I agree with all the things.

But...

It's a bad thing. The term I mean! Lol, not this. This is not bad. Using a resource to improve your game, or like some said, as a handy tool to get a good list on the go, there is nothing wrong with that.

All I'm sayin' is let's not rewrite the definition of the term to make people feel better! If anything, let's come up with an alternative saying that holds no negative meaning.

How about Netbuilding?

This term implies that the user actually spent a moment working on the list. I need a list for an impromptu Scum only mini tournament but don't have time to playtest my own list, so I come on here and look for a list that seems fun/competitive. I come back afterwards and comment on how the list worked for me. Netbuilding. I just bought 2 Firesprays and have no idea how to run them, so I look online for advice and take part in discussion. Netbuilding!

How bout that?

I agree with all the things.

But...

It's a bad thing. The term I mean! Lol, not this. This is not bad. Using a resource to improve your game, or like some said, as a handy tool to get a good list on the go, there is nothing wrong with that.

All I'm sayin' is let's not rewrite the definition of the term to make people feel better! If anything, let's come up with an alternative saying that holds no negative meaning.

How about Netbuilding?

This term implies that the user actually spent a moment working on the list. I need a list for an impromptu Scum only mini tournament but don't have time to playtest my own list, so I come on here and look for a list that seems fun/competitive. I come back afterwards and comment on how the list worked for me. Netbuilding. I just bought 2 Firesprays and have no idea how to run them, so I look online for advice and take part in discussion. Netbuilding!

How bout that?

Ready to Play™ lists

double post, sorry

I've done it before across various game systems, got no hang up playing against it either. I like facing what is commonly accepted as tier 1.

I've also IMO contributed to the evolution of various lists and decks over the years and likely so have we all. Its part of having a collective hive mind ala the interweb machine. That and gamers tend to arrive at the same conclusions.. "wow soontir fel + palp IS pretty good lolz lolz".

That said I always give extra props to people who innovate and can roll in with something original and handle themselves well with it because those players to me are the true gears of the engine that drives the game.

I personally prefer to brew my own, probably because I enjoy lurking in the tier 2 wasteland by choice plus its a good way to polish your skills. Its actually one of my laments about fixes.. once something becomes 'mainstream' it loses some appeal to me.

Edit- I should clarify that theres not just one type of netdecking. Theres the collective brewing that goes on which I enjoy and theres the other which is looking for most successful. With the latter I do feel like many viable builds risk getting pushed out when too much netdecking goes on and that can put a real damper on any gaming community. A 'healthy' gaming environment should actively work to promote all levels of play.

netbuilding is microwave-cooking. it get's you sated, but you have no clue how you arrived there. you're still unable to cook, lest you try actual cooking sometimes. sure, you will fail now and then, especially in the beginning, but it's the one and only way to get deeper understanding about "cooking".

My apologies in advance, but this is Bantha Poo-Doo.

I don't build lists....ever. The reason is that I barely have time to play, let alone spend hours thinking about the game, the meta, the statistically best combos, etc. Frankly, I don't care that much. I just want to go to the LGS or a tourney (on a rare occasion) and put down some ships, fly, and roll some dice....and on more than one of those rare occasions I have won those tournaments.)

For me, the fun is in the flying. I don't mind outsourcing the 'nerd work' to those who want to spend hours on end obsessing with the combos.

Just my 2 cents.

so you apologize in advance and then -literally- **** onto my quote.. nice manners

onto topic: for you, the fun is flying. so, how does a beginner grasp flying? if you (and I suppose you do..) understand the game, it's perfectly fine to "outsource" the thinkwork. I didn't say otherwise.

the problem for beginners, if I give them a netlist is, that they don't understand what's written down. yeah, I can hand them a stresshog and the concept of using it is not so difficult. I give them 4 tlt-ywings and they do good.

now, I hand them a netlist with 2aces/shuttle, or 4-5 ties + soontir. they crash and burn. horrifically.

because they don't see how to use the list.

maybe you have only supernatural flyboys in your area who can handle such a list, but in the rest of the world, you learn by practice.

my point: once you have practice, you can look into netlists. though you don't have to, as you would build the lists yourself similar by then.

(current 40k as a premiere example - and sorry for stepping on some toes);

When it comes to criticising 40K, never apologise!

Ready to Play™ lists

^ This

As others have said... There's a huge difference between printing out a list and playing with no understanding of how or why it works and seeing a list and making small tweaks or not and playing it because you understand how and why it works.

But for the former, it's unlikely that they'll win a game against a decent player who does understand their list.

