in future errata book and future book for RT and for deathwacth serie future products

give info for throne price of item to grant owners and players of DH the possibility to use easily the new items its only 1 column in items table

and put threshold for psychic powers for those who like the DH system of spychic capacity

keep in mind that the 2 games if both are stand alone they are both part of a series warhammmer 40000 and lot of players use both game as complemental source of infos RT bringning space to DH and DH granting lot of ploting for RT

stat skill and talent compatibility are good but price (in throne) and psy power are part of the system .too

book are suppose to simplify the live of GM and player via granting them all infos they need to play fast and easily..if we need to make convert of system from book to book this is not what i call compatibility and if is not to complicated for items prices is not so easy for psychick powers and that is what i consider a bottering part of RT

so please consider player of all system when you create book for wh40k univers (DH, RT, DW) are all part of one world and need to use the same system if you grant new way to use some part of the game dont just drop the other ones but keep it (dont tkae lot of space 1 column for items price and 1 line for psy power)

anyway for a more positive point i like both game and expect to have the possiblity to follow both when comme the time of new book release (hope i can buy all )

I'm with you on this one.

Ross is probably sick of every playtest report I send him having a rant about the prices of equipment. But I shall never desist!

This assumes everything, or even most things, in the RT armory chapter are bought with things as mundane as cash, and furthermore, that the things bought with cash have few enough zeroes in the amount of thrones that you can afford them. If you want cross-system compatibility, just import Profit to DH as "Requisition." Its that simple.

i dont agreed whit you ... item are not realy more expensive that the one in DH but in RT you purchase lot of them and not only one

a chainsword in DH cost 250 throne an hecate chainsword in RT (p. 131) probably cost neer 450 or 500 you dont NEED PF to purchase it if you need just one and DH player dont need to have more of one or 2 items of the same type so they dont need to purchase 200 or 300 of them to trade.them later

price for item is someone we can ask for

ok price for ship or ship construction is out of realism vs DH but i dont ask price for them but for weapons ammos armors gears drugs implants

once you are out in the Expanse, where are you going to spend your money? There will be true value in goods or services, as opposed to money.

However, I would like to see prices for possible treasure items which might be found, such as alien art, tech, you name it.

I dunno, I kind of like the idea of a Rogue Trader docking the ship, making a few acquisition rolls, and then sending "his man" out with a list. Certain items might be hard to find, but then that's one of the reasons he's got a Seneschal in his retinue.

And if a single piece of alien artwork isn't valuable enough to move your profit factor up a point, it's really only good for display in your private chambers (so long as you don't invite the Inquisition for a sleepover!), or to barter outright. In which case it's exact value in Thrones becomes moot. What was the precise cash value, I wonder, of the Dutch beads that bought Manhattan island? It really doesn't matter, does it?: To the Native Americans, they were rare and priceless alien artwork!

Same goes for alien tech, except instead of display it might have some function the players find useful. If not, and barter to an appropriate adeptus won't yield a single profit factor point, why bother?

Unless you love a long string of zeros so much that you want to get into keeping track of how many Thrones accrued over the course of the group's exploits will equal up to one profit point, thereby undermining the whole purpose of the abstract Profit Factor system: "**** it, that's scribe-work, man!"

"No respectable gentleman in London knows the balance of his chequebook." -Oscar Wilde

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

The OP isn't asking for how it should be done in Rogue Trader or the Koronus Expanse. The OP is clearly asking for the promised cross-over rules, since FFG did promise that Rogue Trader was supposed to be fully compatible with Dark Heresy.

But with the finished product, this isn't the case. Dark Heresy doesn't use Profit Factor, it use Thrones. And by omitting the prices measured in Thrones of different items in Rogue Trader they have pretty much forced Gamemasters to try and come up with arbitrary prices measured in Thrones, and if you don't want it to be arbitrary, you have a pretty hefty task in front of you managing to put balanced prices on everything.

The OP clearly just want to know what price in thrones to put on a Harlequins Kiss or a digi-weapon for play in Dark Heresy, not in Rogue Trader. So why would you bring up the issue of money in the Expanse?

Did the DH suppliments that provided stats for Dark Eldar and Ork weaponry give the price for them in Thrones? I don't recall.

HappyDaze said:

They were a little inconsistent on that one.

In Disciples of the Dark Gods you could find a price list in "The Cold Trade" section in the Xenos chapter, but in other parts of the book where they described other artifacts (some of them weapons and equipment of more or less heretical nature) they didn't have any prices at all.

Also I don't think they included prices for anything in Creatures Anathema either.

