I think it's actually important to note the "number of actors working on optimization". I don't think there are that many people that are interested in trying radical new ideas. Most people are comfortable with a certain type of build or at least a certain pilot and really stick to that. I don't see many experienced players that are willing to really go crazy with the types of builds out there. Most stick to tried and true methods.

I'm not asserting you're incorrect, but I'd like to see some sort of evidence that this is true, rather than take it on faith.

I'd have to pull numbers from last year's store champs, but the impression I took away was that there were a lot of non-meta-standard lists brought to store championships, and very few of them did very well. Assuming my memory isn't faulty (quite the assumption), then it seems that either the only players experimenting with list archetypes are poor pilots (an extraordinary claim, IMO), or that there are few to no diamonds in the rough to be found (because they've all been discovered by the community and turned into meta staples).

Note that "one person with a streak" is an aberration by definition. Biophysical is obviously a great Defender pilot, but let's keep in mind that his regional matchups had no Brobots (just a lone IG in swiss), Soontirs, Decimators (or EU turrets at all), until the top 4 loss to KO. Maybe he'd have cleaned house against those kinds of lists too, but the issue is that we don't know, and we shouldn't extrapolate from a single data point. That's why I was asking for the number of occurrences to be included.

I think it's actually important to note the "number of actors working on optimization". I don't think there are that many people that are interested in trying radical new ideas. Most people are comfortable with a certain type of build or at least a certain pilot and really stick to that. I don't see many experienced players that are willing to really go crazy with the types of builds out there. Most stick to tried and true methods.

I'm not asserting you're incorrect, but I'd like to see some sort of evidence that this is true, rather than take it on faith.

I'd have to pull numbers from last year's store champs, but the impression I took away was that there were a lot of non-meta-standard lists brought to store championships, and very few of them did very well. Assuming my memory isn't faulty (quite the assumption), then it seems that either the only players experimenting with list archetypes are poor pilots (an extraordinary claim, IMO), or that there are few to no diamonds in the rough to be found (because they've all been discovered by the community and turned into meta staples).

Note that "one person with a streak" is an aberration by definition. Biophysical is obviously a great Defender pilot, but let's keep in mind that his regional matchups had no Brobots (just a lone IG in swiss), Soontirs, Decimators (or EU turrets at all), until the top 4 loss to KO. Maybe he'd have cleaned house against those kinds of lists too, but the issue is that we don't know, and we shouldn't extrapolate from a single data point. That's why I was asking for the number of occurrences to be included.

Last year's Store Championship isn't this year's, by far. Last year we were stuck in the Wave 5 meta of fat turrets and Phantoms. There wasn't much else that was doing well. I agree that it was pretty stale. Still, I took 4 Tie Bombers to my store's surprisingly small event and was the only undefeated going into Final Four. Oh, that was before Extra Munitions and it was very rough. I lost out to 3 generic Phantoms, which then killed the 2 Decimators for the overall win. In comparison, the meta throttle is wide open.

As for Bio's run with dual Tie Defender....how many other people do you know were actually playing it? If it's one guy that's winning....but no one else is even trying it, how do you know how the list is? Is it one guy with a lucky streak? Or is it a good list, but people are too scared to try it? Or maybe you have to be fly them a certain way that makes them work? I do know there were a few other people that didn't play as often and didn't go to the big events that flew Dual Defenders that were having success with them. Hard to gauge how successful, though. There were a few others playing Xizor w/ 5 Z-95's, as well. A couple in the UK did fantastic and get in the top of some events. I flew mine and went undefeated into the final match for another small event in my area. I lost vs. my first time playing Bro Bots. I didn't see many people elsewise even try a Xizor list. Many people sneered at it...until I beat them with it. The thing is, not many people ever really tried Xizor often enough. I would've made Top 16 at my Regionals, but my last game's dice were so cold even my opponent felt sorry for me.

Last year's Store Championship isn't this year's, by far. Last year we were stuck in the Wave 5 meta of fat turrets and Phantoms. There wasn't much else that was doing well. I agree that it was pretty stale.

...

In comparison, the meta throttle is wide open.

See, I think that contradicts your earlier assertion that the crowd isn't experimenting (otherwise, we'd all just be flying the pheaver world's list, essentially).

Even if you cut out all the bad pilots, and all of the netdeckers, and all of the newbies, etc. I think that there are enough experimenters playing the game that the diamonds will be found.

Should we make a dedicated thread?

Remember, Wave VI didn't hit till about half way through Store Championships last year. So, yes, Store Championships were mainly still in the Wave V meta.

