The Shuttle is a cheap support ship, not unlike the HWK but with better dial and firepower. However you can't load it up because it has 2 agility and 4 HP. It's a Z-95 with evade action!

I have all 3 factions, so I (hope I) am not prejudiced. I also think the Inquisitor is probably being very dominant in the future to come.

But some decisions are just strange, like the Punisher not having slam, it seem to pale a lot in comparison.

The key word in your sentence above is "cheap". My gut feeling says "I have a bad feeling about this". I'd say, the attack shuttle is just a lot too cheap for what it brings to the table. Saying it is a Z95 is stupid, sorry, it has 3 red dice, evade and can field turrets and crew (better than missiles, illicit). It will probably almost completely remove the rebels Hwk (apart from maybe Roark) from the equation, as it does support stuff far better than the Hwk.

Complaining that it gets expensive and risky when loading above absolute minimum, that problem have MANY ships, esp Imps and Scum small ships.

And Sabine Attack Shuttle is going to be sick! I guess it is stuff like this which gives die-hard imp players, and not only them, mixed feelings.

(...)

The Shuttle is cheap, but you can't load it up as an ace. Hera can get PS9, and Sabine's ability is very strong. But it will not make it for the sole reason of TLTs. 4 HP 2 evade, no Autothrusters or other defensive boons. That can be 2 Y-Wings shooting and dead!

The HWK dies at 2.5 TLT shots, probably earlier as it flies like a brick.

None of the shuttles abilities suggest it would be a support ship.

That's is the point I am trying to point to

The HWK is support, as it has a sh*tty dial (2nd worst in the game), but it is cheap, and you get the combination turret + crew. On the rebel side only the K-wing had that as well, but being a lot more expensive. So the HWK made a nice support, maybe not so much in the tournament scene, but in casual it is fun.

HWK 4 hull/1shield. PS2 for 16pts, PS4 +special for 19pts, PS6 + special+EPT for 21, PS8 + special+EPT 25pts.

Tada, entry the Attack shuttle:

Totally viable on its own as a fighter, as evade and 3 attack dice and a good dial. Further, Combo turret+crew opens for support.

2hull/2 shields. PS3 +special for 18pts, PS4 + special+EPT for 20pts, PS5 +sick special+EPT for 21pts, PS7 +special+EPT for 22pts.

Why taking a HWk at all now when playing rebels, and wanting to have cheap turret + supporting crew?

Edit: Slight modification in "point" sentence. Added last sentence.

Crew does not make a ship a support ship. The HWKs abilities are unique, good and also something that the Attack Shuttle is never going to give you.

I also have the feeling TLT is wasted on a ship with 3 natural attack dice, but thats an entirely different story.

Rebels have always been the dominant faction just look at any nationals or worlds result except the first year when tie swarm was strong. That is based on pure facts.

However in wave 8 I like the tap better then ghost. But scum have the better two ships and imho they need it because overall they tend to have more broken ships.

I also have the feeling TLT is wasted on a ship with 3 natural attack dice, but thats an entirely different story.

True.

But then I was not so much thinking about TLT, as it is expensive, and it takes a lot of time to kill things.

Looking at the top ten, it sure looks like there are a lot of high HP, turret ships in there. The Polish champ played Scum, true, but his squad was very Rebel. The top table was all seditious craft, and I'm just saying that says alot about the competitive scene. Eide's squad is clearly an ace squad, but it has regen which is currently a predominantly rebel feature.

I play all sides of our game, I just prefer one for the same reasons Vandor does.

My reaction to this thread is probably from my days with Warhammer 40K. Playing against the Rebels as Imperial can feel alot like playing against Space Marines as Eldar, 3rd Edition anyways.

I'm still saying I want to see a player of Heaver's caliber win with an Imp list.

Rebels have always been the dominant faction just look at any nationals or worlds result except the first year when tie swarm was strong. That is based on pure facts.

However in wave 8 I like the tap better then ghost. But scum have the better two ships and imho they need it because overall they tend to have more broken ships.

Are you ******* kidding. Paul heaver would have probably won with any list he took. Stop crying. Are you playing against Paul heaver? no? I play against imperials and scum and still lose. Do you hear me saying they are op?!? No.

heaver is op.

