I just wish that they would de-nerf the Phantoms...still burning about that.

You are one of few.

In general the game is much more balanced and there are far fewer absolute situations than most people present on the forums, especially some of the louder members. Unless there's a huge mismatch in skill or one list is significantly worse than the other most games will be close.

Also palp aces is love, palp aces is life.

?

Well, I saw an "often used" ship become a "little used" ship. I don't believe there's only a few folks who are not impressed with the change. Not sure how nerfing an expensive ship fixed a balance problem.

I just wish that they would de-nerf the Phantoms...still burning about that.

You are one of few.

In general the game is much more balanced and there are far fewer absolute situations than most people present on the forums, especially some of the louder members. Unless there's a huge mismatch in skill or one list is significantly worse than the other most games will be close.

Also palp aces is love, palp aces is life.

?

Well, I saw an "often used" ship become a "little used" ship. I don't believe there's only a few folks who are not impressed with the change. Not sure how nerfing an expensive ship fixed a balance problem.

kinda the whole point of the nerf

it was The used ship; now the empire can take other stuff that isnt objectively worse

there are very few folks (surprised there are any) happy to see the nothin but whisper + deci versus fat falcon forever meta disappear down the fetid sarlac pit where it deserves to be

Guri does just fine. She has taken down her fair share of PS 8+ pilots. But then again... You actually need to know how to fly... She isn't new player friendly.

YV are just fine. This whole TLT thing is getting ridiculous. It's the freaking boogie man of x-wing. They are no where near that scary nor are they going to Swiss cheezy that ship. I've been playing since wave 0, and honestly if the TLT came back when, it might of helped stop fat han, but what really hurt him was the MoV scoring.

Anyone that disregards a HWK soon learns their folly. They again, work just fine, but you have to work them into a list you like and that works with it.

The moment you believe any ship in this game makes an auto win/lose, it gives a true telling of skill level.

Guri costs like a truck and hits like a truck. if you don't dodge her arc.

Guess what happens if your opponent isn't another "I don't play things that appeared in meta" hipster

YV would have been fine if the Daredevil stayed a red maneuver. and if TLT's didn't turn it into cardboard box.

It's a boogie-man until you fly a 1-evade ship with no damage mitigation whatsover. Then it's your nightmare.

Anyone who knows how easily HWK dies turns it into 30 points of pure MoV in no time.

And the only one who really hates HWK is TiePhantom. The rest don't really care.

If you think it's a competitive choice, your right to. It seems you're special in that way

There are counter-matchups, and ships that have less counter-matchups than they are to.

And then there are ships that have more counter-matchups than matchups they desire.

That's an auto-lose situation.

You have more chances to auto-lose than to win. And that s u cyks

I think you overestimate TLTs power. The YV-666 takes two turns to burn down given perfect dice for a quad TLT list, but it usually has the advantage of large base boost, which should avoid at least one TLT every turn, usually more. With excellent action economy and a strong partner (maybe someone that doesn't give a crab crap about TLT) in two turns you can take down one TLT which is only going to fire once in that case because of higher PS. After that the game is pretty open and probably in the non TLT spammers favour. I am not afraid to take a YV-666 up against quad TLT.

I think people just need to look at new ways to using Empire, as well. I think the new Tie Defenders are going to add a lot to Imperial lists and open up a lot of options.

I think LRS and Guidance Chips are going to make Tie Bombers even better, but I still think they are good right now with Extra Munitions and Homing Missiles. They can be a little tricky with the TL, but practice can help with that.

Personally, I think ordnance alpha strike is going to be a thing for Imperials. Right now the big Rebel tough nuts to crack are:

1) Regenerating Shields

2) TLT's

If you can blast a shield regenerator early enough, you can kill them before they get a chance to regenerate shields. Even if you can hurt a Shield Regen ship, it will peel off for a number of turns and let you try to beat up the rest of the list. As long as you have enough left to take out the list before the hurt ship comes back, you are still good.