Last year's Store Championship isn't this year's, by far. Last year we were stuck in the Wave 5 meta of fat turrets and Phantoms. There wasn't much else that was doing well. I agree that it was pretty stale.

...

In comparison, the meta throttle is wide open.

See, I think that contradicts your earlier assertion that the crowd isn't experimenting (otherwise, we'd all just be flying the pheaver world's list, essentially).

Even if you cut out all the bad pilots, and all of the netdeckers, and all of the newbies, etc. I think that there are enough experimenters playing the game that the diamonds will be found.

Should we make a dedicated thread?

I don't think it contradicts. I think the playing field is more open than it was last year, but that doesn't mean that it's truly as wide as it could be.

I really don't think that there are enough innovators out there, to be honest. While there is more variety than last year, there are still a fair number of ships and pilots that are not used. While I won't say that they all should, I would say that a portion of those would still make a viable list, but isn't being taken.

Dedicated thread? If you want.

May want to rerun your calculations on the Store Championships. Atlanta had a dash in the top 8

Updated to include the rest of the Atlanta tournament. Thanks again for the heads up.

Dedicated thread? If you want.

This conversation was bound to come up here, feel free to have it in this thread. Seems on-topic enough to me.

Nice work!

It would be nice to include counts for each ship loadout too. It helps separate the flukes from the staples.

Thanks. I agree, just not sure on the best way to do it. I started out with a count of similar builds for each pilot, but it was time consuming/inconsistent/cluttered. After we get another set of store championship results I'm planning on starting a list of common builds for each ship, maybe that would be the best place to put that, e.g:

• Y-Wing
  • Stresshog
    • (Pilot/Upgrade Options)
  • TLT
    • (Pilot/Upgrade Options)
  • Rogue Build A
    • (Pilot/Upgrade Options)
  • Rogue Build B
    • (Pilot/Upgrade Options)

That way multiple appearances would be grouped into a common build, but we still get the list of ships by point as well. Would that be useful, or would finding a way to display common appearances/variations in the bigger lists be more useful? I can always do something like bold pilots/upgrades that only appear once as well.

It really is interesting to see the top cuts laid out by points rather than just raw ship count. Rebels really do have a ton of variety, Imperials dominate the 12~20 and 30~40 range while Scum's best options all appear between 40~50, Y-Wings excluded.

I'll be curious to see how this changes with Wave 8.

I thought it made a few things make sense, like why we don't see firesprays. A cheap firespray is competing with nearly every imperial ace, or whisper/oicunn for an expensive one. Scum don't really have the option to take ~35 point ships, so that only leaves the expensive options that would have to beat out a brobot to see play.

For wave 8, TAPs are 16-31 points, so with omega leader we could potentially see some 4 ship builds at ~25 each, or two TAPS two ace builds. Defenders will be 28 to about 39, which should fit nicely into existing lists. I haven't played much scum, but a jumpmaster could reasonably fit in at about 50 points with two TLTs.

Well someone played every scum ship in world's - even the m3-a. I didn't see a m3-a or firespray in the top half, but there r missing lists when I did my check.

The only worlds lists included were the top 32 swiss finishers. The only ships that weren't brought to worlds at all (that we know of) were the TIE Bomber, TIE Defender, TIE Punisher, and Imperial Firespray.

Adam Nierenberger ran redline at world's I belive he finished 4-4 on the day

The only worlds lists included were the top 32 swiss finishers. The only ships that weren't brought to worlds at all (that we know of) were the TIE Bomber, TIE Defender, TIE Punisher, and Imperial Firespray.

Adam Nierenberger ran redline at world's I belive he finished 4-4 on the day

You're right! It didn't make it into list juggler for whatever reason, but I do remember hearing that. Then it's just the Bomber, Defender, and Firespray left out in the cold, unless anyone knows someone that brought them or took them themselves.

Thank you for compiling all this data! Really helps to know whats possible as store championships come up.

Anyways the best way I feel is if you can get all lists then top half and top quarter - tbh in a game where a random factor (dice) is involved, coupled with player skill - top 8s or what ever cut offs isn't that important. A great player can get sh*tty rolls and a noob player can use a world champ list and scrub out - the best we can get are raw stats. How you choose to present the stats are also important.

Ships/pilots (or combos) that can perform consistantly well are always interesting - especially if they are not particularly popular ones.

Updating with the last two weeks of tournaments that made it into list juggler - Avatar Unlimited, Tucson Games, BEC Store, Sci Fi Factory, and Gerald's Gaming. Here's the ships that were added to the store championship lists.

