One of the terms I hate people use is the term "netlist". Most of the time, it carries a very negative connotation and I don't think it's fair to players who utilize this strategy. Before streams, there were replays, before there were replays, there were strategy guides, and before that, there were books. All of this information comes from people who wants to share their success and what "works for them". So is it a bad thing when another player wants to emulate or copy someone else's success? Of course not! That's why one of my biggest pet peeves is when someone belittles another person for netlisting, saying that they're not creative or something else. Being creative has nothing to do with being effective. If creativity is the key to success, then **** every source of teaching material that ever existed. What do you folks think?

I have found that when the term "net-decking" is used in a negative way, it is usually from casual players who don't understand why their poorly built home-brew list was brutally destroyed by something more refined and synergistic.

Mostly. There are some exceptions.

Just ignore their anger and hatred, it only leads to the Dark Side.

The danger of netlisting is not understanding how your list workes. I played against a fat han/triple bandit, who had to be reminded he couldnt predator after han reroll, and kept forgetting that luke existed.

The actual combo, as I found out later, was to predator a'- hit - to either lock in a hit for han reroll or mulligan for Luke's shot. But the kid playing the list did nt understand it.

I wouldn't say that the negative connotation of the term is anything at all like that.

Net-listing refers to a certain type of list building used in wargaming, wherein an inexperienced player chooses a list based on theorycraft written by people who actually know what's up. It implies that the user took no part in the theory, or has very much applicable knowledge of their own.

It is a negative term to be sure, but I would hardly call forum debate net-listing. If I were to go out and buy Paul Heavers 2015 list and i expected to win - in the same manner as Paul - then I could be accused of netlisting.

It refers to the act of mindlessly going onto a webpage, copying someone else's idea, and trying to win not because you have any skill but because you have a "good" list.

We're not doing it right now, don't worry.

I will admit to netlisting. My problem is that there are just too many options to chose from for lists these days and I'm sometimes at a loss as to what to run. If I see a list that I'd like to give a try, I don't see any problem using it. In fact, if I posted a list and people started using it, I'd be flattered.

The commom complaints about netlisting are either that people aren't special snowflakes like themselves and aren't creative, or that it reduces diversity.

The actual danger of netlisting are:

1) you may not understand the purpose of the list or know how to fly it. It might have been a lmeta call for a specific tournament and not suitable for your meta.

2) it does reduce diversity because people are more likely to play what is successful and less likely to experiment.

I don't have a problem with net listing personally

Anyone reading this website would end up netlisting or netdecking in some fashion. We live in the internet age who cares. Its not a negative thing unless you make it one.

If you only decide you will play super optimal builds even in casual play with friends that you saw online then yes that would be negative.

But if you only play that sort of list for real competitive games that's normal.

It's less fun that way, but I get why it's done and don't have a problem with it. For casual events, if you're doing it specifically to win over people who you know are bringing just-for-fun lists, then you're kinda being a jerk. But for competitive play? Go for it. You still have to know how to fly it well

I can see part of the complaint about net-decking, because certainly a component of this game IS the 'list building' aspect. And net-deckers aren't playing that part of the game, they just let someone else do the work for figuring out their list for them, and use whatever someone else has been successful with...without trying to understand that part of the game at all.

That's...disappointing to see.

OTOH, I don't really know any competitive "net deckers". The best players ARE the best because they play A LOT OF GAMES, and have a good sense for what 'works' for the way they think, and what doesn't. So - at worst - they might have something that looks a bit like a 'net deck' to begin with, but *heavily* modified to their own flight style. And the best players are usually the ones that come up with new lists that others end up copying.

So for players that purely just 'copy lists'...again, it's just disappointing. It's leaving a pretty big part of the game on the table, untried. And at the same time, it means they are never going to be truly competitive players.

I do love listbuilding and almost always fly original lists, but sometimes (http://teamcovenant.com/sablegryphon/2014/11/10/victory-is-mined-2014-worlds-list-recap/ , http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/126533/kineticoperator---1-six-sigma#manoeuvres=hide ) a list comes along that is just too interesting not to try out. Some ships also have pretty clear ways to be run optimaly, so there isn't much room for differentiation.

I do believe that, unless you really understand a list, you will never do well with it.

Built my IGs, Furrysprays, XEA XXY lists without netlisting.

in the end came to the same list as half of netlisters

what means one thing: if you know how to build lists and don't worry about early losing you'll build your list yourself.

and casual butts will blaze a bloody halo across the sky without netlisting

I do it all the time, and I find that it's extremely useful if you're new to the game as it shows you what people consider to be good combos so you know what to look out for. After you've learnt to play making lists by yourself is much easier.

It's pretty easy to search for, find and replicate a Championship-winning list. It's much more difficult to understand what made it so successful in the first place.

Now, you can pick up Poe, a couple of TLT Y-Wings and a Bandit Squadron pilot, but if you've no experience of those ships, don't know their dials or don't know how to get the best out of Poe's ability, you're likely going to get merked.

The best and most successful players in the game don't follow the meta, they create the meta.

What I get from the above discussion is that many only want good players to use the top lists. But this game doesn't work that way. Bad players will, and have the right to, play the top lists. I don't see why anyone should have experience to play Paul Heaver's winning list; a bad player will not perform well with either that list or his own, so what?

If someone thinks that copying a list will suddenly make him good, then that is simply a mistake, not something I would particularly condemn. The opposite seems worse - what am I supposed to say to my netlisting opponent, 'You should not play that list, you are not good enough?'