Looking at the top ten, it sure looks like there are a lot of high HP, turret ships in there. The Polish champ played Scum, true, but his squad was very Rebel. The top table was all seditious craft, and I'm just saying that says alot about the competitive scene. Eide's squad is clearly an ace squad, but it has regen which is currently a predominantly rebel feature.

I play all sides of our game, I just prefer one for the same reasons Vandor does.

My reaction to this thread is probably from my days with Warhammer 40K. Playing against the Rebels as Imperial can feel alot like playing against Space Marines as Eldar, 3rd Edition anyways.

I'm still saying I want to see a player of Heaver's caliber win with an Imp list.

its cool you say this because currently eldar can wipe out everything in the game the second they shoot since they have, like, d-flamers and d swords and d guns on infantry and d everything according to my friends who can somehow still afford 40k. space elves give everyone the D.

D.

edit and now FFG is giving the space elfs (imps) the (TIE) D... makes u think.

Looking at the top ten, it sure looks like there are a lot of high HP, turret ships in there. The Polish champ played Scum, true, but his squad was very Rebel . The top table was all seditious craft, and I'm just saying that says alot about the competitive scene. Eide's squad is clearly an ace squad, but it has regen which is currently a predominantly rebel feature.

I play all sides of our game, I just prefer one for the same reasons Vandor does.

My reaction to this thread is probably from my days with Warhammer 40K. Playing against the Rebels as Imperial can feel alot like playing against Space Marines as Eldar, 3rd Edition anyways.

I'm still saying I want to see a player of Heaver's caliber win with an Imp list.

Gosh, you are a lost cause. If you make up your own rules, then it is clear that you win the debate.

The Shuttle is a cheap support ship, not unlike the HWK but with better dial and firepower. However you can't load it up because it has 2 agility and 4 HP. It's a Z-95 with evade action!

I have all 3 factions, so I (hope I) am not prejudiced. I also think the Inquisitor is probably being very dominant in the future to come.

But some decisions are just strange, like the Punisher not having slam, it seem to pale a lot in comparison.

The key word in your sentence above is "cheap". My gut feeling says "I have a bad feeling about this". I'd say, the attack shuttle is just a lot too cheap for what it brings to the table. Saying it is a Z95 is stupid, sorry, it has 3 red dice, evade and can field turrets and crew (better than missiles, illicit). It will probably almost completely remove the rebels Hwk (apart from maybe Roark) from the equation, as it does support stuff far better than the Hwk.

Complaining that it gets expensive and risky when loading above absolute minimum, that problem have MANY ships, esp Imps and Scum small ships.

And Sabine Attack Shuttle is going to be sick! I guess it is stuff like this which gives die-hard imp players, and not only them, mixed feelings.

(...)

The Shuttle is cheap, but you can't load it up as an ace. Hera can get PS9, and Sabine's ability is very strong. But it will not make it for the sole reason of TLTs. 4 HP 2 evade, no Autothrusters or other defensive boons. That can be 2 Y-Wings shooting and dead!

The HWK dies at 2.5 TLT shots, probably earlier as it flies like a brick.

None of the shuttles abilities suggest it would be a support ship.

That's is the point I am trying to point to

The HWK is support, as it has a sh*tty dial (2nd worst in the game), but it is cheap, and you get the combination turret + crew. On the rebel side only the K-wing had that as well, but being a lot more expensive. So the HWK made a nice support, maybe not so much in the tournament scene, but in casual it is fun.

HWK 4 hull/1shield. PS2 for 16pts, PS4 +special for 19pts, PS6 + special+EPT for 21, PS8 + special+EPT 25pts.

Tada, entry the Attack shuttle:

Totally viable on its own as a fighter, as evade and 3 attack dice and a good dial. Further, Combo turret+crew opens for support.

2hull/2 shields. PS3 +special for 18pts, PS4 + special+EPT for 20pts, PS5 +sick special+EPT for 21pts, PS7 +special+EPT for 22pts.

Why taking a HWk at all now when playing rebels, and wanting to have cheap turret + supporting crew?