Even the mighty Dash/Corran list, needs an understanding of how the list works to properly play it.

Fun is fun. I don't care if your list isn't unique or if you're flying the Worlds list. Don't matter- don't matter. Any negative views towards someone who uses netlists only is just an Ego problem and even THAT don't matter. In competition also- don't matter.

That said- I try to make my lists unique just to throw off everyone. I get a lot of "hmm, that's innteresting"... it bugs the crap outta others in a tournnament and entertains me a lil' bit.

the problem for beginners, if I give them a netlist is, that they don't understand what's written down. yeah, I can hand them a stresshog and the concept of using it is not so difficult. I give them 4 tlt-ywings and they do good.

now, I hand them a netlist with 2aces/shuttle, or 4-5 ties + soontir. they crash and burn. horrifically.

because they don't see how to use the list.

maybe you have only supernatural flyboys in your area who can handle such a list, but in the rest of the world, you learn by practice.

my point: once you have practice, you can look into netlists. though you don't have to, as you would build the lists yourself similar by then.

Yeah, I don't agree with the cooking analogy. I'd rather phrase it as "you can learn how to cook, or you can learn how to make recipes". First learn to cook, then you'll be able to modify some recipes to your state, and much later you'll be able to make your own recipes.

One can be a good cook by simply using receipes from books and a modicum of basic cooking knowledge (like taking the cake out of the oven when it looks done to you, even if it means 10 min more than the receipe) though. It won't win you any Michelin stars, but you can still amaze your friends with food that tastes awesome.

So us X-wing. Netlusting plus some skill won't win you Worlds but they might win you a Store championship or three.

Sometimes people just think of the same thing to. My brother Used a Boba Bossk build, then I saw 2 other peope talking about their Boba Bossk builds here.

I've never liked the negative connotation of "net listing". Sure people will net deck or net list and not understand how things work but that's not the type of person you need to be concerned with in a tournament (or even a casual setting for that matter) because if they aren't understanding things then they are probably just new and inexperienced.

There are a lot of combinations and synergies in this game that are blatantly obvious. Other ones takes some time to flesh out. In a lot of cases a lot of people are putting together some extremely similar lists and then later read about one small tweak that they read about online from a tourney winner. You suddenly have a light bulb moment and think "geez, why didn't I think of that?" and they make that adjustment to their list because now that you've seen it you can't un-see it. That person shouldn't be ridiculed for net decking when they were 95% of the way there already.

And even if it's a straight rip off, who cares? That person will either use it and be good or ok or maybe bad. Heck even for a new player, how are they supposed to fully understand how some of these synergies are even possible without experiencing it? Everyone has to start somewhere. And if someone is net decking and is using something wrong kindly explain how it works. If you approach it in the right way they will often be grateful of the help.

There are a lot of combinations and synergies in this game that are blatantly obvious. Other ones takes some time to flesh out. In a lot of cases a lot of people are putting together some extremely similar lists and then later read about one small tweak that they read about online from a tourney winner. You suddenly have a light bulb moment and think "geez, why didn't I think of that?" and they make that adjustment to their list because now that you've seen it you can't un-see it. That person shouldn't be ridiculed for net decking when they were 95% of the way there already.

^^

the problem for beginners, if I give them a netlist is, that they don't understand what's written down. yeah, I can hand them a stresshog and the concept of using it is not so difficult. I give them 4 tlt-ywings and they do good.

now, I hand them a netlist with 2aces/shuttle, or 4-5 ties + soontir. they crash and burn. horrifically.

because they don't see how to use the list.

maybe you have only supernatural flyboys in your area who can handle such a list, but in the rest of the world, you learn by practice.

my point: once you have practice, you can look into netlists. though you don't have to, as you would build the lists yourself similar by then.

I don't see a strong case against netlisting here. Practicing with existing lists can give you experience on how to use them, as well as the ability to recognize what works and what does not.

Yeah, I don't agree with the cooking analogy. I'd rather phrase it as "you can learn how to cook, or you can learn how to make recipes". First learn to cook, then you'll be able to modify some recipes to your state, and much later you'll be able to make your own recipes.

One can be a good cook by simply using receipes from books and a modicum of basic cooking knowledge (like taking the cake out of the oven when it looks done to you, even if it means 10 min more than the receipe) though. It won't win you any Michelin stars, but you can still amaze your friends with food that tastes awesome.