I know from experience that it's sometimes not a lot of fun to play a casual game with a 'casual list' against a very competitive meta-topping list. But that's the game for you - it has potentially very uneven match ups in spite of balanced point totals. (I also find the term 'fun list' to be an odd one - a 'fun list' is often not much fun against certain opponents, so it's the game that is fun, not one list).

Not creating a list yourself takes away some of the fun for me, but if other people prefer it, then I won't object.

The best and most successful players in the game don't follow the meta, they create the meta.

They feel the waves of meta shifting, the currents of powergaming washing another rebel list ashore

As said above its bad because people copy without understanding why a netlist won, my friend used to do it I've beaten every meta build there is with my defenders because I know them in and out but he's just copied someone, he's stopped now and makes his own lists and does much better.

If you win with a netlist then your not winning off your own effort but from the hard work someone else put in designing and testing it, you won without earning it making the win worthless.

So yeah either way it's not the best course to take.

Real winners lead they don't follow.

As said above its bad because people copy without understanding why a netlist won, my friend used to do it I've beaten every meta build there is with my defenders because I know them in and out but he's just copied someone, he's stopped now and makes his own lists and does much better.

If you win with a netlist then your not winning off your own effort but from the hard work someone else put in designing and testing it, you won without earning it making the win worthless.

So yeah either way it's not the best course to take.

Real winners lead they don't follow.

I disagree completely. A win is a win, regardless of how you got there. Indeed a more veteran player will be able to draw from experience and work with many different playersbuilds, but what of the new players? Will you give them 3 Deltas with Ions and expect them to do well?

The best example is a guy in my X-wing group that started out by playing a single list. He played the s**t out of it. It was also quite cheap for him to enter the game this way, he only needed 2 expansions apart from the Core Set, because we lent him cards. What he did was focus on the game and not so much on shortcomings of his list, because the list was well-proven. This made him a very good opponent quite quickly. As the list fell out of favor, he started using a 2nd and a 3rd list and is now branching out.

As said above its bad because people copy without understanding why a netlist won...

Come on. This game really is not that complicated. Knowing that Corran Horn with FCS and R2-D2 works with a YT ace isn't ignorant "net listing," it is a very, very simple conclusion that takes minimal experience and five minutes of thought

Whining about net listing is not based on anger about players not understanding simple tactics and strategy, it is based on the whiners not understanding that there really are not a large amount of reasonable choices in many lists. Soontir Fel is a grear example. There are two ways to fly him competetively, with or without stealth device.

I've never run a netlist (Although the Crackswarm calls to me, it's hardly a shocking list to have show up).

I have, however, had multiple occasions in which lists I've been fooling around with have won Regionals and/or made the cut at Worlds. Three times in the past year they were identical down to the last upgrade card. (Poe + Corran + an A-wing had never quite hit the table because I felt funny about the naked A-wing. More fool me, eh?)

Does that make me a netlister? I don't know. It might look like one, though.

For me and my friends, theme > competition.

Luke and R2D2 are going to roll together.

Netlisting is rather natural if you're aiming to be competitive, but it will only get you so far.

I think taking a proven list and playing it a bunch is a great way to dial in your gameplay and work on your every-game approach without wanting to tweak it every game, which kinda makes it hard to quickly ID what went wrong. There's a lot to be said about just seeing different opponents without changing your own list up all the time.

I see a low of new people change their list drastically every time they lose and it hurts their ability to learn because they have to consider whether it was their list comp or on the table play each game. That being said, maybe it's also not fun for them so I would never criticize somebody for playing the way they want to play.

To be honest i never heard of the term? I do find it funny/Interesting when lists that i seemingly find and come up with on my own are part of the new meta.( I usually am behind the power curve when it comes to using the newest meta smashing list as i dont ever proxy!!)More often than not it just reinforces the fact that people like to win and will congregate around lists that do win or are fun to fly.Besides this is still a game of chance as well and even if you mimic somebodies list to a T you may not do as well? OTOH I like it when unusual lists kick butt...

If you win with a netlist then your not winning off your own effort but from the hard work someone else put in designing and testing it, you won without earning it making the win worthless.

There's a common fallacy with "net-decking" that by using a net-deck, you're stealing someone else's work and you're not worthy. Completely, utterly false.

I don't see where FFG demand royalty payments to the list's designer. I haven't seen any legal proceedings from a list's designer for breach of copyright.

It's pretty sad to see someone's win being belittled because they used a "net-deck".

Just my opinion, Hobo. I'm in a mood, tonight.

If you win with a netlist then your not winning off your own effort but from the hard work someone else put in designing and testing it, you won without earning it making the win worthless.

I couldn't disagree more.

There's a common fallacy with "net-decking" that by using a net-deck, you're stealing someone else's work and you're not worthy. Completely, utterly false.

I don't see where FFG demand royalty payments to the list's designer. I haven't seen any legal proceedings from a list's designer for breach of copyright.

It's pretty sad to see someone's win being belittled because they used a "net-deck".

Just my opinion, Hobo. I'm in a mood, tonight.

For real. If someone doesn't get the practice it doesn't really matter what they build, even quad TLTs take practice(I know this from experience, having played against it).

I don't really have any problems with netlisting in most games, and I feel like complaints against it are especially dumb in X-wing. It's not like there's any great insight that went into creating most netlist. Super-Dash was just stacking maximum possible actions, and making the best Corran out of the leftover points. By and large, these aren't finely tuned engines, they're low-hanging fruit, obvious quality choices. Much more importantly, X-wing is so much more play-dependent than list-dependent, so there's literally no reason I can think of to get salty at someone for netlisting.