i was gonna give people the tie-D with ions. now its just disgusting holy lmao this thread is embarrassing

Then run a god **** Sigma with Tactician. That's 27 points and you get hell of a ship with it.

Also the Phantom with Captive is really tried and tested. People will have to shoot it at some time.

VTs with Mara Jade or Tactician are other possibilities.

You have ALL the possibilities, but i guess you just don't wanna hear it and go on whining about Rebels instead.

To be fair, this is kind of the point, at least with regard to stress.

He points out that Imperials don't have cost effective control and you toss out a 27 point 4 health ship that only has control at R2. It has a decent gun, but that's about it. It's rarely even going to last much longer than a TIE (and a TIE will probably outlast it more often). The other options listed are in the 50 point range.

Compare that to the king of control, the TLT stresshog, which is 26 points (1 point cheaper), has better control, is more survivable, and has a comparable gun in the TLT+title. Of course, we don't even have to go that far since a B-Wing tactician is also cheaper. A key to stress control is that you are able to put other ships into the list that can take advantage of it and that's a reason the rebels feel like they have more options in that respect. I think that's going to change when Imperial Veterans arrive.

Imperials, at least right now, are based around the best way to simply burn down enemy ships because their stress/ion control isn't cost effective and they don't have regen. Believe me, I've tried very hard to make an effective control list with Imperials but it just doesn't work. I really like Mangler Kath with Tactician, VI, and EU and have done OK with it, but that's an expensive Kath with no additional damage mitigation, nor does she hit especially hard for the cost, and it doesn't leave a ton of points for much else. She worked in a two ship meta, but not so much now. I also like the idea of the Ion+Tactician Shuttle, but that's a ship with little to no range control.

Imperials do have decent secondary control in ships like Omega Leader, Carnor Jax, and Kagi.

All this isn't to say they can't be competitive. They have some very good ships and a lot of choice in what kind of style they want to pound the enemy (swarm, mini-swarm, deci+ace, or aces), but that's pretty much the focus of their strategy right now. The argument that I should probably play rebels if I want control is valid, except that then I end up playing a ton of mirror matches which I don't find very interesting. It's another reason to be excited about Imperial Veterans since I think some of those options will be more valid for Imperials but will feel very different than what the rebels have.

Then run a god **** Sigma with Tactician. That's 27 points and you get hell of a ship with it.

Also the Phantom with Captive is really tried and tested. People will have to shoot it at some time.

VTs with Mara Jade or Tactician are other possibilities.

You have ALL the possibilities, but i guess you just don't wanna hear it and go on whining about Rebels instead.

To be fair, this is kind of the point, at least with regard to stress.

He points out that Imperials don't have cost effective control and you toss out a 27 point 4 health ship that only has control at R2. It has a decent gun, but that's about it. It's rarely even going to last much longer than a TIE (and a TIE will probably outlast it more often). The other options listed are in the 50 point range.

Compare that to the king of control, the TLT stresshog, which is 26 points (1 point cheaper), has better control, is more survivable, and has a comparable gun in the TLT+title. Of course, we don't even have to go that far since a B-Wing tactician is also cheaper. A key to stress control is that you are able to put other ships into the list that can take advantage of it and that's a reason the rebels feel like they have more options in that respect. I think that's going to change when Imperial Veterans arrive.

Imperials, at least right now, are based around the best way to simply burn down enemy ships because their stress/ion control isn't cost effective and they don't have regen. Believe me, I've tried very hard to make an effective control list with Imperials but it just doesn't work. I really like Mangler Kath with Tactician, VI, and EU and have done OK with it, but that's an expensive Kath with no additional damage mitigation, nor does she hit especially hard for the cost, and it doesn't leave a ton of points for much else. She worked in a two ship meta, but not so much now. I also like the idea of the Ion+Tactician Shuttle, but that's a ship with little to no range control.

Imperials do have decent secondary control in ships like Omega Leader, Carnor Jax, and Kagi.

All this isn't to say they can't be competitive. They have some very good ships and a lot of choice in what kind of style they want to pound the enemy (swarm, mini-swarm, deci+ace, or aces), but that's pretty much the focus of their strategy right now. The argument that I should probably play rebels if I want control is valid, except that then I end up playing a ton of mirror matches which I don't find very interesting. It's another reason to be excited about Imperial Veterans since I think some of those options will be more valid for Imperials but will feel very different than what the rebels have.