Also, if you can kill a TLT fast, then the list starts to fall down. It's a matter of kill them faster than they kill you. Right now some of the most popular Imperial builds are only 3 ships. TLT's eat these kinds of lists. So.....if you face TLT's...build a different type of list. Alpha strikes can help kill a TLT in the first round and make it easier to pick the others off.

I think it's time for people to start looking at other Imperial lists that have more than 3 ships. Maybe Soontir Fel shouldn't be the first thing you put in a list, as well. People build their lists these days with full plans on how to take out Stealth Soontir Fel. You know any competitive player has worked up plans on how to kill him.

Ahaa! We're back to the "The Imperials have received less goodies!" threads.

No worries my friends, after that the Imperials received the Phantom and the Decimator.

Imperial Veterans is on the way as is a Gozanti with TIEs and the Inquisitor.

Relax, be patient, it will turn out fine!

I think chads onto somethin

I have never had any problems whatsoever with TLTs,

I also dont fly 3-ace builds

my most recent fascination is a 5 Tie mini-swarm of super screw your dice Ties and FOs, and TLTs just melt in their pressence

lots of PS 4+ shots + Y = atrocity

also crackswarm is fairly popular locally because it just eats TLTs

I think chads onto somethin

Anyone who tried his 4 Bombers knows that An amazing, if not easy to fly, build.

Our meta (Barcelona,Spain) has plenty of imps (myself included) but we seem to not win major tourneys no more. Some thoughts:

Green dice are a trap. crackshot and TLT amplifies it. We have Horton TLT showing up at almost every event.

Damage mitigation has a huge impact on timed games, the fewer the rounds played, the better it gets. Rebels can now regen with 3 aces. Soontir's damage output is not reliable as TC is not an option no more so better roll hot.

Fat Han (Luke crew) + Jake Prockets and big init bid are a thing. Han will always be a monster, Chiri is on decay by comparison and Palpie is more of a point sink on him than it's salvation (rolling 0 greens is sadistic with all the new crits on the damage deck)

Stress kills PTL, arc dodgers best friend ( boost + BR on the same turn). Rebels got Talon Rolls, Boost on T70 and Slam on Kwings (Advanced Slam is dandy). We got Fo's Segnor, BR with speed 2 template and no fixes for Lorrir.

PS 10 belongs to Rebels now, even TLT Horton with the droid!

Dash was the best blocker in the game, now you can have a K-wing with IA for little few points. We have the old cow and good ol' ties.

Cheap shielded 3 red dice are still on rebel side only (Blue squadron).

I'm not complaining and Imp Veterans will bring us back tot the top tables but these days aren't rainbow and unicorns for the Empire unless you are into swarms.

I don't think its chance that Pheaver chooses, and wins, with Rebs. They rely the least on chance, and can still outfly and outsustain Imp aces. Imps are doing pretty well, but ultimately, Rebels are just more forgiving. Poe's 6hp, 2ag, and regen will eventually outlast a 3 hp Fel over the course of several games.

In my mind, this is the big balance problem right here.

To me, Rebel regen is only one step above cheating. (I admit that I am an outlier. No, you can't make me change my mind.) The entire point of the game is positioning and proper action choices with a little bit of luck sprinkled in. Regen utterly negates these things such that an Imperial player is punished mercilessly for one turn of bad green dice while his Rebel opponent shrugs off a similar turn and goes about his business.

This is further compounded by TLTs, which Imperials do not have access to and are completely meta-wrecking. I honestly thought Imperials were on a good road when they showed us the TIE/x1 title. When they released TLTs just a few weeks later, they completely threw the Advanced back under the bus.

Imperial lists can - and do - win. That does not mean that the factions are remotely balanced, IMHO. Rebels will always win more consistently as long as they have access to ridiculous upgrades like R2-D2 (who literally has to do nothing to earn his regen ability but set down a dial). Imperials are more reliant on green dice, which will eventually fail you at some point.

This is a particular sore point for someone like myself who does not want to fly Rebel. I am looking forward to the forthcoming Defender titles, as they are desperately needed, but who knows when they will actually arrive.