Still, in Disciples of the Dark Gods you have a clear cut price in thrones for Eldar Shuriken Pistols and Shuriken Catapults. I see no reason why FFG couldn't provide a price in thrones for something like a Harlequins Kiss as well...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Because I'm not aware of any retail outlet in the Imperium where you can buy a discount Harlequin's Kiss or find a Jokaero Digital Weapons bargain bin. These are Xeno-tech: illegal to buy, sell, or own. Rogue Traders get around this because they ARE in the expanse, where their "liberties" go unobserved or (somewhat) overlooked due to their elite caste, and because the people who buy from them are elites in their own right, and can afford the high price of these wares (reflected by the Profit Factor system).

The Eldar find the human concept of currency "distateful," so direct purchase is not going to happen, period. If the Dark Heresy players want to buy Eldar tech from humans on the black market in the Segmente Majoris, the opportunity to aquire this tech should be rare and the price subject to the GMs discretion anyway, as opposed to an arbitrary "price guide". As for paying good Thrones for Ork-tech... that's a joke right?

Perhaps a devout group of Inquisitors has acquired some of these items and wants to open their own all-night heretical contraband convenience store (Uhh... sketchy, but OK...). The price is the average of what the players put on it and what anyone dumb enough to buy heretic-tech from an Inquisitor is willing to pay. ("How much you want for that six-pack, Agent Ness?"). There is no "going rate" for these items and there never should be.

If a GM wants to twist canon enough to make the above endeavors possible, that is of course their prerogative. But if that's the case then they shouldn't be too worried about an "official" price guide.

If the OP doesn't want to play Rogue Trader, but rather use it as a sourcebook while he plays Dark Heresy, then more power to him. But then shouldn't he be bringing this up in the Dark Heresy Forum? That is, what do you expect to get out of a bunch of RT players? Just sayin'...

Scipio Brahe said:

Well, there aren't any established "retail outlets" for other Eldar weaponry either, but they still have listed prices measured in thrones in Disciples of the Dark Gods. And that game is primarily situated in the Calixis Sector and not the Koronus Expanse.

As noted, that one instance of giving prices for the Eldar weapons appears to be an exception rather than the norm for statting up xenos gear. Archaeotech is probably right alongside it in the no pricing category.

Varnias Tybalt said:

You'll forgive me for not being familiar with "Disciples of the Dark Gods". That's a DH supplement? And the only example anyone can find of price lists for Xeno technology? And was published before RT? Is it possible then that the conversion you seek is present in the absence of arbitrary price lists for Xeno-tech in RT? Simply put, if you're going by Rogue Trader rules, then the Xeno Stop-'n-Shop is closed until further notice. Makes perfect sense to me. Certainly much more sense then Inquisitors buying and selling (with the Emperor's thrones, no less!) heretical items from a book called "Disciples of the Dark Gods". Don't get me wrong; I'm sure a lot of Rogue Traders wish every agent of the Inquisition they had to deal with was so... business-minded!

Also, I edited my last post after I went back and read your prior one. I took out a lot of what I said about how if you're not going to use RT rule systems then you're not playing RT. I realized that I misunderstood the problem: the OP isn't trying to play RT at all, or even using the Koronus Expanse as a setting for his DH game... just looking for more Xeno-stuff to buy, I guess.

Anyway, I guess you had already responded to the old one before I could get the new one up. My revised statement stands. I don't think a thread concerning people who are playing strictly by DH rules really belongs in the Rogue Trader forums, but I ain't mad at ya... just wondering what what you thought to accomplish by posting here?

Since I'm not playing DH, I guess this thread really doesn't concern me at all. I'm gonna head over to the Anima Card Game Forum now. I've got some questions about the Navis Nobilite I need answered. Good night... Ye Gods! Is that the time? Good Morning!

Jeesh, that's some extreme rules-lawyering there.

I post here but don't use either rules system. Should I push off then?

Of course there are some kind of backdoors avenues of purchasing xenotech items (including weapons) for money inside the Imperium. Isn't that the whole point of the Cold Trade? The point is they are rare, shadey, VERY secretive, and VERY VERY pricey.

That said, I think a scaled down version of the Profit Factor rules would be a godsend for Dark Heresy, where the absurd lack of pc funds was a major sticking point (amongst several others) for our group when we tried to play the game. Make the purchasing power of DH PPs lesser than RTs, and you're laughing - no more begging or stealing to buy a burger because the Inquisition inexplicably chooses not to pay you.

And y'know, there are more than just Xeno Artefacts in RT. How much for the good old fashioned just like the Omnissiah used to make Hellguns? Power fist? Implanted Armour? Synthetic Muscle Grafts?

Marcus Galva said:

Er, why?

The Chainsword in the Dark Heresy rulebook and the Hecate-Pattern Chainsword in the Rogue Trader rulebook are identical in every way except availability (the one in RT is Average, the one in DH is Rare). What justifies this difference in price.