Because for the rest of the game you will probably not get a lot of shots anymore. Either you go all straight 1-2 for a few turns or you will not get actions or k-turn or go fast anymore.

Hell the Stresshog is not even found in real control lists anymore, it's rather made to enable your ace to kill one enemy ace. It's good at that. But it's also a unique ship because of the unique droid.

By the way it is a long time that i have seen a real rebel control list. Like 1 Stresshog and 3 B-With Tacticians or Ion Cannons. This list was once at the edge of competitive, but it never really made the final jump to really competitive. If the B-Wing is such a control powerhouse, then why do you hardly ever see any tactician/ion/flechette control B-Wings played. Or do you see any of these?

Conclusion: Imperial control lists are a non-thing because there are neither rebel nor scum nor imperial control lists even played in the meta. Control lists are a non-thing in the meta at the moment! There lies the problem!

Well it really seems all the whining is then about ONE configuration of the Y-Wing that has severe drawbacks then.

You cannot do exactly the same with imps perhaps, but what i have actually done is to fly a 30 point Phantom with Mara Jade on board into the enemy fleet. You could do it at 28 points but i added a stygium for better defense. And guess what, Mara Jade or Rebel captive do not exist for Rebels. Empire has its unique stress mechanics too

Then instead of a B-Wing you could also go with a shuttle with Tactician. That's 1 point cheaper than the B! The one i proposed was expensive because of Engine Upgrade and Gunner (to go for double stress).

Then like you can read a little further up here, Imps have other unique control options like Kagi, Carnor, Zertik Strom, Palpy, Omega Leader..

But why all this whining then is my question? Factions are distinct. Imps have no R3-A2, Rebels have no Carnor Jax. Why not just accept the fact that these things make the game interesting?

Rebels do not have privileged acces to good control lists, that's just not true. True is that Imperial players choose to not use control elements in their lists. They prefer another ace or generic ships, or other support options, like Palpy, instead.

You have exactly one upgrade that makes it possible to double stress an enemy in arc for rebels, as i daid. And yourself too. Anything else is ALSO tactician-based, cannon-based or torpedo-based. And therefore not any different from Empire, which on top of that have their own unique stress mechanics. You just have to use them!

Now, with the Tie Shuttle upgrade they will have one of the cheapest tactician carriers there is. And still i would bet that this ship will not see a lot of competitive use, at least not as a stress inducer. Because control lists are not a thing right now, and because imps will probably prefer other options, like Crackshot Omegas at 18 points!

Seriously, can this thread die now? All the whining is embarrassing (and I'm saying this as someone who took a Defender to 5 store championships last year).

Good that i practiced a lot of Vessery too lately. and flew all of my tournaments but two with imps lately.

No seriously we have a very balanced meta right now. Look at List Juggler there are victories and top 3 placements from all 3 factions and in equal numbers.

And this weapon is very powerful. The Defender is probably the best carrier for it with its title. That could really shift it in imperial favor. Well i guess 4 B-Wings or some Scyks are also good as cheap carriers, and can flexibly decide who shoots tractor beam and who shoots normally.

Now i can really see control lists becoming a thing!

haha, Tie/D Tractor Beams are now just dumb and I want 3 of them

Oh, Vandy. Your argument is very cute, but I'm talking about the paradigm of the factions not the individual components. The A-Wing stands out as a ship kind of at odds with the Rebels' paradigm as you pointed out the ships in the Imperial paradigm that do the same.

I'm proud to play Imperial faction in X-Wing, I like high risk, high reward gameplay. I thought we were having a discussion, but I guess some are taking this hard besides they feel like they are being called out. That's not my intention, but you guys saying this thread should die and calling out the Imp oddballs, like the previously revilied Defender, need to own your position. Just tell us all that you prefer soaking crits with shields, always rolling 3 attack dice at range 2+ with the vast majority of the ships available to your faction, and shooting your opponent without having them in arc. Say it with pride, I'm sure the top ten at Worlds would agree with you. Most of them.

now we're going to have to call Onyx or Glaive tractor Tie/Ds "Anglers"

they go fishing for TLTs

but I'm talking about the paradigm of the factions not the individual components.