Edit: Slight modification in "point" sentence. Added last sentence.

Yeah okay, i would really only play the shuttle as a cheap support ship. Zeb or Ezra at the stick and Kanan Jarrus in the back and nothing else. It can bite, but you really don't want to paint yourself a target on the forehead.

Go load it up with Hera or Sabine, Turret, Crew, EPT. YOu will die to TLT, other Turrets and probably Better aces with more PS like Soontir, Vader, basically anyone.

And how cheap is your ship then? kitted out as a fighter? 28-30 points. For a slightly better Z-95 defense with a gigantic KILL ME NOW PLEASE sign. 4 HP, 2 Agility, there is nothing in the game that will stop any half competent enemy to get this big chunk of points that also poses an offensive danger off the table asap!

And how cheap is your ship then? kitted out as a fighter? 28-30 points. For a slightly better Z-95 defense with a gigantic KILL ME NOW PLEASE sign. 4 HP, 2 Agility, there is nothing in the game that will stop any half competent enemy to get this big chunk of points that also poses an offensive danger off the table asap!

Sounds like a Tactician Phantom.

That is an incredibly funny way to put it, Moon. I would have to agree.

Come on 'Death, Unhinged Astro makes the list so insanely different that it's not even remotely related to a Rebel 4 Gold TLT R2 Astro list? If that's the case then I guess I'm just not as hardcore as you.

Edit: Man, I used a similar rhetorical device to end my post. Sorry, 'Death. But, bro/sis/fellow human, come on!

Looking at the top ten, it sure looks like there are a lot of high HP, turret ships in there. The Polish champ played Scum, true, but his squad was very Rebel. The top table was all seditious craft, and I'm just saying that says alot about the competitive scene. Eide's squad is clearly an ace squad, but it has regen which is currently a predominantly rebel feature.

I play all sides of our game, I just prefer one for the same reasons Vandor does.

My reaction to this thread is probably from my days with Warhammer 40K. Playing against the Rebels as Imperial can feel alot like playing against Space Marines as Eldar, 3rd Edition anyways.

I'm still saying I want to see a player of Heaver's caliber win with an Imp list.

I was playing 3rd edition Eldar against pretty much every SM chapter that they had out. And i wiped the table with them forwards and backwards. Star cannons, Reapers, Banshees in Serpents with star cannons, Avatars, Farseers, sometimes in councils, and unkillable Phantom Lords... with more star cannons.

Just saying its in 40 as it is in X-Wing. If you have no idea what the hell you are doing, then you think the opponent is playing an OP faction.

Also, look at The top 32 in worlds, look at nationals and Gencon results. You will see a pretty **** balanced winrate. Scum got a big hit when large ships got nerfed, but so did rebels, as this was the final nail in Han's coffin and a serious blow to Brobots. Empire came out pretty much unscathed as the the VT took a hit, but the shuttle with Palpy does not care for giving up 15 points...

If you can't see that Empire is competitive on every level, be it aces, generics, turrets at 100% with other factions, sorry then you just don't want to see it.

And how cheap is your ship then? kitted out as a fighter? 28-30 points. For a slightly better Z-95 defense with a gigantic KILL ME NOW PLEASE sign. 4 HP, 2 Agility, there is nothing in the game that will stop any half competent enemy to get this big chunk of points that also poses an offensive danger off the table asap!

Sounds like a Tactician Phantom.

Totally agree, but then the Phantom has a cloaking device and can arc-dodge really hard, even after nerf. So this makes its survivability level go over 9000. So it will likely fly merrily around while the little shuttle already is transformed into stardust long ago

That is an incredibly funny way to put it, Moon. I would have to agree.

Come on 'Death, Unhinged Astro makes the list so insanely different that it's not even remotely related to a Rebel 4 Gold TLT R2 Astro list? If that's the case then I guess I'm just not as hardcore as you.

Edit: Man, I used a similar rhetorical device to end my post. Sorry, 'Death. But, bro/sis/fellow human, come on!

Ah but because the list is similar, you say it's a rebel list? Why is the Rebel list not like a Scum list then?