I have hope for Scum with the (as yet unspoiled) G1-A, but we'll have to see.

uh...seems heaver was always a rebel at heart

heres his 2013 championship build:

source: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/ffg_blog/23832/original_content

I just wish that they would de-nerf the Phantoms...still burning about that.

You are one of few.

In general the game is much more balanced and there are far fewer absolute situations than most people present on the forums, especially some of the louder members. Unless there's a huge mismatch in skill or one list is significantly worse than the other most games will be close.

Also palp aces is love, palp aces is life.

?

Well, I saw an "often used" ship become a "little used" ship. I don't believe there's only a few folks who are not impressed with the change. Not sure how nerfing an expensive ship fixed a balance problem.

A 44 point ship that could reliably solo down all/most of a list that wasn't turrets/built specifically to hard counter it was a huge problem.

You could fly the two named ones for ~86 points and nothing else and what would happen is that you'd autowin against everything that wasn't fat turret based or some funky list that jumped through hoops to hard counter it. It was ******* stupid.

Now you see them represented about as much as any other ship. People seem to think that a ship no longer being in 50% of squads as a negative and, "not often used." Welcome to most of the balanced ships in the game.

There were also a ton of people that used the omniscience of the old decloak rules as a crutch, just like Super Dash players do now. That's where most of the anger over the nerf comes from, from no skill babies who now actually have to think and predict instead of reacting and omnisciently picking the best maneuver possible.

To me, Rebel regen is only one step above cheating.

Might not be able to change your mind but have you tried palp aces? That is basically only 1/2 step above cheating honestly and it feels amazing. You won't really be that concerned about regen ships when you can not only blow them up in 1-2 rounds you can also usually ignore their return fire due to modification. You might have to play careful around Stressbot but if you do they melt real fast.

To me, Rebel regen is only one step above cheating.

Might not be able to change your mind but have you tried palp aces? That is basically only 1/2 step above cheating honestly and it feels amazing. You won't really be that concerned about regen ships when you can not only blow them up in 1-2 rounds you can also usually ignore their return fire due to modification. You might have to play careful around Stressbot but if you do they melt real fast.

well, no

Palp is actually cheating

Palp is actually cheating

What, being able to control crits, bombs, and obstacle damage isn't normal and fair?

I don't think its chance that Pheaver chooses, and wins, with Rebs. They rely the least on chance, and can still outfly and outsustain Imp aces. Imps are doing pretty well, but ultimately, Rebels are just more forgiving. Poe's 6hp, 2ag, and regen will eventually outlast a 3 hp Fel over the course of several games.

In my mind, this is the big balance problem right here.

To me, Rebel regen is only one step above cheating. (I admit that I am an outlier. No, you can't make me change my mind.) The entire point of the game is positioning and proper action choices with a little bit of luck sprinkled in. Regen utterly negates these things such that an Imperial player is punished mercilessly for one turn of bad green dice while his Rebel opponent shrugs off a similar turn and goes about his business.

Totaly ignoring your request not to try: You do realize that Rebels regen is tied to pretty restrictive, predictable manouvers or to an action that can be blocked or worse, stressed away? It does tie into the other game mechanics pretty well. Regen is obnoxious, but it is expensive points and opportunity wise. You can catch an E-Wing or X-Wing that has to green bank all game, ignoring the only straight going Y-Wing. You can also, especially as imperial, block Poe, who pretty much is the only user of R5-P9. Tactician, last time I checked, also is not faction locked, so idealy you block him at range 2 of one of your crewed ships. After that, he will be dead. Or is deliberate blocking cheating, too? Stressdealing?

What's this 4 bombers build? How does it fly?

What's this 4 bombers build? How does it fly?

it flies like a brick that both shoots and ***** bricks

they're straight jousters with a twist! Unlike most generics, homing missile bombers can actually harm autothrusters

in order to compensate for their stiffness, seismic charges absolutely wreck more efficient enemies or at least deny them K-turns behind the formation (or else get a faceful of explosions)

the chadwick bomber is a homing missile + seismic + munitions (+ LRS or GC) scimitar squadron * 4, though I cheat by getting Omega Leader in there to not totally feel like I'm ripping him off

What's this 4 bombers build? How does it fly?