I see, so apparently the parts don't actually make up the whole then...

I'm sure the top ten at Worlds would agree with you. Most of them.

Let's just look at that shale we...

Out of the top 16, 7 Imperials, 7 Rebels and 2 S&V. Out of the top 10, which doesn't really matter but... 4 Imperials, 4 Rebels 2 S&V.

Oh, Vandy. Your argument is very cute, but I'm talking about the paradigm of the factions not the individual components. The A-Wing stands out as a ship kind of at odds with the Rebels' paradigm as you pointed out the ships in the Imperial paradigm that do the same.

I'm proud to play Imperial faction in X-Wing, I like high risk, high reward gameplay. I thought we were having a discussion, but I guess some are taking this hard besides they feel like they are being called out. That's not my intention, but you guys saying this thread should die and calling out the Imp oddballs, like the previously revilied Defender, need to own your position. Just tell us all that you prefer soaking crits with shields, always rolling 3 attack dice at range 2+ with the vast majority of the ships available to your faction, and shooting your opponent without having them in arc. Say it with pride, I'm sure the top ten at Worlds would agree with you. Most of them.

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper. You are missing scope when you just look at rebel ships and say "they are easier". In a lot of departments, especially repositioning, they aren't, unless you allow counting the "oddballs" as you call them, but why shouldn't we then do that with the empire as well?

Playing all factions gives you a better understanding of the game.

Oh, Vandy. Your argument is very cute, but I'm talking about the paradigm of the factions not the individual components. The A-Wing stands out as a ship kind of at odds with the Rebels' paradigm as you pointed out the ships in the Imperial paradigm that do the same.

I'm proud to play Imperial faction in X-Wing, I like high risk, high reward gameplay. I thought we were having a discussion, but I guess some are taking this hard besides they feel like they are being called out. That's not my intention, but you guys saying this thread should die and calling out the Imp oddballs, like the previously revilied Defender, need to own your position. Just tell us all that you prefer soaking crits with shields, always rolling 3 attack dice at range 2+ with the vast majority of the ships available to your faction, and shooting your opponent without having them in arc. Say it with pride, I'm sure the top ten at Worlds would agree with you. Most of them.

but I'm talking about the paradigm of the factions not the individual components.

I see, so apparently the parts don't actually make up the whole then...

I'm sure the top ten at Worlds would agree with you. Most of them.

Let's just look at that shale we...

Out of the top 16, 7 Imperials, 7 Rebels and 2 S&V. Out of the top 10, which doesn't really matter but... 4 Imperials, 4 Rebels 2 S&V.

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper.

The Tie Fighter is point for point, the best ship in the game per MJ. Yes it's less forgiving than an X-Wing, but not by much and it's less than half the cost.

It's also not like the shields on a X-Wing, Y-Wing or B-Wing will keep those ships in the game for long if they're being focused on.

I know, thats what I was going for. In a vacuum a TIE Fighter looks worse than an X-Wing, but once point costs come into the picture the empire always had the edge and appareantly is going to set a new standart with the x7 Defender.

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper.

The Tie Fighter is point for point, the best ship in the game per MJ. Yes it's less forgiving than an X-Wing, but not by much and it's less than half the cost.

It's also not like the shields on a X-Wing, Y-Wing or B-Wing will keep those ships in the game for long if they're being focused on.

not anymore

it's been dethroned

by the Delta Tie/x7

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper.

The Tie Fighter is point for point, the best ship in the game per MJ. Yes it's less forgiving than an X-Wing, but not by much and it's less than half the cost.

It's also not like the shields on a X-Wing, Y-Wing or B-Wing will keep those ships in the game for long if they're being focused on.

Actually I think he has the Z rated higher now.

I know, thats what I was going for.

I got that. I had to edit my post to remove unneeded snark... So it came out slightly differently than I intended.

But it seems that in most of these "Imperials get the shaft" threads some people's arguments are effectively based on taking things out of context. They point out how TIE's lack shield but ignore how well they arc dodge, or how much cheaper they are.

Is arc dodging harder to use effectively? Sure but it's a skill every player of X-Wing should develop because A-Wings need to arc dodge every bit as much as a Int does. Heck T-70's and B-Wings benefit from that skill.