If you're planning to use RT as a DH sourcebook, most of the prices you'll need are already there - a great many of the items are identical between the two games (some are in the Inquisitor's Handbook rather than the rulebook, but the point remains), and where items are similar instead of identical, it's not that difficult to work out costs to account for those differences. It's only, then, with the new items that a price has to be made up from scratch... and quite frankly, in most of those cases, the items are sufficiently rare and valuable as to be essentially priceless, at least where Throne Gelt is the only consideration. You want to buy a rare Xenos artefact? You'll pay the asking price; if you can't afford it, you shouldn't be looking to buy it in the first place.

Scipio Brahe said:

Well since you can use PF to buy Xeno weaponry if you want to in Rogue Trader, then clearly the "Xeno Stop-n-shop" isn't closed til further notice, not even in the Koronus Expanse.

Also you don't play Inquisitor in Dark Heresy, you play as undercover agents WORKING for an Inquisitor. Some Inquisitors are pretty lenient about xeno tech (pretty half of Ordo Xenos), and some of the time they have no idea what the hell their acolytes are doing (it's called "under cover work"), and during these times the acolytes could very well be dealing in xenos weapons like Eldar Shuriken catapults or Hrud Fussils, making a little extra cash on the side.

You'd be surprised how many Inquisitors go by a "Don't ask, don't tell" philosophy regarding their acolyte's activities as long as they don't do something that would likely destroy the entire subsector.

Scipio Brahe said:

Well, you're not really an appropriate arbiter over who "belongs" in any forum or not.

Also, the OP's issue is perfectly viable, mainly because FFG promised "full compability" in their rules with Dark Heresy. Clearly the compability isn't as "full" as some would have hoped. So the OP certainly belong in the Rogue Trader forums, even if s/he plays Dark Heresy.

Scipio Brahe said:

Now you're just being ridiculous. Anima Card Game isn't even a part of the "Warhammer 40.000 Role Play" line of products, Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy are. They are a lot more connected to eachother in that way, and questions concerning one does certainly concern the other as well. If you can't see that then... Well perhaps you're right when you say that this topic doesn't concern you...

nikink said:

Well at least there are prices for Power Fists and Hellguns in Inquisitors Handbook. It's just that Rogue Trader seem to have updated Hellguns.

But you have a good point with the Cybernetic augmentations like Implanted armour and Muscle Grafts. No one could argue that "they are so expensive only Rogue Traders and their cohorts could afford them", because there are plenty of examples where even normal hive gangers have synthetic muscle grafts, and they're not the richest people around, even if they are part of some snassy crime syndicate.

well i just be bluff by the order change in special aspect of weapons balance, tearing and tearing, balance i just miss the balance of DH book so i put greater price for hecate ...now i have make verification price dif is not justified by stat. in fact looking on availability price may be less RT is average and DH is rare....so more common in RT may reduce price

and for eldar weapons in creature book , the price ir indicated page 85enoulians and orc weapons too.

for arlequin kiss i dont see anything that stop player to purchase it like others eldar weapons (this is illegal but others too are illegal) just put availability to extremely rare or nearly unique.

Adam France said:

Adam France said:

I think that's the smart way for FFG to go, as opposed to coming out with lists of throne amounts for given items. The discussion has been largely about Xeno-tech and whether there should be a standard cost for a given item (I still say no.), But I thought about it some more this morning, and I realized that a standard throne value for any given item in the Imperium is pretty far fetched.

I was walking down the street and I passed a gas station. I noted that the price of unleaded had not risen since yesterday. A few blocks later I passed another gas station where the price had jumped 2 cents since yesterday. I had gone out to get materials for my art class tomorrow, and I realized I was not going to the most convenient art store (which is about a mile from my home), because I can get the same items, same brand, same quality, cheaper at a store farther out of my way (art student=broke. So believe me, I feel for your agents scrabblin' for burgers!). The point of this is that there is all this variation in price for the same merchandise in only a five mile radius... Now multiply that by a number with enough zeros trailing it to fill up your hard drive, and that's roughly the area this economy entails.

It's really a stretch to say that a common quality stub revolver costs x thrones anywhere you go to buy one in the vast Imperium. So many factors to consider, ever changing with conditions, time, and location. You would need to come up with a modified price list for every world you visited!

But if, as you suggest, there were a Profit Factor system in place for Dark Heresy players (I wouldn't know how to implement it, maybe a group of agents is given a "Warrant of...Inquisition" by their employer? Like a 40k credit card... black probably, and adorned with skulls.), each planet could have a simple Acquisition Check modifier, which would indicate how easy/hard it is to get a given item in that planet's economy.