Well, there are two primary types right now and it depends on the number of TLT builds out there. My preferred method, and best without too many TLT's around is:

4 x Scimitar Bombers w/ Extra Munitions, Homing Missiles, and Seismic Charges (and soon Long Range Sensors)

With TLT support:

4 x Gamma Bombers w/ Extra Munitions and Homing Missiles

I've done it a lot with Jonus and that required you to fly in formation. It was a weakness and also allowed people to focus on Jonus. I tend to fly near each other, but not in formation. This way you can catch those pesky arc dodgers with a couple of ships. Now, if you can get people to come out you through asteroids and the board edge, it's OK to joust them. You can usually smear at least 1 ship in the first pass.

It's important to learn the Rule of 11 and know your approach. I started playing game after game and game and just restarting with a friend until I got the approach at least decent. Darkhorse also wrote a great web article about Tie Bombers that talks about approach and using the Seismic Charges. If you are in formation and drop all your bombs at once, you can really destroy a ship. He also mentions that it's possible to get right out of R3, but then rush in and get right in their face. That either causes a bump or they are close and can't concentrate all on one ship. You can then grab TL. Next turn, you 5 K-turn as you drop Seismic Charges. Makes it hard for them to get out of the way.

It's important to try to get just one or two ships in range at one time. It's actually not too bad to do with a 1 forward and a 4 forward. The dial on the Tie Bomber is actually pretty good, especially with the 1 bank. Overall, if you can get just 1 or two of their ships in range and have TL on them, you can destroy it without taking too much fire back. Getting LRS will help this out immensely.

One danger is to watch out for one ship getting shot down fast. It is hard and you don't really want all of his list able to hit one. If it's still alive, but mauled, it helps to actually pull out of the fight and come back late game. You can usually have a last missile to throw in late in the game.

You dont' want to TL the same target with all your bombers, unless it's a big one. Two Homing Missiles is usually enough to destroy one ship, but sometimes it does take 3. It's hard for ships like Soontir to turtle when he's facing several Homing Missiles and can't use Evade.

People forget about the Bombs. They are so much fun to use! I've hit Poe with 3 before and Dash with 4 at one time. I usually drop them and K-turn to utterly destroy the ship the round they hit the bombs. I'll rush and grab the TL, but not use it until I K-turn.

The dial on the Tie Bomber is actually pretty fantastic. If you already have the TL, you can even Barrel Roll to get someone in range. A 1 bank and BR will cover a lot of space. The 5 K-turn is usually better to do instead of trying to turn. I was able to have a fantastic game with a good player from out of town that came down to the Barrel Rolling A-wing vs. 2 Tie Bombers (with only 1 or 2 missiles each). We fought for 30 minutes before I finally was able to block him and blast him with my last missile. It was joyous. My opponent was surprised at how mobile the Tie Bombers were.

Hmmm....these are just a bunch of random thoughts thrown out. I'll probably have to write something proper at some point.

Totaly ignoring your request not to try: You do realize that Rebels regen is tied to pretty restrictive, predictable manouvers or to an action that can be blocked or worse, stressed away? It does tie into the other game mechanics pretty well. Regen is obnoxious, but it is expensive points and opportunity wise. You can catch an E-Wing or X-Wing that has to green bank all game, ignoring the only straight going Y-Wing. You can also, especially as imperial, block Poe, who pretty much is the only user of R5-P9. Tactician, last time I checked, also is not faction locked, so idealy you block him at range 2 of one of your crewed ships. After that, he will be dead. Or is deliberate blocking cheating, too? Stressdealing?

Imperials can't build effective stress lists right now; that's something ELSE that is essentially Rebel-exclusive (though Scum can make a half-hearted attempt). So no, handing out stress is not a viable counter to Rebel regen for Imperials. (We all know Kath is better on paper than in practice.) The jury's out on whether or not that will remain true once the TIE Shuttle title is released. Presently, all Imperial ships with crew slots are large based, meaning that you cannot run them in enough quantity for Tactician to be effective; even when the title releases, you still won't have TLT to be able to double stress your opponent's ships with only one of your own.

