Netlisting also aids a whole segment of players, usually between 'average' and 'goid', who are skilled enough to understand a given list, play it well and/or adjust it to fit their needs, but not good enough to design that level of synergy on their own.

I use a different list every week with zero practice and win way more often than I lose, no list featuring TLT I've used has even come close to losing which is why I stopped running them.

Using the same list over and over would bore me silly.

The arguement against net decking has been around since the early days of the interwebs with Magic The Gathering. People have been doing it for so long that complaining about it is at least to me, the same as complaining about kids these days. Looking at lists that have done well is how a meta game is formed. Without that it would be extremely difficult to determine what is or is not working well in the current competitive format. Some will take those lists and craft answers to them and some will take that list as is and run it which is how a meta game develops and consensus within the community forms. The Whisper errata probably wouldn't have occured without net decking because only a few people would have figured out that the phantom was game deforming.

People will always mimic those who are successful. It's a part of life. Getting upset by it is silly.

I completely agree with the OP.

If you are just playing for fun, it's not necessary, but if you want to be competitive in X-Wing and in any other competition, be it sports or miniature games or whatever, you will need to inform yourself what works and what is good! After all Soccer trainers don't invent all their tactics themselves either..,

Sometimes i built competitive lists myself without even looking them up anywhere because of all the experience i collected while playing and on the forum! For example i played Nathan Eide's exact Worlds list on tournaments before i Worlds took place, and i made the list myself with no outside influence.

So being accused of netlisting makes me laugh a little!

I read net-lists to:

a) figure out synergies/combos, and

b) see the current metagame.

I don't play often, and X-wing is one of many hobbies for me. Using the 'net as a shortcut is helpful. But, in the end I come up with my own lists based on both my research (the 'net) and my preferences (ex. Firesprays are cool, I like certain characters).

As a tool, net-lists are great. As a crutch, not so much.

This whole concept is incredibly stupid. I can, at the very least, understand the concept of a player copying a list without the skill or strategy to make it work, and how that might initially be less beneficial for them than if they had worked through the squad building mental exercise themselves. Even worse, a player who constantly cycles through copied lists, always blaming the list and never studying their own mistakes. That said, this whole concept of "I made/posted this list first so no one else can use it because I'm a special snowflake lalalala" is a joke.

In the land of reality, game knowledge is meant to be shared. That player who fumbles with a copied list may eventually start to grasp its fundamental strengths by repeated use. Perhaps they will later alter it to suit their own style or eventually find a new list, or maybe that original list is already ideal. Civilization progresses by building on the discoveries of those who went before us, why should a miniatures game be any different?

Collectively gathering and sharing information is how we grow and improve as a community. It is not a crime to be less skilled or knowledgeable about the game than others. Drop the wannabe elitist BS.

As said above its bad because people copy without understanding why a netlist won...

Come on. This game really is not that complicated. Knowing that Corran Horn with FCS and R2-D2 works with a YT ace isn't ignorant "net listing," it is a very, very simple conclusion that takes minimal experience and five minutes of thought

Whining about net listing is not based on anger about players not understanding simple tactics and strategy, it is based on the whiners not understanding that there really are not a large amount of reasonable choices in many lists. Soontir Fel is a grear example. There are two ways to fly him competetively, with or without stealth device.

That's the sad truth about it. Once you've been playing for a while, you realise that there is more effective ways than others to use a pilot. Soontir is a good exemple, Corran, Vader, Miranda, Dash, etc. It's easy to be accused, or accusing, of netdecking when you've been playing for a while. I want to fly Poe, but Poe is everywhere these days, and there is not a lot of diversity there: VI, Lonewolf or Predator with R2D2 or R5P9, autothrusters is pretty much a given with all the Turrets around. Same goes for Han. He's been everywhere for so long and all flavor that now just showing up with him will raise an eyebrow from the other players.

Thing is, I love to try different lists. And I do, I rarely fly the same list more than 2 times (except in tournaments of course where I'm forced to use the same for 4-6 games), and when I do, there will be slight modification. But should I prevent myself from playing Double IG just because I don't want to be accused of Netdecking. Those 2 ships, with the title, just begs to be played together. I have yet to actually try them. Maybe tonight.