21, Rebel Alliance, Z-95 Headhunter, Lt. Blount, Deadeye, Ion Pulse Missiles
25, Rebel Alliance, B-Wing, Blue Squadron Pilot, Accuracy Corrector
25, Rebel Alliance, Y-Wing, Gold Squadron Pilot, R2 Astromech, Twin Laser Turret
26, Rebel Alliance, Y-Wing, Gold Squadron Pilot, BTL-A4 Y-Wing, R3-A2, Twin Laser Turret
27, Rebel Alliance, X-Wing, Biggs Darklighter, Wired, R2-D6, Integrated Astromech
28, Rebel Alliance, Y-Wing, Gray Squadron Pilot, BTL-A4 Y-Wing, R3-A2, Twin Laser Turret
29, Rebel Alliance, X-Wing, Biggs Darklighter, R2-D2, Integrated Astromech
32, Rebel Alliance, X-Wing, Wes Janson, Veteran Instincts, BB-8, Integrated Astromech
33, Rebel Alliance, A-Wing, Jake Farrell, Veteran Instincts, Push the Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot, Autothrusters, Proton Rockets
37, Rebel Alliance, Y-Wing, Horton Salm, Veteran Instincts, R2-D6, Engine Upgrade, Twin Laser Turret
37, Rebel Alliance, T-70 X-Wing, Ello Asty, Veteran Instincts, R2-D2, Autothrusters
38, Rebel Alliance, B-Wing, Keyan Farlander, Expose, Fire-Control System, Experimental Interface
42, Rebel Alliance, K-Wing, Miranda Doni, C-3PO, Engine Upgrade, Twin Laser Turret
13, Galactic Empire, TIE Fighter, Obsidian Squadron Pilot
14, Galactic Empire, TIE Fighter, Chaser
14, Galactic Empire, TIE Fighter, Wampa
15, Galactic Empire, TIE Fighter, Black Squadron Pilot, Crack Shot
20, Galactic Empire, TIE Fighter, Howlrunner, Juke
21, Galactic Empire, TIE Advanced, Tempest Squadron Pilot, TIE/x1, Accuracy Corrector
29, Galactic Empire, Lambda-Class Shuttle, Omicron Group Pilot, Emperor Palpatine
29, Galactic Empire, TIE Interceptor, Carnor Jax, Veteran Instincts, Autothrusters
30, Galactic Empire, Tie/fo Fighter, Omega Leader, Push the Limit, Stealth Device, Comm Relay
30, Galactic Empire, TIE Advanced, Juno Eclipse, Veteran Instincts, TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Computer
31, Galactic Empire, TIE Advanced, Darth Vader, Veteran Instincts, TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Computer
36, Galactic Empire, TIE Advanced, Darth Vader, Predator, TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Computer, Stealth Device
39, Galactic Empire, TIE Punisher, Redline, Fire-Control System, Twin Ion Engine Mk. II, Cluster Missiles, Plasma Torpedoes, Extra Munitions
40, Galactic Empire, TIE Advanced, Darth Vader, Predator, TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Computer, Engine Upgrade, Proton Rockets
40, Galactic Empire, TIE Phantom, Echo, Decoy, Agent Kallus, Fire-Control System, Advanced Cloaking Device
57, Galactic Empire, VT-49 Decimator, Captain Oicunn, Intimidation, Emperor Palpatine, Rebel Captive, Anti-Pursuit Lasers
61, Galactic Empire, VT-49 Decimator, Captain Oicunn, Push the Limit, Emperor Palpatine, Ysanne Isard, Engine Upgrade
25, Scum and Villainy, Y-Wing, Syndicate Thug, BTL-A4 Y-Wing, Twin Laser Turret, Unhinged Astromech
27, Scum and Villainy, HWK-290, Torkil Mux, Tactician, Twin Laser Turret
48, Scum and Villainy, Firespray-31, Boba Fett, Veteran Instincts, Tactician, Engine Upgrade, Glitterstim
50, Scum and Villainy, Aggressor, IG-88B, Crack Shot, IG-2000, Fire-Control System, Autothrusters, Heavy Laser Cannon, Glitterstim
50, Scum and Villainy, Aggressor, IG-88A, Crack Shot, IG-2000, Fire-Control System, Autothrusters, Heavy Laser Cannon, Glitterstim

I've updated the Store Championships with every result on ListJuggler from 1/1 to 3/16 (All the data before Wave 8). Honestly, there are so many results may be indistinguishable from noise.

To add the results from Wave 8+, I need to do some development to add all the costs etc, and if I'm going to do that I'd rather just build the functionality into ListJuggler directly and let people filter results and such on their own.