R2-D2 regen is unblockable. All the little schmuck has to do is set his dial. He may be predictable, but we still have to roll dice, and I can't be the only one who has spent six or seven consecutive rounds shooting at Corran Horn to no discernable effect. One game against Corran I emptied Redline's entire arsenal of Cluster Missles and Plasma Torpedoes at him and never got through his shields. Yup, that's fun.

R5-P9 is more restrictive, I'll grant you. The ship can be blocked, the token stolen (Palob) or prevented (Jax) or similar. Still, the fact that you can now regularly see two regenerative ships in a single list is hardly "balanced".

I haven't even talked about Miranda, whose regen is effectively infinite and not dial dependent or blockable.

I think people just need to look at new ways to using Empire, as well. I think the new Tie Defenders are going to add a lot to Imperial lists and open up a lot of options.

I think LRS and Guidance Chips are going to make Tie Bombers even better, but I still think they are good right now with Extra Munitions and Homing Missiles. They can be a little tricky with the TL, but practice can help with that.

Personally, I think ordnance alpha strike is going to be a thing for Imperials. Right now the big Rebel tough nuts to crack are:

1) Regenerating Shields

2) TLT's

If you can blast a shield regenerator early enough, you can kill them before they get a chance to regenerate shields. Even if you can hurt a Shield Regen ship, it will peel off for a number of turns and let you try to beat up the rest of the list. As long as you have enough left to take out the list before the hurt ship comes back, you are still good.

Also, if you can kill a TLT fast, then the list starts to fall down. It's a matter of kill them faster than they kill you. Right now some of the most popular Imperial builds are only 3 ships. TLT's eat these kinds of lists. So.....if you face TLT's...build a different type of list. Alpha strikes can help kill a TLT in the first round and make it easier to pick the others off.

I think it's time for people to start looking at other Imperial lists that have more than 3 ships. Maybe Soontir Fel shouldn't be the first thing you put in a list, as well. People build their lists these days with full plans on how to take out Stealth Soontir Fel. You know any competitive player has worked up plans on how to kill him.

I have to agree with most stuff you say here chadwick

Just one or two things. While i greet the Defender and Bomber fix (man how i love these ships as an old X-Wing series player), i actually think that the Empire has just as many, if not more, competitive options as Rebels do have even right now!

I always think when i play Empire, i have more choice in decent ship/pilot combinations than Rebels do have at the moment. It's really Poe, Doni, Corran as aces and TLT/Stresshog, Z-95/A-Wing as generics and fillers, and Dash as large turret. That is Rebel meta at the moment, there is not much more available. Sure They are decent, but their builds are very limited, nearly written in stone too. And they don't have one decent PS9 pilot at the moment, the aces are all PS8 and Doni and Horn really will not/can not take VI

After the next wave and Imp Aces II they will have a whole lot more choice than Rebels with the TAP and fixed Defender. The Ghost will probably not be competitive because of TLT meta and large ship nerf, and the Attack Shuttle is nice, but i think it will rather be played as cheap supporting craft with a crew slot more than as a real fighter.

Rebel ace pack II will need to balance the odds a bit again i guess.

The philosphy behind imperial ships is just a different one. You don't have "multirole" in their ships. That is a concept alien to the Empire. Cheap and efficient designs at what they are supposed to do. And this fluff element is pretty well anchored in the miniatures game.

A few examples:

- K-wing/Y-Wing vs. Punisher/Bomber - K-Wing and Y-Wing are multirole craft, but they are expensive for what they do and can withstand. They also are not as good at their actual primary role, which is shooting ordnance. Look at the Systems upgrade on the punisher for instance and at the bigger payload of the Bomber vs the Y.

- Interceptor vs A-Wing - They are similar, and yet the Interceptor is better at its primary roles. Arc-dodging and bringing the hurt. The A-Wing has an expensive missile slot that was paid for and uneccessary (fixed by Chardaan thankfully), and fancy shields. But lacked barrel roll and the firepower.