They also tend to bring up Worlds and other tournaments, because Paul flies Reb's and want to make it seem like he does that only because they're easier... Which simply doesn't cut it. You don't have a winning record like Paul does because your faction is easier. Especially when he won his first Worlds with a XXBB list, against a well flow TIE swarm which has been, and always will be considered a apex predator in X-Wing.

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper.

The Tie Fighter is point for point, the best ship in the game per MJ. Yes it's less forgiving than an X-Wing, but not by much and it's less than half the cost.

It's also not like the shields on a X-Wing, Y-Wing or B-Wing will keep those ships in the game for long if they're being focused on.

Actually I think he has the Z rated higher now.

it is higher by an insignificant % thanks to +1 ps

to say nothing about the stiff dial and lack of b-roll, because it is mathwing after all

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper.

The Tie Fighter is point for point, the best ship in the game per MJ. Yes it's less forgiving than an X-Wing, but not by much and it's less than half the cost.

It's also not like the shields on a X-Wing, Y-Wing or B-Wing will keep those ships in the game for long if they're being focused on.

Actually I think he has the Z rated higher now.

the TIE/D blows everything out of the water

edit x7

Sure, your ships are worse. They are also a lot cheaper.

The Tie Fighter is point for point, the best ship in the game per MJ. Yes it's less forgiving than an X-Wing, but not by much and it's less than half the cost.

It's also not like the shields on a X-Wing, Y-Wing or B-Wing will keep those ships in the game for long if they're being focused on.

Actually I think he has the Z rated higher now.

the TIE/D blows everything out of the water

edit x7

ito jousting values, it's the x7actually

Tie/D is difficult to fit into raw math cause all the cannons are control oriented, so adding just the damage off of the ion/flechette attacks would be misleading

Just for the record... I fly both Imps and Reb's, and a little S&V from time to time. When I'm at a tournament I will always fly Reb's but that's due to aesthetics as much as anything. I just love how Reb ships look and like them better then Imp's.

But when I play casual I'm as likely to grab imps as rebs, especially if the person I'm playing already has reb's on the table.

Both sides have advantages and disadvantages which makes them fairly well balanced.

But it seems that in most of these "Imperials get the shaft" threads some people's arguments are effectively based on taking things out of context. They point out how TIE's lack shield but ignore how well they arc dodge, or how much cheaper they are.

Exactly what drives me insane about these discussions. It is to some extend understandable, though - the people who initiate these threads often are those who exclusively play one faction (specificaly not stating that here, I bet threads like this exist plentiful about how rebels are so much weaker in numbers or how scum doesn't have options). There is nothing wrong with only playing one faction, it is significantly cheaper after all, but sometimes you have to take a step back and realize that you are missing a point of view essential to the discussion you want to lead.

I bet threads like this exist plentiful about how rebels are so much weaker

I can say for sure, that it's about a 50/50 split with new players posting a 'how can Faction X beat Faction Y' around here over the years.

For every "The rebels seem OP'ed" you see from a new player you'll see a "How can I beat Imperials?" post from a different new player.

The Shuttle is a cheap support ship, not unlike the HWK but with better dial and firepower. However you can't load it up because it has 2 agility and 4 HP. It's a Z-95 with evade action!

I have all 3 factions, so I (hope I) am not prejudiced. I also think the Inquisitor is probably being very dominant in the future to come.

But some decisions are just strange, like the Punisher not having slam, it seem to pale a lot in comparison.

The key word in your sentence above is "cheap". My gut feeling says "I have a bad feeling about this". I'd say, the attack shuttle is just a lot too cheap for what it brings to the table. Saying it is a Z95 is stupid, sorry, it has 3 red dice, evade and can field turrets and crew (better than missiles, illicit). It will probably almost completely remove the rebels Hwk (apart from maybe Roark) from the equation, as it does support stuff far better than the Hwk.

Complaining that it gets expensive and risky when loading above absolute minimum, that problem have MANY ships, esp Imps and Scum small ships.

And Sabine Attack Shuttle is going to be sick! I guess it is stuff like this which gives die-hard imp players, and not only them, mixed feelings.

(...)

The Shuttle is cheap, but you can't load it up as an ace. Hera can get PS9, and Sabine's ability is very strong. But it will not make it for the sole reason of TLTs. 4 HP 2 evade, no Autothrusters or other defensive boons. That can be 2 Y-Wings shooting and dead!