Half the "net-lists" out there are pretty easy to come up with on their own. I had my Dash/Corran list the first time I read the outrider title.

So for players that purely just 'copy lists'...again, it's just disappointing. It's leaving a pretty big part of the game on the table, untried. And at the same time, it means they are never going to be truly competitive players.

You're disappointed that other's players don't care for every aspect of the game as much you do? Do you know that people who net deck have never tried it?

If you win with a netlist then your not winning off your own effort but from the hard work someone else put in designing and testing it, you won without earning it making the win worthless.

Wow that is fairly harsh. I'm pretty sure you don't think so but you make it sound like actual game play, choosing maneuvers and actions have no bearing on the game; only the squad you choose.

Seriously guys. You make it sound offensive if people don't enjoy the same things as you. And I'm thinking you don't really feel that way; do you?

Sure Deck Building / Squad Building is part of the game. But it is a big game and there are a lot of parts to it. All the way from pre-game squad building and asteroid placement to actual play; that even includes bluffing and out thinking (guessing) your opponent, actions and blocking. Ah both the simplicity and depth of a well designed game.. Add to that there are always dice. Random, painful, nasty mean dice who will love you and spurn you from one game to the next and occasionally even taunt you.

But for me I used to like the idea of squad building, it was actually fun. I liked picking ships and building a good mixed Star Wars-ish squad. Putting a few upgrades here and there was fun. But somewhere the game left me behind or I did not keep up, maybe both but most likely me. Deck/Squad Building is now a BIG/HUGE part of the game. People can spend hours and days creating new squads and swapping this upgrade or modification for a different one. Deck/Squad Building now takes far longer than actually playing. And if you don't keep up with the game then what. I still don't know what droid or upgrade is good on Horn without Googling it. Couldn't tell you if Nera should go with xyz or even be on the board. As good as Marksman looked to me it's not worth it compared to whatever that other card is. The Extra Munitions, was that a modification or a missile replacement, oops neither. Munitions Failsafe sounds like an awesome card, nope there's a better one. That thing which reduced the A-Wings points was that a title, nope it was a secondary something? Hang on a have a few hundred cards I know it's here. Not all TIE should use the better engines. Really there are better upgrades, or maybe titles or was it EPT or some or another fix.

It is really a shame that xanderf is disappointed that I've tried and don't like Deck Building. I'm sorry that no matter how well I've played Hobojebus feels my win is worthless if I use the same squad as someone else. But spending hours pouring over cards isn't the game I'm looking for.

I used to like that part (deck building) but now I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed by it. I really would prefer to play a Star Wars fighter miniature game with some good squads and fairly balanced ships.

And I still can if I Net Deck my squads but...

I've never run a netlist (Although the Crackswarm calls to me, it's hardly a shocking list to have show up).

I have, however, had multiple occasions in which lists I've been fooling around with have won Regionals and/or made the cut at Worlds. Three times in the past year they were identical down to the last upgrade card. (Poe + Corran + an A-wing had never quite hit the table because I felt funny about the naked A-wing. More fool me, eh?)

Does that make me a netlister? I don't know. It might look like one, though.

I'm sure it happens to many.

I mean there are some things that just work well together

Duel aggressors for example. It doesn't take the Internet for two experience players to come up with the same list on different sides of the country.

But I'm glad this topic came up.

I have some upcoming tournaments and am on the fence of what to take

One is heavers list.

Now if I show up, people will think I net listed, which is and isn't true

Aside from the upgrades on poe I had toyed with the thought of having poe with two y and a z95.

I arrived at that list after tlt came out with my tarn,stressbot, and 4 Bandits build.

In order to switch out the ion Cannon for a tlt on the ywing I had to take out a z.

Now I'm down to 3 z and 11 pts, so I thought, why not put in another ywing. They are tankier than a z, even two I believe so more z coke out, and again I had pts left over and consider upgrading tarn to poe just because poe is awesome.

At the time I wasn't sure if having the two ywing would be a good trade off for 3 z95, but now I see it works.

Only difference now is I prefer R5-P9 to R2d2 on poe.

That's personal preference.

I guess the thing is I know it works and can do well because someone else did so at a premier event.

