Okay people, time to bring this up to debate. First of all I'd like to tell all of you that I like the idea of the Origin path, since it is a more innovative way of making characters, and it sort of feels like the method that FFG and BI wanted to make with Dark Heresy (since with Inquisitors handbook you could buy background packages and coming from special homeworlds etc.).

But, there are some serious peculiar aspects to the rules as written in how to use the Origin Path. As for me, I've simply skipped using the "tracing" method described where you are supposed to follow a set line in your choices, and I just pick and choose aspects that fit the character and said characters background story, but in a way that's more like house ruling and not standard procedure, so I thought we could discuss the flaws of the standard procedure.

First of all we have characters from a Forge World. Im assuming that everyone knows what a Forge World is like according to fluff and such. The wierd part is that if you follow the RAW, the only birhtright that a Forge Worlder can pick is either Scapegrace, Stubjack and Child of the Creed. Let's break it down, shall we:

Scapegrace: "you spent years living by your wits as a scapegrace aidst entertainers, gangers, reclaimators, and other ne'er-do-wells on the fringes of Imperial society. " Okay, basically a scapegrace grew up in a circus troupe or something, a child of a bard or perhaps a dancer, keeping shy of the law and sometimes engage in some thievery and deception to earn the extra thrones. Call me crazy but exactly how common would this sort of culture be on a friggin FORGE WORLD? I mean, more than half of the population are often servitors, and the rest are either techpriests or indentured labour. Also I'd say that the servants of the omnissiah would actively oppose such forms of entertainment because it is considered a sign of "fleshy weakness" to enjoy the spectacles of music, dancing and other mortal delights. It seems to me that having a Scapegrace birthright would be more along the lines of something a Hive Worlder or Imperial Worlder would have, not a Forge Worlder.

Stubjack: "You were born to violence. It has surrounded you your whole life, and you've had a weapon within easy reach ever since you were strong enough to grip one." This has to be the most plausible one for a Forge Worlder. While I would expect that crime is more common on Hive Worlds rather than Forge Worlds, crime can be found pretty much anywhere in the Imperium, even on the domains of the Mechanicus. Still, having a Stubjack birthright doesn't really strike me as the first thing a Forge Worlder would choose. Especially not if said Forge Worlder intends to play an Explorator.

Child of the Creed: Okay this one doesn't really need a fluff text from the rulebook written in italics. It goes to great lengths describing how a person with the Child of the Creed birthright is favored by the Emperor and the Ministorum and that they basically grew up in an Imperial church. Since when did the Ministorum have ANY PRESENCE AT ALL on a Forge World? Seriously, we're talking about the people of a World that actualle get a penalty to interacting with people of the Imperial Creed, and for some reason these people can stioll have "Child of the Creed" as their birthright? It doesn't make any sense.

To put it bluntly, the Birthrights that a Forge Worlder have access to according to the RAW doesn't make any sense at all. You could of course choose to interprate them to fit in more neatly, like saying that "Child of the Creed" means "Cogling of the Omnissiah" instead but this seems pretty shoddy that you have to actually misinterprate the meaning of the Birthright completely for it to fit in with the overall background.

Then we have some other wierd aspects, for instance why can't Forge Worlder have "Savant" as their birthright in according to the RAW? I mean, Savant seems to be the dead give away of a Forge Worlder due to it's intellectual inclination. If you wanted to make a Forge Worlder Explorator, having those extra points to your Intelligence seems perfectly fair and reasonable, but because Savant is located too far away on the Origin Path, a Forge Worlder can't pick it unless the GM isn't adhering to the RAW, or if the group use the optional method of having a "free row" where you can pick anything you like.

Also, why can't a hiver have Scavenger as their birthright? I don't know about you but I've read tonnes of material regarding hive worlders who earn their living by scavangeing. Either hunting for archaeotech in ancient parts of the underhive, dealing in scrap metal, picking off precious materials from slag deposits etc.

