Isnt this the Edge of the Empire forum?

This contradiction affects all three games. This forum is the most visited of the three, partly due to the clarification thread and the GM subforum.

Yeah actually senses are not really passive. Noticing things in the shadows is vigilance, so I guess FaD finally corrected that issue...

I like the idea that Perception is active while Vigilance is passive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's an intentional change.

I guess I've been using it the F&D way all along. If the PCs are travelling with no reason to be suspicious, I'll ask for Vigilance. If they're moving cautiously through ruins and looking for trouble, I'll ask for Perception.

Is there a corresponding change to Stealth? In EotE and AoR, Stealth is opposed by Perception which makes Perception the passive looking for things skill.

The description was updated in FnD.

FnD pg. 127: Stealth checks are typically opposed by Perception, based on whether the opponent is passively or actively searching for the hidden character. If the opponent is actively searching for the character, the character’s Stealth check would be opposed by the opponent’s Perception. Otherwise, it would be opposed by the opponent’s Vigilance.

Isnt this the Edge of the Empire forum?

I like the idea that Perception is active while Vigilance is passive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's an intentional change.

In F&D there are several differences in how perception and vigilance are used to search for things. I highly doubt this was unintentional. An entire paragraph was added to the vigilance description.

The description was updated in FnD.

FnD pg. 127: Stealth checks are typically opposed by Perception, based on whether the opponent is passively or actively searching for the hidden character. If the opponent is actively searching for the character, the character’s Stealth check would be opposed by the opponent’s Perception. Otherwise, it would be opposed by the opponent’s Vigilance.

I think I'll do it this way:

-If the PC is trying to sneak past an alert guard (say, crawling through the bushes), I'll use Stealth vs Perception.

-If the PC is trying to cross an open area when the guard isn't looking (say, in the corridor of a Death Star), I'll use Stealth vs Vigilance

-If the PC is sneaking in cover by a guard that might not be paying attention, I'll use Stealth vs the lesser of the guard's Vigilance or Perception.

This way you won't get into a situation where a guard is harder to sneak past if the guard isn't paying attention.

I suspect that the changes in F&D might have come about as a natural evolution of the rules being used in actual play. The devs see that something isn't working as well as it should in the way it was originally intended, and then change it to fit better in subsequent releases. As an example, I remember that scanner goggles got a more detailed writeup in AoR than they did in EotE, and as a result it was easier to understand exactly what they did in mechanical terms.

I guess I've been using it the F&D way all along. If the PCs are travelling with no reason to be suspicious, I'll ask for Vigilance. If they're moving cautiously through ruins and looking for trouble, I'll ask for Perception.

This has been how I do it, as well.

Vigilant: alertly watchful especially to avoid danger.

Perceptive: having or showing an ability to understand or notice something easily or quickly.

From those definitions, "vigilant" sounds like the more active of the two and the one to be used when there is a reason to be suspicious. Being alertly watchful especially to avoid danger when you don't actually suspect danger doesn't make as much sense as being perceptive in the same situation.

Another example, imagine a captain telling a guard to actively keep an eye out for trouble. Which makes more sense?

"There are pirates afoot. Be vigilant for any and all signs of trouble!"

"There are pirates afoot. Be perceptive for any and all signs of trouble!"

Regardless, my group is going with FnD's rules, as it's the latest book, but there should've been an errata released. It's a rather large change to just slip in and not mention at all, especially during the beta phase.

From those definitions, "vigilant" sounds like the more active of the two and the one to be used when there is a reason to be suspicious. Being alertly watchful especially to avoid danger when you don't actually suspect danger doesn't make as much sense as being perceptive in the same situation.

I don't like how it's written out. It makes it seem like both skills do the same thing. For me, Perception is whether or not your senses are fooled. So a guy in camo hiding in the woods requires Perception to notice. Vigilance, OTOH, is whether or not the viewer is paying attention. That's why it's under Willpower because it is the mental discipline to remain focused on your task without checking your holomail every 10 minutes. So, for example, if three people enter the Cantina but only two exited, noticing that would require Vigilance. Perception wouldn't apply here as the people entering and exiting are easily viewable.

From those definitions, "vigilant" sounds like the more active of the two and the one to be used when there is a reason to be suspicious. Being alertly watchful especially to avoid danger when you don't actually suspect danger doesn't make as much sense as being perceptive in the same situation.