Also, Unhinged>R2 on the TLT ships, because instead of transforming white maneuvers into greens, it transforms reds into greens and makes the ship a lot more unpredictable. If i have to fly TLTs which i don't do often, i would always pick the scum version unless i wanted a Stresshog!

It was nice to not get plasma burns on a 1, but it did suck having your heavy weapons brandished by Guardians.

When people talk about Large ship nerf, are they talking about the barrel roll change or the half HP/half points rule?

What barrel roll change?

When people talk about Large ship nerf, are they talking about the barrel roll change or the half HP/half points rule?

the half points MOV rule

What barrel roll change?

Large ships used to barrel roll the length of the template like small ships do. now they use the width

I've always used the same rule for large ships as small ships and I've been playing X-wing since wave 2. Outrider was the first large ship I believe that could barrel roll and it never could do so as a small ship.

I've always used the same rule for large ships as small ships and I've been playing X-wing since wave 2. Outrider was the first large ship I believe that could barrel roll and it never could do so as a small ship.

Any large ship that could take an EPT could take Expert Handling. They could barrel roll, and take a stress, but even so it was extremely mobile since it could drastically change their range, especially for turreted ships.

I just wish that they would de-nerf the Phantoms...still burning about that.

You are one of few.

In general the game is much more balanced and there are far fewer absolute situations than most people present on the forums, especially some of the louder members. Unless there's a huge mismatch in skill or one list is significantly worse than the other most games will be close.

Also palp aces is love, palp aces is life.

?

Well, I saw an "often used" ship become a "little used" ship. I don't believe there's only a few folks who are not impressed with the change. Not sure how nerfing an expensive ship fixed a balance problem.

A 44 point ship that could reliably solo down all/most of a list that wasn't turrets/built specifically to hard counter it was a huge problem.

You could fly the two named ones for ~86 points and nothing else and what would happen is that you'd autowin against everything that wasn't fat turret based or some funky list that jumped through hoops to hard counter it. It was ******* stupid.

Now you see them represented about as much as any other ship. People seem to think that a ship no longer being in 50% of squads as a negative and, "not often used." Welcome to most of the balanced ships in the game.

There were also a ton of people that used the omniscience of the old decloak rules as a crutch, just like Super Dash players do now. That's where most of the anger over the nerf comes from, from no skill babies who now actually have to think and predict instead of reacting and omnisciently picking the best maneuver possible.

Thanks for the insult...but...

Having only played the Phantom outside of tournaments, I was only used to seeing it played the one way. I didn't realize that it had become a real problem in competitive circuit. I see now how a ship that appeared in over 50% of lists would make tournament play rather boring for folks who played non-phantom lists. I guess I was just miffed that I went out and bought 2 ships and then the rules changed and folks in my area then claimed the ship to be useless.

I don't know...is the Phantom still a good ship? You tell me.

Sorry, didn't know you didn't play the Phantom in tournaments/hadn't seen it in tournaments.

Sometimes it was 50%, usually less. Honestly that's just a rough estimate/number I pulled from my ass but it was super common. It was prevalent enough to force you to play a hard counter to it, or else you simply lost. OR you could just fly a fat turret who didn't care where it moved to and did a great job against most other things.

Eventually you started to see them a little less and less over time because literally everyone was playing a fat turret based squad. But pretty much all Imperial lists were Phantom Deci at the time, it was real irritating.

The problem with it was most apparent when you'd have like 4-5-6 TIEs or 2-3 X-Wings or B-Wings against it and it could just see where you moved to and what decloak you accounted for and have it just omnisciently decloak the other way. Even if you correctly guessed the maneuver often you simply couldn't do anything about the decloak. So turn after turn this thing could just pick wherever it wanted to go and then dump 4-5 dice at you with gunner and FCS.

If you spread out your arcs you ended up getting shots with a TIE or 2 a round as the Phantom could just kill one a turn. It was impossible to bring enough guns on it because of the way it moved.

With the VI, ACD, FCS, Gunner loadout on Whisper you'd end up with 4-5 agility, and a defensive focus, always. So this combined with the broken way it moved at PS 8-9 prevented you from actually damaging it if you did get it in arc.