So us X-wing. Netlusting plus some skill won't win you Worlds but they might win you a Store championship or three.

again, and to be as clear as possible (maybe I wasn't .. all that cooking.. ):

I'm NOT against net-lists.

however I'm strongly against pointing newbies towards them with the promise of "it's a worlds champ list, you take that, you've practically won".

they. will. not.

still, the term "netlisting/building", coming from 40k and like, strongly implies to them that they will. they'll be in for a dose of punishment and humility. that leads to "that's no fun at all.." and quitting. netlists are for those who see how the ingredients work, and they are fine here. they are however, not for beginners. it won't better their game, it just leads to frustration "I have the best list in the world but still lose everytime".

as netbuilding strongly implies it's the easy path for beginners, I have a problem with the concept -here at that point-. not with copying lists in general.

This is an interesting topic. At my store championship 2 weekends ago, I took a list that I saw online. I had just recently got my YV-666 and was looking forward to trying it out. I also knew I could borrow Tactician from my gaming buddies, so it was a list I'd have the pieces for. But I felt guilty and dirty for using a list someone else had created. I felt like it meant I had no creativity and my success wouldn't belong to me. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the whole reason I decided to fly Scum in the first place was because of my love for the bounty hunters. While Zuckuss is my current favorite, Bossk was my first love, so of course I wanted to fly him in his YV-666. But I still felt bad and apologized frequently throughout the tournament for having brought a net-list.

Of course, there are some differences. First, this list isn't widely regarded as powerful and was created to demonstrate that Scum did have aces, so it was still a list in the phase of trying to prove something (much like most of the Scyk lists I fly). That really fit my liking because, like someone else said, as soon as it becomes popular, it loses its cool for me. I flew Aggressors religiously until people started complaining about them. Then I hopped off the large ship bandwagon and started flying Scyks and Z-95s. I loved flying Y-wings until TLT came out. I'll probably keep at the Bossk/Boba Fett list until it becomes the new hotness.

So I think what it comes down to is that I care too much about what other people think about my lists. Some people will be for net-listing. Some people will be against it. At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter what everyone else thinks as long as you are happy with your results. For my part, I enjoy the creative aspect of list-building. I usually get my kicks from coming up with some wacky combo and having it come together at least once. But some times (as is the case with my recent list) sometimes I just want to fly something that looks like a blast to fly.

again, and to be as clear as possible (maybe I wasn't .. all that cooking.. ):

I'm NOT against net-lists.

however I'm strongly against pointing newbies towards them with the promise of "it's a worlds champ list, you take that, you've practically won".

as netbuilding strongly implies it's the easy path for beginners, I have a problem with the concept -here at that point-. not with copying lists in general.

the problem for beginners, if I give them a netlist is, that they don't understand what's written down. yeah, I can hand them a stresshog and the concept of using it is not so difficult. I give them 4 tlt-ywings and they do good.

now, I hand them a netlist with 2aces/shuttle, or 4-5 ties + soontir. they crash and burn. horrifically.

because they don't see how to use the list.

maybe you have only supernatural flyboys in your area who can handle such a list, but in the rest of the world, you learn by practice.

my point: once you have practice, you can look into netlists. though you don't have to, as you would build the lists yourself similar by then.

I don't see a strong case against netlisting here. Practicing with existing lists can give you experience on how to use them, as well as the ability to recognize what works and what does not.

Yeah, I don't agree with the cooking analogy. I'd rather phrase it as "you can learn how to cook, or you can learn how to make recipes". First learn to cook, then you'll be able to modify some recipes to your state, and much later you'll be able to make your own recipes.

One can be a good cook by simply using receipes from books and a modicum of basic cooking knowledge (like taking the cake out of the oven when it looks done to you, even if it means 10 min more than the receipe) though. It won't win you any Michelin stars, but you can still amaze your friends with food that tastes awesome.

So us X-wing. Netlusting plus some skill won't win you Worlds but they might win you a Store championship or three.

again, and to be as clear as possible (maybe I wasn't .. all that cooking.. ):

I'm NOT against net-lists.

however I'm strongly against pointing newbies towards them with the promise of "it's a worlds champ list, you take that, you've practically won".

they. will. not.

still, the term "netlisting/building", coming from 40k and like, strongly implies to them that they will. they'll be in for a dose of punishment and humility. that leads to "that's no fun at all.." and quitting. netlists are for those who see how the ingredients work, and they are fine here. they are however, not for beginners. it won't better their game, it just leads to frustration "I have the best list in the world but still lose everytime".

as netbuilding strongly implies it's the easy path for beginners, I have a problem with the concept -here at that point-. not with copying lists in general.