Abstracting wealth would help in another way as well. On another thread around here somewhere we talked about players in RT who worry about how big their ship accommodations are or whether or not they can have a harem. I think that stems from a lot of time on dungeon crawl duty, and I said that I had to explain to my player's that their days of poking around for copper pieces after they killed the kobold chieftain (or begging or stealing to buy a burger!) were over. Suddenly all the wealth (really the only motivation in a lot of games out there) is at your fingertips, and the players are a little confused and gluttonous. (Your chambers are as big and gilded as you want them. Of course you have a harem!) A good GM will not give the player's much time to revel in their new found opulence. I think I said something like, "I gave them two of everything they wanted, then I gave them a flight of Eldar raiders off the port bow". Just so.

The problem of money out of the way, a whole new set of problems opens up, problems more in keeping with the spirit of the given game. In DH, that would be rooting out Heresy. It is to be hoped that players will spend more time acquiring Eldar shuriken catapults by pulling them from the corpses of the Imperium's enemies, or in the process of exposing and shutting down the Cold Trade, rather then trying to buy and sell them outright.

But if, despite having access to all the material comforts their heart's desire, they still want to "hustle" on the side, I think a GM should seriously consider that these players don't really make for good agents of the Inquisition at all, and find a way to bestow a Warrant of Trade on one of them... we could use a few more friends out past The Maw!

One more thing. Have you ever thought you were being witty and making great points one night, then went back and looked at your posts the next day and realized you were just being a jerk? Oh, well I guess it's just me then. VT, I disagree with your need for a flat rate on Xeno-tech, for all of the reasons I've stated. That said, your posts always bring about a lively discussion and a lot of ideas that I am learning and growing from as an RT GM. I'm certainly not a moderator, and a lot of what I typed was not very productive. Sincere apologies to you and anyone who was troubled. Happy Halloween, sir.

i dont ask price on throne for giving player xenos weapons acces but xenos gear are not the only new things in RT, new implants, new guns, new armor, new gear and those are build by the empire. why i ask price is for those items, xenos prices if they want to put it too (why not... they have done it in creature anathema) and i dont allow acces to xenos weapons as items they can keep, but prices for other gears is a legitimate request, at least both game are suppose to be complemental.

i agreed, xenos gears are illigal and the only time my players try to purchase some is to expose smuggler of illegal xenos items. but i find normal for them to ask me how much cost a motion predictor weapons add-on ,a jump pack or for a locator matrix cyber

more book probably come woth more gears for RT and i dont see the problems to put thrones price for items, at least DH players can use them too and not only rogue trader players. this is the same universe WH40K.

they say both game are going to be fully compatible but in the end they chance some system to grant a better playabiity to RT players but forget to maintaing the minimum infos needed to player of DH and on that the compatibility failed a little.

ok stats are the same

new class ...so far so good

power of player ....well a level 1 RT = a level 5 DH player so compatibility not to good here

acquisition systems PF vs thrones with no thrones prices in RT compatibility failure

psy powers activation 2 different systems and no info to keep the 1st one for those who like it..... compatibility failure again

the suppose full compatibility between both game is definitively a partial lie and this is not realy difficult to do ....just add thrones prices = adding 1 column in items table and adding threshold for psy power = adding 1 line in power description or 1 column in power table

i hope for those infos be present in future books

Scipio Brahe said:

No worries mate.

Happy Halloween to you as well.

Marcus Galva said:

Seems a simple PDF to make.

Perhaps Ross can get his interns to work on it LOL.

Marcus Galva said:

Hi , my first post here, hope it doesn't make me look like a jerk, but here goes.

Power of player. Well the RT players only have 8 ranks? I'm not sure that the power lvl compatibility is an issue, since my lvl 1 Rogue Trader I rolled up for my friends DH campaign is actually an amusing add, and actually seems a little UNDER powered after playing a few sessions. (Also a group of accolytes that suddenly have access to a ship and PF is quite amusing >.>)

Acquisition vs Thrones. I have to admit it, I think some of the gear needs a thrones value, but really, whats stopping you from creating one?

Psy powers..... well, they DID state quite clearly as to WHY the 2 systems are different, and to be honest, swapping back and forth between 2 systems for using the powers just seems like an over redundancy?

Good gaming everyone, and may your ships holds never empty of profitable goods! Well, at least not till you get to port......

LordMoldyvort said:

I think the main issue with creating your own throne values is because Rogue Trader has a completely diferent scope of the rarity of items in contrast to Dark Heresy. In DH an item could at most only be "Very Rare", but in Rogue Trader they can go up to "Extremely Rare" and "Near Unique". Making the translation of the two games more difficult.

For instance, with Rogue Trader measurements, some items described for Dark Heresy should perhaps be Extremely Rare or Near Unique due to the major differences in price.

Then there is also the issue of the fact that counterpart items in the two games have different avaliability. (one item in DH might be Scarce, while being abundant in RT and vice versa) So you don't really have an appropriate guideline to go one if you were to try pricing stuff yourself. Meaning of course that the majority of prices you set will be pretty arbitrary.

Also, welcome to the boards, I hope you'll enjoy your stay.