Basically, if someone didn't land it on an asteroid, didn't face a fat turret or the handful of wonky hard counter lists that could autokill one of these and lose against everything else, they'd win. Every single time. You'd end up with situations where one player would have 5 TIE Fighters and an Alpha Squadron with Targeting Computer against a pre-nerf Phantom and they'd be losing. Losing with 60-70 points against a 44 point one.

It's still a very good ship now. All that's changed is that the decloak happens before everything else in the round, besides for a handful of "Start of the round" effects like Intelligence Agent. So now it's locked into one decloak so it's actually possible to predict now. The Phantom player can no longer just see that his optimum decloak position has been accounted for and decloak the other way anyways. It functions as if the decloak maneuver had its own dial.

Because that's how most other ships in the game work. You set a 1 hard turn on a ship and your opponent accounts for that and sets up a kill zone around it, uh oh. Not just, "*shrug* I'll decloak the other way."

I've always used the same rule for large ships as small ships and I've been playing X-wing since wave 2. Outrider was the first large ship I believe that could barrel roll and it never could do so as a small ship.

I believe playtesting of the 2400 was behind the change. being able to BR without paying 2 points, filling the EPT slot, and taking stress must have been a little too much

And how cheap is your ship then? kitted out as a fighter? 28-30 points. For a slightly better Z-95 defense with a gigantic KILL ME NOW PLEASE sign. 4 HP, 2 Agility, there is nothing in the game that will stop any half competent enemy to get this big chunk of points that also poses an offensive danger off the table asap!

Sounds like a Tactician Phantom.

Totally agree, but then the Phantom has a cloaking device and can arc-dodge really hard, even after nerf. So this makes its survivability level go over 9000. So it will likely fly merrily around while the little shuttle already is transformed into stardust long ago

Still the attack shuttle got blasted an aeon after the support HWK already was turned into star dust

You guys have a weird concept of support. The attack shuttle is a cheap crew platform with great stats for the price. Some of those crew cards (few) have a support effect. The HWK is a ship with supporting abilities, which makes it an entirely different beast. Support is not the combination of crew and turret upgrades.

To be honest I see the attack shuttle as a 20 point Tactician platform that leaves a lot of room for other ships. Jan Ors or any other support crew is just too clunky on it.

I just wish that they would de-nerf the Phantoms...still burning about that.

You are one of few.

In general the game is much more balanced and there are far fewer absolute situations than most people present on the forums, especially some of the louder members. Unless there's a huge mismatch in skill or one list is significantly worse than the other most games will be close.

Also palp aces is love, palp aces is life.

?

Well, I saw an "often used" ship become a "little used" ship. I don't believe there's only a few folks who are not impressed with the change. Not sure how nerfing an expensive ship fixed a balance problem.

A 44 point ship that could reliably solo down all/most of a list that wasn't turrets/built specifically to hard counter it was a huge problem.

You could fly the two named ones for ~86 points and nothing else and what would happen is that you'd autowin against everything that wasn't fat turret based or some funky list that jumped through hoops to hard counter it. It was ******* stupid.

Now you see them represented about as much as any other ship. People seem to think that a ship no longer being in 50% of squads as a negative and, "not often used." Welcome to most of the balanced ships in the game.

There were also a ton of people that used the omniscience of the old decloak rules as a crutch, just like Super Dash players do now. That's where most of the anger over the nerf comes from, from no skill babies who now actually have to think and predict instead of reacting and omnisciently picking the best maneuver possible.

Thanks for the insult...but...

Having only played the Phantom outside of tournaments, I was only used to seeing it played the one way. I didn't realize that it had become a real problem in competitive circuit. I see now how a ship that appeared in over 50% of lists would make tournament play rather boring for folks who played non-phantom lists. I guess I was just miffed that I went out and bought 2 ships and then the rules changed and folks in my area then claimed the ship to be useless.

I don't know...is the Phantom still a good ship? You tell me.

Sorry, didn't know you didn't play the Phantom in tournaments/hadn't seen it in tournaments.

