Often times than not, I think the creative-type players, or super casual players are the ones talking down on netlists in general. It conflicts with their play philosophy, so I can understand the friction they experience when playing against a player that don't share those same ideals. I think the players who acknowledges and explores "netlists" are the more competitive players, or even players looking to improve as their driving force. I don't see anything wrong with trying to get better, wanting to learn, or wanting to improve. In anything. Ever.

The list Paul Heaver flew at store champs this weekend is the list I've been messing with for a couple weeks now. I'm sure there will be plenty of netlisting accusations, even from people who've already lost to it a couple times if I take it to upcoming store champs.

I have no problem with someone using a netlist. Heck, my 4 x Tie Bomber list is stolen from Darkhorse (except the latest without Jonus and with EM). I've also talked to a few other guys that have used Xizor to good effect to help finalize what I used on my list.

What I don't like is really more something overall and hard to pin point. Not really just on netlisting, though. People tend to look at Store Championships to find good lists to try. They look at results of Regionals, too. Next comes Nationals and Worlds. There are only so many people who make it to these events and only so many that make it to the top tables. Those lists tend to get borrowed and used often. Soon, though, you don't really see other new lists. There comes up ideas that certain ships aren't "competitive" because no one has flown them at the top 32 tables at Worlds.

Maybe I'd say my complaint has to do with the overall lack of imagination for many tournament goers. Not really a complaint against netlisting, but that seems to be where people turn instead of coming up with their own lists. I won't complain about people using lists they grabbed from online. I will lament the overall same-same of lists I see, though. It's much better than it was, but I still feel like there are good lists out there that aren't being tried.

I read net-lists to:

a) figure out synergies/combos, and

b) see the current metagame.

I don't play often, and X-wing is one of many hobbies for me. Using the 'net as a shortcut is helpful. But, in the end I come up with my own lists based on both my research (the 'net) and my preferences (ex. Firesprays are cool, I like certain characters).

As a tool, net-lists are great. As a crutch, not so much.

I agree with this entirely.

As do I!

I still don't know what droid or upgrade is good on Horn without Googling it.

Corran specifically likes upgrades that allow him to modify multiple attacks in a round, since most of the time he'll be attacking twice every other round. The high Agility of the E-wing mean it gets a lot of value out of additional hit points and/or regeneratio. And like almost all aces, he likes to have lots of ways to reposition using actions, and he likes to do so as late in the round as possible.

List building is about understanding general principles of the game and then applying them to sets of specific game elements. It also helps to have a good memory, a good reference that lists all the game elements, or (preferably) both.

Not everyone is going to be interested in list-building. If you're after a fun beer-and-pretzels game with your friends, I think you should netlist. But I have absolutely seen players who either (1) refuse entirely to netlist because they value being a special snowflake, or (2) will only ever run netlists because they can't or don't want to learn those general principles. And I don't think either of those approaches is healthy.

Beer and pretzel games aren't so bad. But I'd go for option 3.

3) I get the general principles but don't play often enough to simply know the synergies by glancing at the cards. Part of that is due to having to think a little bit about the effects of a pilots ability and another are the amount of cards that I don't have memorized I'd have to pour over to find that one that works. So 3, I get it, I'm still learning but I don't have it all memorized and want to play something reasonably competitive.

P.S.

For me, the fun is in the flying. I don't mind outsourcing the 'nerd work' to those who want to spend hours on end obsessing with the combos.

"Nerd work"? Are you aware of how that sounds?

He could have said Geek Work and several would have said 'yep that's me'

Finally, I don't get the angst about Net Decking. Many have pointed out that even with all of the options we have there are just a few good cards on certain pilots. Get over it people or are you saying that you always play imperial and never ever run Soontir with PTL, RG, Stealth and Auto-thrusters. Oh I'm sure there's a few but not the majority.

And that is the very point I'm making. With all of the upgrades, modifications, EPT, missiles, torpedoes, bombs, etc... there is usually only a few cards that really work very well with certain pilots.

I don't build lists....ever. The reason is that I barely have time to play, let alone spend hours thinking about the game, the meta, the statistically best combos, etc. Frankly, I don't care that much. I just want to go to the LGS or a tourney (on a rare occasion) and put down some ships, fly, and roll some dice....and on more than one of those rare occasions I have won those tournaments.)

For me, the fun is in the flying. I don't mind outsourcing the 'nerd work' to those who want to spend hours on end obsessing with the combos.

"Nerd work"? Are you aware of how that sounds?

Nerds - The other N word! I'm taking it back!