I don't like how it's written out. It makes it seem like both skills do the same thing. For me, Perception is whether or not your senses are fooled. So a guy in camo hiding in the woods requires Perception to notice. Vigilance, OTOH, is whether or not the viewer is paying attention. That's why it's under Willpower because it is the mental discipline to remain focused on your task without checking your holomail every 10 minutes. So, for example, if three people enter the Cantina but only two exited, noticing that would require Vigilance. Perception wouldn't apply here as the people entering and exiting are easily viewable.

This sums it up perfectly.

I've always kind of felt these skills are redundant. They should really be consolidated. Our games tend to use Perception for nearly everything except initiative. I'm probably doing the skill a disservice though.

Going forward I'm going to try to go with the Perception = Active, Vigilance = Passive.

Isn't it partly the idea that there is some redundancy in the skills?

Yeah, I'm just rolling with it, too. It certainly came in handy this past weekend, as my character has 3Y 2G Perception and there we SO MANY active search checks .

From those definitions, "vigilant" sounds like the more active of the two and the one to be used when there is a reason to be suspicious. Being alertly watchful especially to avoid danger when you don't actually suspect danger doesn't make as much sense as being perceptive in the same situation.

I don't like how it's written out. It makes it seem like both skills do the same thing. For me, Perception is whether or not your senses are fooled. So a guy in camo hiding in the woods requires Perception to notice. Vigilance, OTOH, is whether or not the viewer is paying attention. That's why it's under Willpower because it is the mental discipline to remain focused on your task without checking your holomail every 10 minutes. So, for example, if three people enter the Cantina but only two exited, noticing that would require Vigilance. Perception wouldn't apply here as the people entering and exiting are easily viewable.

Exactly. If you're paying attention, you're actively taking note. Great, now you're making me second guess switching to Vigilance as the passive .

Vigilant: alertly watchful especially to avoid danger.

Perceptive: having or showing an ability to understand or notice something easily or quickly.

From those definitions, "vigilant" sounds like the more active of the two and the one to be used when there is a reason to be suspicious. Being alertly watchful especially to avoid danger when you don't actually suspect danger doesn't make as much sense as being perceptive in the same situation.

Another example, imagine a captain telling a guard to actively keep an eye out for trouble. Which makes more sense?

"There are pirates afoot. Be vigilant for any and all signs of trouble!"

"There are pirates afoot. Be perceptive for any and all signs of trouble!"

Regardless, my group is going with FnD's rules, as it's the latest book, but there should've been an errata released. It's a rather large change to just slip in and not mention at all, especially during the beta phase.

How vigilant you are is how aware of your surroundings you are. How perceptive you are is how well you notice things when looking.

It always made sense to me that vigilance is what you use when not actively searching as being vigilant means you notice changes around you.

From those definitions, "vigilant" sounds like the more active of the two and the one to be used when there is a reason to be suspicious. Being alertly watchful especially to avoid danger when you don't actually suspect danger doesn't make as much sense as being perceptive in the same situation.

I don't like how it's written out. It makes it seem like both skills do the same thing. For me, Perception is whether or not your senses are fooled. So a guy in camo hiding in the woods requires Perception to notice. Vigilance, OTOH, is whether or not the viewer is paying attention. That's why it's under Willpower because it is the mental discipline to remain focused on your task without checking your holomail every 10 minutes. So, for example, if three people enter the Cantina but only two exited, noticing that would require Vigilance. Perception wouldn't apply here as the people entering and exiting are easily viewable.

Exactly. If you're paying attention, you're actively taking note. Great, now you're making me second guess switching to Vigilance as the passive .

This is where we differ. Someone who is vigilant in noticing things isn't being active, in my mind. The changes happen around them and their brain goes off, forcing them to then pay closer attention. Almost like Matt Damon in the Bourne movies. He wasn't actively looking for escape routes and guards and weapons. It was second nature.

Someone who is choosing to inspect something for more information is going to use their senses to see what they can get out of it. They are going to pause and very intentionally pay attention to something with their eyes, ears, nose, etc.

The description was updated in FnD.

FnD pg. 127: Stealth checks are typically opposed by Perception, based on whether the opponent is passively or actively searching for the hidden character. If the opponent is actively searching for the character, the character’s Stealth check would be opposed by the opponent’s Perception. Otherwise, it would be opposed by the opponent’s Vigilance.

Finally!