And I must disagree. I think if anyone is giving a newbie a list and saying "you'll auto-win", that person is a moron and should be tossed into the nearest Sarlaac pit.

I think that, given the size of the card pool and variations on ships / pilot abilities, you almost HAVE to give a newbie a decent list and help them learn to fly it. To ask someone to build a list via trial and error -- THAT is the path to frustration, anger, hate, selling all your crap on eBay..you know, the Dark Side..

again, and to be as clear as possible (maybe I wasn't .. all that cooking.. ):

I'm NOT against net-lists.

however I'm strongly against pointing newbies towards them with the promise of "it's a worlds champ list, you take that, you've practically won".

Maybe you've come across that attitude somewhere, but I never saw it, and I don't think it is being defended in this thread. So maybe you're building a case against a view that hardly anyone really holds?

as netbuilding strongly implies it's the easy path for beginners, I have a problem with the concept -here at that point-. not with copying lists in general.

A beginner's guide, being a part of many games, often contain games with premade forces. Nothing wrong with that. In X-Wing you can then progress to Majorjuggler's standard lists and more complex stuff from there. It really doesn't seem essential that a player builds his own lists to improve his play.

*sigh* in circles.. so, once more: problem is that they don't know how to use the tools, with "netlist" offering the sweet promise of victory. maybe the term is unclear, so here:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Netlist

beginners and a netlist - it leads/implies that listbuilding is -the- most important step in xwing. which I think we all agree is not ( do we..?). netlist implies "take this and win", which they will not..

not against lists. but again: using a "netlist", with all the implications it creates.

And I must disagree. I think if anyone is giving a newbie a list and saying "you'll auto-win", that person is a moron and should be tossed into the nearest Sarlaac pit.

I think that, given the size of the card pool and variations on ships / pilot abilities, you almost HAVE to give a newbie a decent list and help them learn to fly it. To ask someone to build a list via trial and error -- THAT is the path to frustration, anger, hate, selling all your crap on eBay..you know, the Dark Side..

here, too: please read that the term netlist implies..

I think we all have a similar standpoint, just that we understand 2 very different things with the term.

unrelated: is there -any- error list (maybe apart from naked hwks only?)? you learn to fly from any list you -actually fly-, don't you?

I'm of the opinion that most people should netlist for a bit. Success requires a blend of list strength and playskill and its really hard to judge either when you don't have a solid reference for the other. A netlist will not make you invincible, but it will let you honestly evaluate your playskill. If you lose, its on you, though I regularly see players unable to accept this. Once you've got an honest view of your own skills, its much easier to start designing your own lists knowing whether its an improvement to the competitive standards or just another idea that doesn't quite make the cut.

There is definitely a general dislike for people that run lists or play ships that A) Have been known to win events B) Are popular discussion on the forums.

This really bugs me.

"Netlist" is definitely a negative term. If someone says "He netlisted that squad", they are implying something negative and mean. Just because a player uses a list that is known to win implies nothing about their character or skill at the game. Even if they dont win events with said list, we probably shouldn't be mean to players!

This term really does create a dislike for wanting to play what others have come up with or had success with. People will purposely avoid playing a common list just for the FEAR of being thought of as a "netlister".

We X Wingers tend to give more credit to people who come up with their own lists AND do well with them, which is all fine with me, praise the theory crafters and good on-the-table players alike. After all, a large part of the skill of this game is realizing what is good and what isn't (or what is good against what, and what is bad against what).

However, we shouldn't hold anything against players that are running the same lists someone else made and did well with.

Many times, if you theory craft hard enough, you'll come up with the same list for the same reasons, someone just got around to it first, which isn't a big deal. Or after lots of play-testing, you might realize that List A really is that much better at what it does, so for that style of list, why would you play anything else?

We shouldn't be afraid to play with something just because we are afraid someone will call you a "netlister".

As Casual Flyers, we should all make an effort to turn this astigmatism around as best as we can. We want this competitive scene thriving. We want people to play what they want for whatever reason they want. At the end of the day, when you win an event, you wont care how you chose the list that got you there. You'll just feel great that you won. It is only the "after-the-fact" naysayers that will unjustly try to belittle your accomplishment. We should all do our best to minimize this negative influence.

We are, after all, all humans, even if we are hidden behind our internet anonymity.

Also, in other internet communities and games, please don't call people "noobs", that term is way more hurtful than any one who spouts it (at literal new or not as skilled gamers) can imagine. Why the heck do we want to hurt a random stranger's experience with anything?

Rant, done.