Chris Hardwick defines nerd as someone who “focuses on something to such a granular level and trying to understand it more than any other human being”. He summarized that as saying “It’s not what you like, it’s how you like that thing”.

Be out! Be proud! Be a nerd!

#nerdlife

Not sure if I missed it (apologies if someone has mentioned this before) but no one seems to have mentioned that by flying lists that are predominant in the 'meta' you also learn what those lists can/can't do and are in a better position to beat them when you come up against them. The only reason I fly any Rebel or Scum list is to work out how better to fly against it. I have no interest in spending hours theory-crafting Rebel and Scum builds as I'm primarily an Imperial player. Saying that I've also flown a few Imperial 'net lists', but again so I can gain a better understanding of how they work and so I can exploit that if I ever come up against them.

There are also finite variations... When Crack Shot first hit I sat down and came up with a list that would provide as many copies of it as possible for a powerful 'alpha-strike' type build. My conclusion was a TIE swarm with as many EPT carriers as possible. I settled on five Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot alongside an Obsidian Pilot and an Academy Pilot... Apparently some dude across the channel in France had the same idea and took it to Worlds. Does that make my idea any less relevant? Should I be made to feel bad for using this list now?

The main issue would have that takes a net list is that they play it wrong blaming the list instead of themselves. Then they proceed to get another one and repeat that mistake again.

Flying someone else's list is good for learning what they can do.

I think the Original Posted asked if Net Listing is bad or carries a negative connotation.

I'm going with no, it is not bad. In fact it can be great!

Can it be used poorly or blamed for a player's shortcomings, of course.

Are there people who seem to be upset if they see a list more than once, of course.

Is it possible to enjoy the game playing a list someone else made, absolutely.

Does that take anything away from your skill playing the game, choosing maneuvers, placing asteroids or out playing your opponent, not at all.

Can it be a big help to casual or new players, to be sure a resounding yes!

Actually it can be beneficial and is far more frequently used than people admit or realize.

There's a small voice in me that wants to say, "That's just a dirty 'netlist'." But that voice is just a sore loser and jealous of success.

In reality, I don't really care one way or the other about supposed 'netlisting'. I've seen too many people come up with same or very similar lists on their own to consider anyone playing a top-tier list a 'netlister'. As I've said previously, I don't play netlists just to play them, but if it's something I enjoy I don't feel bad flying it. On the other hand, I prefer flying lists I have some personal attachment to, something of my own design that I'll challenge myself to win with (not handicapping myself with bad lists, mind you, but trying to make certain synergies or combos go the distance).

EDIT: It can also be argued that more people netlisting is a good way to get netlists to stop being netlists. The more they get played, the more they get countered; the more they get countered, the less they get played.

For new players I come across with limited collections, I try my best to give them the tryhardiest list possible.

You know what's worse than a new player slapping Corran and Dash or some other power list down and losing with it? A new player autolosing with a terrible junk list that wastes as many points as possible on missiles, terrible EPTs such as Marksmanship and Expose, and is like a firespray, 2 Z's, and a Y-Wing or some other garbage.

At last year's regionals, my FLGS had 63 players; there were about 15 identical Super Dash + Corran builds, and maybe half again traditional 'Fat Han' builds. Most of them did not make the cut-off, and were distributed throughout the final results table.

Copying "the" lists will only get you so far. You still have to know how to plan, fly, take the right actions etc. More often than not I've seen players bring the lists they see the best players field, and they still lose.

For new players I come across with limited collections, I try my best to give them the tryhardiest list possible.

You know what's worse than a new player slapping Corran and Dash or some other power list down and losing with it? A new player autolosing with a terrible junk list that wastes as many points as possible on missiles, terrible EPTs such as Marksmanship and Expose, and is like a firespray, 2 Z's, and a Y-Wing or some other garbage.

You can tell a kid not to touch the stove a thousand times because it's hot but until they do it anyway when your not looking and learn for themselves it won't sink in.

Every few weeks for the past two years we've had a thread asking if missiles are really that bad, we all tried to ignore the common consensus and all learnt that yes they are the hard way.

People should not skip that learning process as it means they miss something the rest of us have first hand experience for which there's no substitute.

Every few weeks for the past two years we've had a thread asking if missiles are really that bad, we all tried to ignore the common consensus and all learnt that yes they are the hard way.

With respect, while I certainly agree with your wider point about it being important that new players learn as they go, I think there is something wrong in acting as if there are controvertible truths in this game, such as this particular point of yours above.

Yes, ordnance might not be the most competitive thing in the game, but that doesn't automatically make it "bad".