If you ask me, it would seem more plausible/reasonable if Hive Worlders had access to Scavenger, Scapegrace and Stubjack as their Birthright rather than the current Stubjack, Child of the Creed and Savant. Mainly because it would fit the most common backgrounds that a Hive Worlder usually hail from.

Also the Forge Worlder should have access to Savant, Stubjack and Scavenger instead of the current Scapegrace, Stubjack, Child of the Creed. Symbolizing that if you're a Savant you were probably destined to become a Tech-Priest or Scholar of some sort, Stubjack would have you destined either as a Private Military Contractor to the Mechanicus, or perhaps one of multitudes of clones destined for the Skitarii Tech-Guard, or perhaps you just belong to one of the few criminal elements that fester on Forge Worlds. The Scavenger would most likely be someone of the Forge World underclass, or perhaps being the child of a family of reclaimators or hereteks.

Of course, if you made these changes to the Origin Path as it is written now, you would end up with other structural oddities as well. Mainly because FFG are so keen on making it to it's own chart. Perhaps the Origin Path would've made more sense if you didn't have to "trace lines" across it, and if they had just included all aspects but simply written that if you want to play a Forge Worlder, then you have access to these (hopefully more logical) choices rather than catering to the "line tracing" aspects, I don't know.

Still, I know that there are some meager attempts to rectifying these issues, like being able to do the path from top to bottom and bottom to top, having the optional rule of a "free row" etc. But somehow I don't think that's quite enough myself, hence why I skip these line tracing rules altogether.

But still, don you find these oddities to be a bit wierd too? What were they thinking?

Child of the Creed = Child of the Adeptus Mechanicus?

That's how I run it, since the Omnissiah is just as much a god as the Emperor (taken separately, otherwise it's a form of the Emperor).

MILLANDSON said:

Yes, that's what I said too. You could interprate it as being "Child of the Mechanicus" instead, but it's obvious that the writer didn't intentionally think of the AdMech at the time.

Just sayin'...

How is it obvious? If both of us thought it, it can't be that bad.

MILLANDSON said:

It's because we're roleplayers and probably used to tweaking around with interpretations and game mechanics when we spot inconsistencies in rulebooks. But the fact remains, just read the description of the Birthright in question. If one werent so familiar with the 40K setting as we are, you would never think of the AdMech when reading that description. You would be thinking of the Ecclesiarchy and Imperial Monasteries and robe clad monks speaking 40K pig-latin.

So let's keep the discussion from devolving into a prosecution/defense of the writers. I have made other points besides from the Child of the Creed birthright, and I think I make a pretty solid case of the fact that the RAW are flawed.

Also, there's the other question: why were they so keen on integrating the rules to make such a structured Origin Path? I mean, sure it's nice to have an overview, but if that overview comes from sacrificing believaility of the birthrights of different characters it seems that some pretty odd priorities were made.

I mean, would it have destroyed the whole thing if you just went throught it in steps, where the first step involves picking a home world, and listed under that home world are the three different birthrights you can choose that are appropriate considering your homeworld? Sort of like this:

Forge World

You were born on a Forge World, blablabla stuff about the Adeptus Mechanicus, blablabla you are a bit retarded when it comes to the normal Imperial Creed bla bla bla etc. etc.

You get these and these skills and talents and these bonuses and penalties to your starting stats.

These are the birthrights that Forge Worlders can choose from:

Stubjack

Savant

Scavenger

That way the Origin Path innovations would have stayed the same, and the players would have roughly the same choices as they do now. The benefit of course would be that the birthrights would make more sense than they do now. The downside would be... That you can't make a decent chart with an overview where you can do line-tracing.

Call me crazy if you want but I can manage without the line tracing chart shenanigan, if it means getting more logical choices to the Birthrights of characters that is...

I don't have my book in front of me, but I thought the "line tracing chart shenanigan" was only a suggestion for first time players to help speed along the process? Of course that doesn't explain the progression chart, however considering the way the chart is structured it seems there would be a high likelihood that some inconsistencies would arise if the line tracing was used as a hard and fast rule, which if memory serves wasn't the intent.