If I see a crazy list that looks like a lot of fun, then I'll fly it. Examples of this include the Alabastor Hippo Ballet (pretty much required to try at least once if you get three Lambda shuttles), Six Sigma (again, if you have three Phantoms...), Panic Attack, and Sable's Brobot Fett list.

Of course, all of the above lists are pretty painful for you as the player unless you know how to use them well. Brobot Fett is pretty vulnerable to stress mechanics, Panic Attack requires you to be very good at flying B-Wings and can struggle if you get into a chase, Six Sigma relies on skilled blocking with your generic Phantoms and a fairly low-PS Echo, and the Triple Lambda list uses three Lambdas.

maybe the term is unclear, so here:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Netlist

beginners and a netlist - it leads/implies that listbuilding is -the- most important step in xwing. which I think we all agree is not ( do we..?). netlist implies "take this and win", which they will not..

not against lists. but again: using a "netlist", with all the implications it creates.

Rather, it seems that the relevant part of 'netlisting', sensu 1d4chan, can be glossed as: "Not taking the time to build a list yourself, but just copying whatever looks the most powerful, for any reason, and playing that." Now, I may not like to do that, because I enjoy creating a list. But I don't see a problem with other people doing this. Enough good reasons have been given why it is perfectly acceptable.

1 good thief is as good as 10 good anything. Listbuilding in this game matters. Someone might claim that the more skilled person wins 90% of the games but if that was true people wouldnt spend so much time worying about jousting values or what everyone at the top tables are running.

Just like in anything else, you shouldnt recieve adulation when you dont have original thoughts. Dont get me wrong, the most important thing to the world is winning and it isnt easy no matter where you get your list from.

...and casual butts will blaze a bloody halo across the sky without netlisting

I have no idea what this means.

Come on. This game really is not that complicated. Knowing that Corran Horn with FCS and R2-D2 works with a YT ace isn't ignorant "net listing," it is a very, very simple conclusion that takes minimal experience and five minutes of thought

Says someone with a fair amount of expertise, who's been hanging out on the forum for a year.

Lots of us have lots of system mastery, but that's not necessarily true of the entire player base, nor is it likely to be true of many new players.

I read net-lists to:

a) figure out synergies/combos, and

b) see the current metagame.

I don't play often, and X-wing is one of many hobbies for me. Using the 'net as a shortcut is helpful. But, in the end I come up with my own lists based on both my research (the 'net) and my preferences (ex. Firesprays are cool, I like certain characters).

As a tool, net-lists are great. As a crutch, not so much.

I agree with this entirely.

Deck/Squad Building is now a BIG/HUGE part of the game. People can spend hours and days creating new squads and swapping this upgrade or modification for a different one.

This has always been true.

I still don't know what droid or upgrade is good on Horn without Googling it.

Corran specifically likes upgrades that allow him to modify multiple attacks in a round, since most of the time he'll be attacking twice every other round. The high Agility of the E-wing mean it gets a lot of value out of additional hit points and/or regeneratio. And like almost all aces, he likes to have lots of ways to reposition using actions, and he likes to do so as late in the round as possible.

List building is about understanding general principles of the game and then applying them to sets of specific game elements. It also helps to have a good memory, a good reference that lists all the game elements, or (preferably) both.

Not everyone is going to be interested in list-building. If you're after a fun beer-and-pretzels game with your friends, I think you should netlist. But I have absolutely seen players who either (1) refuse entirely to netlist because they value being a special snowflake, or (2) will only ever run netlists because they can't or don't want to learn those general principles. And I don't think either of those approaches is healthy.

I don't build lists....ever. The reason is that I barely have time to play, let alone spend hours thinking about the game, the meta, the statistically best combos, etc. Frankly, I don't care that much. I just want to go to the LGS or a tourney (on a rare occasion) and put down some ships, fly, and roll some dice....and on more than one of those rare occasions I have won those tournaments.)

For me, the fun is in the flying. I don't mind outsourcing the 'nerd work' to those who want to spend hours on end obsessing with the combos.

"Nerd work"? Are you aware of how that sounds?

***

One thing I don't hear people talking about--although the initial bit about list diversity touches on it--is the risk to the metagame when too many people focus on netlisting. I'm on record from a while back talking about the fact that I think the meta we see over any given timeframe is one of multiple possible stable metagames, because there are always game elements that are underestimated or underused.

So while I don't have any problem with netlisting in your local game for fun, I do think competitive players (or players who want to be competitive) are more likely to be successful if they innovate, they'll often learn more about the game by trying, and succeeding helps keep the game from getting stale.