defense is still 1.

Ranged Defense is now 1.

You use the single best source of Melee Defense, and the single best source of Ranged Defense.

The two sources can be the same or different.

You're still going by the mod. Of course the mod is going to say "Defensive +1." That is the language of the system.

I'm saying please just go look at and tell me what the rules for "Defensive" state. I could swear its worded as saying "Increases the wielders melee defense by X" not "gives the wielder melee defense X." At the same time I know I could be wrong, and that if it indeed just gives a melee defense score of X, then I know certainly that my claim is wrong.

I really don't want to sound impatient or rude, but I have been showcasing, front and center the basis for my entire argument here, and just saying "Well gee KommissarK, it say under "Defensive" right here on page x that it gives the user a flat melee defense rating, not an increase to current defense" is all that it would take to make me accept it. Dancing around the issue trying to say that mods work this way, or constantly stating defense scores don't stack isn't the way to do it.

You are correct, as it does, however, going both by how defense is described in the book and the answer from the developers, I think there is a key aspect that answers this: all characters in the game already have an innate defensive value of 0. So a lightsaber with Defensive does modify melee defense by raising the 0 to whatever the rank in Defensive is. So those qualities do raise defense, but a character can only use one source of those modifiers at a time. A character also has two kinds of defense, ranged and melee, and can raise them from 0 in three ways: through sources with a general defense rating, a melee defense rating, and a ranged defense rating.

So when being attacked, you apply the appropriate defense. Melee for melee attacks from one source (such as a shield), Ranged for ranged attacks from a different source (such as armor).

The other source of Defense some people forget is cover! One of the new specializations in Keeping the Peace also increases your friend's soak value while they are behind cover.

and if you keep just checking the bottom post, I wrote the book definitions above for ya in an edit!

You are correct, as it does, however, going both by how defense is described in the book and the answer from the developers, I think there is a key aspect that answers this: all characters in the game already have an innate defensive value of 0. So a lightsaber with Defensive does modify melee defense by raising the 0 to whatever the rank in Defensive is. So those qualities do raise defense, but a character can only use one source of those modifiers at a time. A character also has two kinds of defense, ranged and melee, and can raise them from 0 in three ways: through sources with a general defense rating, a melee defense rating, and a ranged defense rating.

So when being attacked, you apply the appropriate defense. Melee for melee attacks from one source (such as a shield), Ranged for ranged attacks from a different source (such as armor).

So if I have armoured clothing (defense 1), and a Lightsaber with Defensive 1, you would then agree that the character does indeed have melee defense 2, ranged defense 1 (as in, I am right in saying Defensive increases melee defense by 1, and thus armoured clothing + a single defensive 1 weapon = melee defense 2)?

I'm still not seeing where you're interpreting that there can also only be a single source of additive increases. Using the above example, I expand it and say I have a weapon that also has defensive 1.

Weapon 1 is using its Defensive 1 quality to increase the Melee Defense of my current single source of defense (armoured clothing) to 2. Weapon 2 is using its Defensive 1 quality to increase the Melee Defense of my current best source of melee defense (armoured clothing) to a total of 3.

Seems consistent with the rules limitation of having a single source of defense. Again, where is this limitation on only a single increasing modifier to defense value.

Your lightsaber and armored clothing are 2 different sources... so they don't stack. That's on page 213 of the Force and Destiny rules.

You end up with melee defense 1 and ranged defense 1.

You are reading that your lightsaber has the defensive quality and says increases your character 's melee defense by 1.

But what you are doing in the example you gave is increasing your armor 's melee defense by 1. You are stacking defense from multiple sources.

Each of your items has a defensive rating. You can't add them up.

DEFENSIVE (PASSIVE)

Defensive weapons are particularly good at fending off incoming melee attacks. A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating.

DEFLECTION (PASSIVE)

An item with the Deflection quality increases the wearer’s ranged defense by an amount equal to its Deflection rating.

Since different sources of defense don't stack, this means you increase it from 0.