- Tie Fighter vs. X-Wing. In the Jouster category, we can see a greater efficiency on the Tie Fighter's side, because it does not carry unneccessary features like shields (well that's debatable ) and because it's cheap. The X-Wing also has fighter-bomber features like a Torpedo launcher (which are not exactly good in this game) that make it expensive and it lacks good options, like an evade action and barrel roll, that every fighter would like to have. They had to bring the Z-95 to balance this fact out a bit...

So you should build your imp lists and fly them with that in mind. Tell yourself: My ship is the best ship at doing what it is designed to do and if i play to its strengths, there are few things that can stop me. If however i mess up while sh** is hitting the fan, there is no plan B. No hyperdrives, no shields, just guts.

This is actually more than just fluff. You pretty much need to fly them this way, because if you want to be pampered with additional gimmicks (and i don't mean options, because they have good and efficient ones) you need to play another faction.

What's this 4 bombers build? How does it fly?

it flies like a brick that both shoots and ***** bricks

they're straight jousters with a twist! Unlike most generics, homing missile bombers can actually harm autothrusters

in order to compensate for their stiffness, seismic charges absolutely wreck more efficient enemies or at least deny them K-turns behind the formation (or else get a faceful of explosions)

the chadwick bomber is a homing missile + seismic + munitions (+ LRS or GC) scimitar squadron * 4, though I cheat by getting Omega Leader in there to not totally feel like I'm ripping him off

Goddamit Fickle, that's the list I've been playing in an attempt not to rip him off! Now I have to try something else not to rip you both off!

The philosphy behind imperial ships is just a different one. You don't have "multirole" in their ships. That is a concept alien to the Empire. Cheap and efficient designs at what they are supposed to do. And this fluff element is pretty well anchored in the miniatures game.

A few examples:

K-wing/Y-Wing vs. Punisher/Bomber - K-Wing and Y-Wing are multirole craft, but they are expensive for what they do and can withstand. They also are not as good at their actual primary role, which is shooting ordnance. Look at the Systems upgrade on the punisher for instance and at the bigger payload of the Bomber vs the Y.

Interceptor vs A-Wing - They are similar, and yet the Interceptor is better at its primary roles. Arc-dodging and bringing the hurt. The A-Wing has an expensive missile slot that was paid for and uneccessary (fixed by Chardaan thankfully), and fancy shields. But lacked barrel roll and the firepower.

Tie Fighter vs. X-Wing. In the Jouster category, we can see a greater efficiency on the Tie Fighter's side, because it does not carry unneccessary features like shields (well that's debatable ) and because it's cheap. The X-Wing also has fighter-bomber features like a Torpedo launcher (which are not exactly good in this game) that make it expensive and it lacks good options, like an evade action and barrel roll, that every fighter would like to have.

10/10

STUFF

I have to say I am looking forward to busting out the Bomber swarm again once Guidance Chips are out. Some fun space to play in there that might be effective against a variety of things.

STUFF

I have to say I am looking forward to busting out the Bomber swarm again once Guidance Chips are out. Some fun space to play in there that might be effective against a variety of things.

It will also make a single Tie Bomber viable again.

Full Disclosure, I'm primarily a scum and imp player.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems the strong meta builds as of late have been heavily favoring Rebs, and to a lesser degree scum. All the stuff out there to turn Y wings into death machines, the mini falcon K wing, and the nearly as good as super fel t-70 aces all seem to be way more powerful and, more troubling, exploitable than what the Imps have received as of late. I'm not saying imps have gotten nothing good, just that what they have gotten seems less exploitable. There's some potent stuff on the horizon for the imperials, namely imperial veterans will finally make the tie defender scary. But somehow this seems eclipsed by the other recent developments to the rebel and scum metas, Thoughts?

(just FYI, I'm making this reply after only reading OP, haven't read the rest of the thread yet.)

As an Imperial only player, yeah sometimes it does feel like we're getting shafted a little, but for now whenever I get the urge to get my ruler out and see if the sky is any closer to the ground I just bite down and think of Imperial Veterans.