However If I show up tomorrow somewhere people will think I just "net listed" Which does kind of sucks, but also if you have the ships to do it, and it works I see no harm.

Look at all the people running the palmobile with fel and Vader. Again that doesn't require the net for people to figure out this is a good list, and will do well.

There is one list I'd like to use and that is the three kwing build.

I played against it on vassal, and at the time it was his third game with the list and I liked what I saw with it.

It looked fun to fly and he did beat me with it.

He didn't win world's with it, but he got far. I wasn't surprised at all. I was hoping he would have won, because I really liked the list.

But regardless of how he did with it, when I faced it, I liked the way it worked and flew. So it is still a list I consider. Not so much because of how it preformed, (but probably does help) but because I flew against it before world's and I really liked it.

I have picked up a second kwing and hopefully a third one of these days

Another net list I enjoy is Poe marinda and the stressbot and again I did not net list this, as I just threw it together, only to see a post a fee days later with multiple people talking about the exact same list.

With certain ships and upgrades that are just all around better than others, it's only natural that a net list will show up in another part of the world without the other players even knowing they "net listed"

Edit

I have tried melding my tarn list with Pauls, taking out the ywing Tlt, and putting in tarn.

While I do love tarn and R7 has paid off definitely in pts in games, I do see why the ywing is a more solid choice.

Doesn't rely on arc and it makes it tough for fel or any ace to try get behind.

Who spends hours making lists? I turn up make a list on yet another squad builder pull out the cards and play in under five minutes.

I'm not a maths person I don't know statistics unless some one else lays them out like mj's excellent work I have no clue.

But intuitively I know what works well together and what doesn't so build lists by instinct and unless the dice go cold it tends to work out just fine.

But intuitively I know what works well together and what doesn't so build lists by instinct and unless the dice go cold it tends to work out just fine.

I wish I had your intuition.

Well that an more game time

I spend many hours making lists

Not all at once.

But I enjoy theory crafting and trying out different things.

I probably have 50 or more lists bookmarked on my phone

I like to put something together and then think about the set up, asteroids, which direction do I want to fly, how do I want to set up my ships.

Then once I start seeing it in my head, I'll start to go over the upgrades, ships and pilots and see if anything should be changed, then it's off to the table, and see how it does and then re-tweak from there

Sure you can put a list together in 5 min if you like, but I enjoy the process.

I make sure when I go somewhere for a game I have a list saved on my phone and ready.

If I don't, well I still have a ton other builds to choose from

I printed out MJ's list, yes actually printed, so I can had them out at an LGS to someone who wants to play.

I hope you ordered more ink 3.0 arrives soon.

Also don't forget that it's jousting values those numbers mean little if people refuse to go head to head with you.

Sneaky underhanded people like me that refuse to trade fire when they can hit you safely from behind.

You can netdeck/netlist all you want, but when a game is balanced correctly it comes down to playstyle and skill to play that deck/squad well. The problem is when the game isn't balanced correctly then anyone can play well with the deck/squad which makes the game stale for those who obey the meta and frustrating for those who don't.

You make it sound like an opponent can't foreshadow and see what it is your intending.

Delete

I hope you ordered more ink 3.0 arrives soon.

Also don't forget that it's jousting values those numbers mean little if people refuse to go head to head with you.

Sneaky underhanded people like me that refuse to trade fire when they can hit you safely from behind.

I think he is meaning the New Player "Quick Start" List... not the Mathwing list...

actually, netlisting is a trap.

it works for games where the game itself is "on rails", where you have very little thinking to do (current 40k as a premiere example - and sorry for stepping on some toes);

you're work is done once the list stands, after that it's mainly throwing dice.

"dominion" for example is another such game; I can tell a beginner which cards to pick, which to drop and he plays on a "competative level" in no time -

the problem is: he has no clue -how and why-

and he can't replicate it once we switch some cards up.

in "on rails" games, many people that think about these games and build their strategies for it sooner or later arrive at "optimal lists" that suit their playstyle, which will be pretty similar to each other -> netlists.

someone who just copies the lists will do fine in the "on rails" games, but fail in almost any other game with that process.

to take 40k / xwing and a simple (I like simple) analogy:

-in 40k, the list is a microwave-meal. it's complete, you just have to unpack and heat it up (and it will taste accordingly).