When you mod a weapon with a Defensive + 1 mod, that only increases the Defensive quality on that particular weapon. Just like how Damage + 1 mods on your saber don't increase the damage of the Blaster Pistol in your other hand.

Armor Characteristic

DEFENSE

The armor's defense adds ■ equal to the defense rating directly to the attacker’s dice pool. This reflects the armor’s ability to deflect damage away from the wearer’s body.

It's written a little differently, but the intention of the rules guys was that the defense on armor is general defense rating that effects both range and melee defense. It still doesn't stack. (Directly from Sam Stewart)

Thank you for showing me I'm at least not insane and did remember how those properties are worded.

That said, I find it crazy to claim Defensive 1 on a weapon and the defense score potentially provided from armour defense wouldn't stack.

If a character has defense 1 (from their armour) and is wielding a Defensive 1 weapon, then clearly, by how it is written, that character should have melee defense 2, ranged defense 1.

As per the quality, it is the -character- gaining the increase to the respective defense stat, not the -weapon-. My lightsaber isn't giving me Melee Defense 2 because it has a Defensive 2 property, my lightsaber is increasing whatever source of Melee Defense I am using by 2.

So again, where is it that multiple additive bonuses to defense don't stack? If you're willing to assent to the idea that a dual wielding a defelction 1 weapon and a defensive 1 weapon, on top of wearing defense 1 armour = ranged defense 2 and melee defense 2, then it really isn't too far to stretch that to see that defensive on 2 weapons nets the full bonus added in.

Your lightsaber and armored clothing are 2 different sources... so they don't stack. That's on page 213 of the Force and Destiny rules.

You end up with melee defense 1 and ranged defense 1.

You are reading that your lightsaber has the defensive quality and says increases your character 's melee defense by 1.

But what you are doing in the example you gave is increasing your armor 's melee defense by 1. You are stacking defense from multiple sources.

Wow, really, so its so nitty-gritty an interpretation that the wielded weapon only increases the "characters" defense, not their "current" defense?

Why wouldn't they just say that the Defensive quality gives the character X melee defense? Seems far less open to interpretation and mistake, and as far as I'm aware, matches their wording elsewhere with other benefits.

Sorry, it just seems to me that Sam Stewart made a mistake when answering that FAQ question, and forgot that Defensive/Deflection are worded as "increasing" instead of "giving," and made what would be an appropriate judgement call under those conditions. The idea that Defensive doesn't modify a characters (non-zero) current "Melee Defense" (which could be coming from armour) is just preposterous.

I don't know why it is written the way it is written, must have seemed like a good idea to them at the time.

Same Stewart answered these questions, it is in the pinned topic at the top of the Edge of the Empire board and should really be here too. A DM can do whatever they want at their table though.

General combat questions, stacking defense -

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/

But Col. Orange already posted this on the last page.

His answer has been that having the defensive quality on a weapon doesn't add to the defense rating on armor. You can read the rules in the book and arrive at the same answer, but it is possible to interpret them in the wrong way, which is why he cleared it up.

Yes, you are only increasing the character's defense. It has to do with how you narrate the defensive reaction.

If I'm carrying a melee weapon with Defensive against an opponent attacking me a melee weapon, the Defensive quality represents me trying to ward him off with my own weapon. Or, if I'm wearing armor, I may simply allow him to try and hit me, trusting my armor to block him completely. The name of the talent that raises ranged defense, Sixth Sense, implies that I would instead be dodging out of the way of a blaster bolt instead. My sixth sense and sword don't make my armor tougher, or my armor and reaction time doesn't make my parrying better, and my sword and armor doesn't make my reaction time better. I can't do all at the same time, so I pick one, and if one is better than the others, I would obviously pick that one.

His answer has been that having the defensive quality on a weapon doesn't add to the defense rating on armor. You can read the rules in the book and arrive at the same answer, but it is possible to interpret them in the wrong way, which is why he cleared it up.

His answer most certainly was not that "d efensive quality on a weapon doesn't add to the defense rating on armor." He made no mention of that potential interaction entirely and instead claimed that the Lightsaber itself, via its Defensive rating, was providing the user with a Melee Defense, not that it was increasing it. From there, his response was purely dealing with having multiple sources of defense.