If it weren't as bad as most of us think why have we gotten so many cards based around improving them?

As a one shot weapon they were terrible because you used your action to fire them and were at the mercy of naked dice.

They will be good but I have no reservations about saying they've sucked for three years.

Competitive or casual most agree your gimping yourself by taking ordnance.

For new players I come across with limited collections, I try my best to give them the tryhardiest list possible.

You know what's worse than a new player slapping Corran and Dash or some other power list down and losing with it? A new player autolosing with a terrible junk list that wastes as many points as possible on missiles, terrible EPTs such as Marksmanship and Expose, and is like a firespray, 2 Z's, and a Y-Wing or some other garbage.

I try to get people in at a lower level. For example last time I introduced someone I played 3 Bombers and a Decimator, all with Seismic Charges, Decimator also with Vader. I gave him R2-D2 Luke, a good Jake Farrel and Keyan Farlander and told him to try and burn down the Decimator as fast as possible. His first purchase after the TFA core was Rebel Aces

If it weren't as bad as most of us think why have we gotten so many cards based around improving them?

As a one shot weapon they were terrible because you used your action to fire them and were at the mercy of naked dice.

They will be good but I have no reservations about saying they've sucked for three years.

Competitive or casual most agree your gimping yourself by taking ordnance.

While they will be much better than before, I did take a Jonus Bomber list to my Store Championship back before Extra Munitions. I was the only undefeated going into the Final Four. I lost hard to 3 generic Phantoms, though. Still, if you worked hard and luck didn't cripple you, they could be competitive.

The list Paul Heaver flew at store champs this weekend is the list I've been messing with for a couple weeks now. I'm sure there will be plenty of netlisting accusations, even from people who've already lost to it a couple times if I take it to upcoming store champs.

Same here. I started flying it as wanted to get a feel for how it flies and how to counter it. Now that I've played it a bunch of times I really like the list (and fly it pretty well). I've tried adjusting it but every change I make seems to make the list weaker (like changing Gold+TLT for 2 Bandits).

I'm thinking of bringing it to an upcoming tournament but am afraid of people getting irritated as I'm flying that list. Should I purposely weaken my list just to make my opponents happy and not get accused of 'netlisting'? Or should I just ignore them and fly it.

Ignore it. Whiners gonna whine.

Ignore it. Whiners gonna whine.

Actually it was his worlds list, not his store champs list. But we'll see. Haven't decided yet whether to take it or not.

Not totally sure about the use of the phrase exactly. I'd always heard it talked about in tabletop war games, like Warhammer 40k. As I understood it, it just meant when one person went out of their way to create a mathematically superior list and it worked out, they talked about it online, then a bunch of people just used that exact list to a tee. Then it got popular because it was mathematically sound, and the game devolved into a handful of optimized lists with very little redefinition or experimentation in the meta. So I suppose yeah, that's not something that one says "has a negative connotation" as something that is empirically bad. This game saw what was basically the equivalent of that during the dark days of "Whisper or Fat Han And Nothing Else" and those times are spoken of in hushed voices and no one misses them.

That being said, I seem to be the person who's always doing the thing that everyone else isn't doing. I had to staunchly defend Predator Black Squadrons, TIE Defenders, Fel's Wrath, and a host of other things people argued were "not statistically good". My answer was always "you can't roll .1 evades" or "you can't deal .5 damage" because screw mathwing. (but not mathwingers because they're cool and useful people, they just think differently than I do).

Did you hurt yourself with the self-pat on the back?

Did you hurt yourself with the self-pat on the back?

A little... will you rub it and make it better? 9.9

Not everyone enjoys list building. I happen to love it but for games like netrunner I felt way better with other people's Corp decks.

The meta is such that you can still try hard netlist your way to the top, but now so many more things are viable than the previous phantom/fat turret/dual aggressor meta that I don't really think it's that much of a negative. If someone is flying the Danger Zone list they netlisted against a 6x Crackshot netlist or baby's first Lego snap together Poe + Miranda list, okay. It's only tedious and annoying when it's the same handful of ships.

At last year's regionals, my FLGS had 63 players; there were about 15 identical Super Dash + Corran builds, and maybe half again traditional 'Fat Han' builds. Most of them did not make the cut-off, and were distributed throughout the final results table.

Copying "the" lists will only get you so far. You still have to know how to plan, fly, take the right actions etc. More often than not I've seen players bring the lists they see the best players field, and they still lose.

Well if everyone is running the same list /someone/ has to not make the cut.