The HWK dies at 2.5 TLT shots, probably earlier as it flies like a brick.

None of the shuttles abilities suggest it would be a support ship.

That's is the point I am trying to point to

The HWK is support, as it has a sh*tty dial (2nd worst in the game), but it is cheap, and you get the combination turret + crew. On the rebel side only the K-wing had that as well, but being a lot more expensive. So the HWK made a nice support, maybe not so much in the tournament scene, but in casual it is fun.

HWK 4 hull/1shield. PS2 for 16pts, PS4 +special for 19pts, PS6 + special+EPT for 21, PS8 + special+EPT 25pts.

Tada, entry the Attack shuttle:

Totally viable on its own as a fighter, as evade and 3 attack dice and a good dial. Further, Combo turret+crew opens for support.

2hull/2 shields. PS3 +special for 18pts, PS4 + special+EPT for 20pts, PS5 +sick special+EPT for 21pts, PS7 +special+EPT for 22pts.

Why taking a HWk at all now when playing rebels, and wanting to have cheap turret + supporting crew?

Edit: Slight modification in "point" sentence. Added last sentence.

Part of the Empires problem is that they have so many truly dud pilots (Fel's Wrath, Lorrir, Kir, All 3 named shuttle pilots, Mr. Steele, ALL BOMBERS before veterans) even if the ship has merits there were very few reasons to take more than 1 of any of the named pilots and firespray, bomber, and defender generics are all pretty inefficient options.

I hadn't thought about this, but it's completely true.

Any X-Wing pilot except for Biggs (changes with IA, but for most of the world that isn't out), any named B-WIng, any generic E-Wing, all T-70s except for Poe, named rebel HWKs clearly have the worse abilities, the generic Falcon is a joke.

Any generic Star Viper, ALL SCYCKS, the generic HWK.

While it is true that the empire has a few duds and Fels Wrath undebateably is the worst pilot in the game, all factions have things on the level of TIE Bombers, ATC Stele or generic Firesprays or Defenders. It is not like the empire is of worse. That the TIE Bomber generic is innefficient is by the way completely wrong, it is only a hair weaker than the TIE Fighter! Granted, it does have a weaker dial which seals the deal for most people, but a high hull Bomber swarm can be a thing.

The problem with Xwings was never the pilots. They have amazing abilities and are in a dud ship. That changes with IA. Interceptors outside of Soontir/Canor/Turr were still not great after their first "fix" and only 2 of those 3 see play at all now that we have their second fix (thrusters).

Named Bwings are just as big an issue as shuttles... but at least they have 2 generics that both see play and Keyan and Ten both see way more play than all 3 shuttle pilots combined.

Hwk pilot abilities are nutso... dud ship. Would love every one of those abilities on a shuttle! T-70 is a wait and see. They have that tech slot. That's a can of worms just waiting to be opened when you look at astromech slots to combo with.

For the Imperials the just have such GOOD ACES that they pretty well eliminate all other versions of that ship. Soontir is just hands down better than the other interceptors if you have the points. Canor gets used as a second to Soonts, and if you're an old school player and need some points you can make do with Turr...the generic interceptor can't hang. It's like the ewing except they have more options to choose from and still only take one pilot. Advanced are very similar except the generic is efficient enough to see play but most named, unless you have a gimmick, hold no candle to Vader. NO bomber sees play...the generic just happens to be the best (although I expect them to make a comback). Phantom? Just Whisper... Echo is **** good. Whisper is just better. Generics? HA!

So do we really have the short stick over here on the imperial side? No! We have probably the 2 best aces in the game, crazy new defender toys (which is really what most people complain about when they hate on the imperials- stale staples from wave 1-2 are still some of the best), a 3 att ship with 10hp for 21pts... just wish we had more options and on something that didn't come from wave 1-2 (though personally I love deathrain).

Don't pitty the empire. Pitty the rest of the scum.

THEY SURE DON'T GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK NOW!

But Scum sure does. Poor bastards.

I always use Royal gaurd pilots... They make excellent flankers... Seriously what are some people's metas? You all make it sound like every list is Fel/Poe x3 in a list.

If you are a good pilot, you can make anything work........ well don't look at me!