If he wanted to resolve the issue (if Defensive can increase the Melee Defense provided by armour Defense), he should of identified the point of confusion, and said it didn't work that way. He didn't. Instead he just said that it was a source of defense, and went back to the tried and true rule that there can only be one source of defense. To me this means he that he thought Defensive/Deflection gave flat melee/ranged defense scores, and answered the question accordingly.

Seems to me far more likely that Sam Stewart forgot how Defensive/Deflection are worded, and instead just assumed that they gave a flat rating. Pair that with players often forgetting of the rule that there can only be one source for ranged/melee defense, and realizing that Stewart would respond to the rule question by reiterating that commonly forgotten rule becomes obvious. Understand that game designers can indeed forget fine details about a system, so its not like we should just assume they've rewritten entirely how defense works just because they answered a convoluted question in passing. If he -specifically- spoke on the exact rule interactions of the "Defensive" quality, I'd buy it. But he didn't. He instead just said that the Lightsabaer gave a melee defense score, which is largely counter to the wording of the Defensive quality. He made no attempt to clarify that position (at least in the message we were relayed in that post), and as such I would be slow to trust the ruling.

Think of it like this: he was posed a question regarding defense stacking (and worse, it was based around using -many- sources of defense). The remedy for defense stacking in this system is the rule that you can only have one source of defense. So rather than go through and re-read what all those defense sources did, he took the path of least resistance, pointed out the defense source stacking rule, and determined that the LS would be the highest "source" of defense. I doubt this was some sort of enlightened position of trying to clarify how defense works in its entirety. So to me, the question failed to be good, and the response was half-hearted. The question should be posed on the exact interaction of the Defensive/Deflection's property of a character increasing his ranged/melee defense by the rating and having a flat defense value from another source. And the response should of been more encompassing, rather than just skip to the first "bold texted rule" that applied to the question and come up with an answer from there.

Wow, some folks are seriously overthinking this.

Defensive and Deflection are pretty clear that they increase any existing Melee or Ranged Defense, same with the talents Sixth Sense and Superior Reflexes. That all four of those are noted as "+1 to melee/ranged defense" as opposed to "melee/ranged defense 1" makes that pretty clear.

Armor and Cover both specify that they provide a flat bonus, and thus an armor bonus to ranged defense and a cover bonus to ranged defense won't stack.

So a PC with armored clothing (defense 1) behind cover (ranged defense 1) wielding a lightsaber with 2 ranks of the Defensive Training talent (+2 melee defense) and the Sixth Sense talent (+1 ranged defense) would have a final melee defense of 3 (1 from the armor, +2 from talent) and a ranged defense of 2 (1 from the armor, +1 from talent).

The part where it gets tricky (and thus a dev answer was needed for some) was Defensive and Deflection when it came to wielding two weapons. In this case, Defensive and Deflection as weapon qualities do not stack, as they're from the same source.

The line "multiple defenses do not stack" has been taken entirely out of context, since on page 213 of the FaD core rulebook, it's referring to the three categories of defense, those being 1) General Defense (good against all attacks, like the value provided by armor), 2) Melee Defense (only good vs. close combat attacks), and 3) Ranged Defense (only good vs. ranged combat attacks). The "do not stack" part is followed by an example that a PC with Melee Defense 2 but a General Defense of 1 would only apply the defense of 2 against a close combat attack. In no part of that paragraph does it discuss stacking multiple sources of Melee Defense or Ranged Defense; thus the dev clarification about how Defensive from two separate weapons don't stack.

Admittedly, that section probably could have been worded better, especially since not many folks even bother with the term "General Defense" and instead focus on Melee Defense and Ranged Defense, which can further muddy the issue for people new to this system, particularly as thus far there's not been any attacks that would go against one's "general defense" but instead is affected by either melee defense or ranged defense.

Hi there,

from my point of view the defensive/deflective rating will add to the characters own defense rating which could be increased by talents like Superior Reflexes/ Sixth Sense.