-in xwing, the list is just that: a list of ingredients; 1 cup of flower, 1 cup of milk, 1 egg, tiny amount of salt and a spoon of sugar if the goal is to be "the sweet kind" (keeping it very simple here ).

now, what to do with these ingredients?!

someone who cooks at least now and then will immediately see what to do with the stuff, as they're used to it. the microwave-people have no clue.

people who experiment in cooking/baking will talk about how to alter the stuff, the process, whatever to come to something different - the microwave-guys/gals will still have no clue.

netbuilding is microwave-cooking. it get's you sated, but you have no clue how you arrived there. you're still unable to cook, lest you try actual cooking sometimes. sure, you will fail now and then, especially in the beginning, but it's the one and only way to get deeper understanding about "cooking".

in xwing, you equally learn from actual practice. the list can be "the killer list, the one to beat them all.." if you don't know how to use it, it will still get you nowhere.

so practice "using", instead of building. building comes naturally once you know how to use your stuff.

..and now I'm hungry again ;-)

I don't NetList, but I have no problem with it. Some people just aren't the creative type. I would rather have a guy run a Paul Heaver list than syke himself up trying to make a list of his own.

netbuilding is microwave-cooking. it get's you sated, but you have no clue how you arrived there. you're still unable to cook, lest you try actual cooking sometimes. sure, you will fail now and then, especially in the beginning, but it's the one and only way to get deeper understanding about "cooking".

My apologies in advance, but this is Bantha Poo-Doo.

I don't build lists....ever. The reason is that I barely have time to play, let alone spend hours thinking about the game, the meta, the statistically best combos, etc. Frankly, I don't care that much. I just want to go to the LGS or a tourney (on a rare occasion) and put down some ships, fly, and roll some dice....and on more than one of those rare occasions I have won those tournaments.)

For me, the fun is in the flying. I don't mind outsourcing the 'nerd work' to those who want to spend hours on end obsessing with the combos.

Just my 2 cents.

This is one area where I like people to play with the cards and ships they have. I know, proxy, proxy, proxy. But if players begin to play from the beginning with the ships and cards they have, you learn how to build a list. Yeah, you're going to look and see what people are saying works and after a while you have a few people you trust. But you take what you see and look at what you have available and work with it.

You grow your abilities to make lists as you grow your collection. But none of that matters too much if you aren't playing a lot... because that's what determines how good you are. Ability to fly and predict your opponent while knowing what the ships and upgrade cards can do at the table. You just don't get that without the seat time...

Another aspect I didn't mention on page two is the amount of tournaments people go to.

In my area it's not easy to get to a tournament.

I made one store championship last year (which I won) and a regional event. That's it.

I'd love to make it to more but it's not cheap traveling off island here and the nearest is 2 hour drive.

I'd love to show up somewhere with a list Noone would expect. Like 4 bombers for example.

But if it's maybe the only tournament I will make in the year, I want to use something that I know for myself that would work

If I had the opportunity to go to a tournament today and another tomorrow and another next week like many others do, I'd be a lot more inclined to try something I normally wouldn't take. Just to test myself see how far I can go with this list

I like to have fun but I do have a competitive side, growing up playing many different sports and competing I kind of have that competitive spirit.

I'll never get mad at an opponent, and I don't play where you forgot to do an action I won't let ya take it (I let whisper recloak at the Regionals though he forgot) but I have gotten frustrated at myself if I play bad.

Usually not the first game, but if I keep doing a dumb mistake ya, I can get hard on myself

One thing I wish I didn't have to be

Yeah, I don't agree with the cooking analogy. I'd rather phrase it as "you can learn how to cook, or you can learn how to make recipes". First learn to cook, then you'll be able to modify some recipes to your state, and much later you'll be able to make your own recipes.

As for the dominion example, it's pretty lousy. Dominion has a pretty high skill ceiling, just telling a player what cards to pick and what not will just make them not completely and utterly suck. Anything from *when* to get certain cards, in what quantity, how to react to your opponent, those can't be conveyed in 2-3 words.