Sometimes it was 50%, usually less. Honestly that's just a rough estimate/number I pulled from my ass but it was super common. It was prevalent enough to force you to play a hard counter to it, or else you simply lost. OR you could just fly a fat turret who didn't care where it moved to and did a great job against most other things.

Eventually you started to see them a little less and less over time because literally everyone was playing a fat turret based squad. But pretty much all Imperial lists were Phantom Deci at the time, it was real irritating.

The problem with it was most apparent when you'd have like 4-5-6 TIEs or 2-3 X-Wings or B-Wings against it and it could just see where you moved to and what decloak you accounted for and have it just omnisciently decloak the other way. Even if you correctly guessed the maneuver often you simply couldn't do anything about the decloak. So turn after turn this thing could just pick wherever it wanted to go and then dump 4-5 dice at you with gunner and FCS.

If you spread out your arcs you ended up getting shots with a TIE or 2 a round as the Phantom could just kill one a turn. It was impossible to bring enough guns on it because of the way it moved.

With the VI, ACD, FCS, Gunner loadout on Whisper you'd end up with 4-5 agility, and a defensive focus, always. So this combined with the broken way it moved at PS 8-9 prevented you from actually damaging it if you did get it in arc.

Basically, if someone didn't land it on an asteroid, didn't face a fat turret or the handful of wonky hard counter lists that could autokill one of these and lose against everything else, they'd win. Every single time. You'd end up with situations where one player would have 5 TIE Fighters and an Alpha Squadron with Targeting Computer against a pre-nerf Phantom and they'd be losing. Losing with 60-70 points against a 44 point one.

It's still a very good ship now. All that's changed is that the decloak happens before everything else in the round, besides for a handful of "Start of the round" effects like Intelligence Agent. So now it's locked into one decloak so it's actually possible to predict now. The Phantom player can no longer just see that his optimum decloak position has been accounted for and decloak the other way anyways. It functions as if the decloak maneuver had its own dial.

Because that's how most other ships in the game work. You set a 1 hard turn on a ship and your opponent accounts for that and sets up a kill zone around it, uh oh. Not just, "*shrug* I'll decloak the other way."

Thanks for the detailed info. I started another thread about Phantoms and got a wealth of info...much of it agreeing with what you said here. I can understand why folks wanted the change. It would be pretty boring (and unprofitable for FFG) if everyone was playing the same ships with few differences. In all honesty, I think I am going to make an effort to fly a phantom in a few lists...if for nothing else, it can be a slippery decoy to soak up enemy fire as per Soontir Fel.

Cheers

That is an incredibly funny way to put it, Moon. I would have to agree.

Come on 'Death, Unhinged Astro makes the list so insanely different that it's not even remotely related to a Rebel 4 Gold TLT R2 Astro list? If that's the case then I guess I'm just not as hardcore as you.

Edit: Man, I used a similar rhetorical device to end my post. Sorry, 'Death. But, bro/sis/fellow human, come on!

Yes, it does. IT MAKES IT EFFIN GOOD.

Really, the rebel TLT Y-Wing has no use for its Astromech slot outside of R3-A2. The scum one gets its own set to chose from and both Unhinged and R4 are incredibly powerfull. Rebels can't really run a quad TLT list that is better than UA/R4 Scum TLTs.

On a turret ship R2 astro has no significance at all. UA on the other hand makes the three turns availiable when stressed and even green! R4 makes the TLT hyper accurate. The differences between rebel and scum Y-Wings might seem minor, but it really isn't. Salvaged Astromech is an entirely different slot.

Quad TLT is a scum list that can be imitaded badly by rebels, not a "very rebel list".

No hard feelings, there is room for disagreement here.

You guys have a weird concept of support. The attack shuttle is a cheap crew platform with great stats for the price. Some of those crew cards (few) have a support effect. The HWK is a ship with supporting abilities, which makes it an entirely different beast. Support is not the combination of crew and turret upgrades.

To be honest I see the attack shuttle as a 20 point Tactician platform that leaves a lot of room for other ships. Jan Ors or any other support crew is just too clunky on it.

We've got too many shuttles!

>_>

Anything with 3 attacks isn't a "support" by any means.