If you fit in on your home world you wouldn't ever have the drive to leave.

It does say CREED not Emperor, Ecclesiarchy, or Progenium. Creed is non specific and can be applied equally to both the Cult Mechanicus and Imperial Cult. The Cult Mechanicus is just as oppressive, if not more so, than the Imperial Cult. Even on Forge worlds there is an underclass that have “fallen through the cracks” just like a hive world. Most forge worlds are going to have a large non-mechanicus presence in the form of ministorum agents and infrastructure for sorting what supplies need to go where. Greater forge worlds and Mars are going to be the only real worlds that have little Imperial presence. The Dan Abnett book Titanicus gives a very interesting view of a forge world that has a massive Imperial presence not just politically but in the form of hive dwellers working in manufacturies.

Scapegrace = Street Urchin not necessarily circus raised. It means you were on your own from a very young age and managed to survive. Bean from Enders Game would be an example of a scapegrace. Maybe the AND should be an OR in the example line.

Stubjack: Well, I would say that industrial espionage and outright corporate wars occur constantly on forge worlds. Tech Priests like their secrets. They love finding out their competitions secrets even more. Don't forget that everyone wants what a forge world has, especially traitors and renegades

As for the Explorator class I was under the impression that they were basically outcasts from the Mechanicus that had too much curiosity and too much ingenuity for their own good and are sent out amongst the stars to explore and discover new things. (exiled to BFE to get them out of the way and make them someone else's problem)

The Origin Path is supposed to by WHY you have left your home, why you don’t fit in there, why you seek out a different life. I interpreted the selections as this is my home world and this is why it sucked so much I left.

"Don't be silly, Junior, of course you'll never receive the education of a Savant: You're Void Born, like your father and his father before him. Now get back to your post."

I like the Origin Path concept because it illustrates to the players, before they've even started playing, that they have been born into a caste system, and it sucks. I do not think that a Noble Born should be able to a Stubjack birthright, Nor should a Deathworlder have Chosen by Destiny as their Lure Of The Void. I do not like the idea of a "free row"; it negates the hard decisions the Origin Path presents during character creation. There is much talk about how "dark" 40k is and how miserable and restricted life in the Imperium can be. That's all fine and good until someone wants something they can't have.

It's a matter of opinion, but I think that the Origin Path allows enough variety that two characters with the same Career can still have a unique starting skill set to offer the party. There are more then a few RPGs out there that can't offer that. I think the format is stylized and very, well, 40k. Sure, they could have just put in some options at the end of each description. They could have just made it a d20 game too...

Now, having said all that, I agree that the Origin Path as presented is problematic and should have been more thought out. No Death World Stubjacks? No decadent, Renegade Noble Born? If there are no Criminal Navigators, who's guiding all these pirate raiders through the warp, and why do the rules provide for entire renegade houses of the Navis Nobilite? And we have an Explorator in our group, so I am intimately familiar with the unfortunate position of the Forge World in relation to the Savant Birthright on the path. So the players and I have agreed on the following modifications:

• We have exchanged the places of the Forge World and the Hive World on the Birth World row.
• An Explorator from a Forge World that chooses the Child Of The Creed Birthright does not receive a +3 bonus to their WP/Fel, and doesn't suffer a -3 penalty to Weapon Skill. They are devout adepts of the Omnissiah, and their Unshakable Faith talent reflects this. Note that any other career path that hails from a Forge World would be a "normal" Child Of The Creed. As stated somewhere else in this thread, that's probably why they left the Forge World to begin with.
• While the players don't get a "free row", we do allow them to "swing wide" once (and only once). Instead of choosing a path to the immediate right or left of the one above (or below, if they're starting at the bottom), they can choose a path two spaces to either side. With the Forge/Hive world switch, we feel it allows for more realistic options (Void Born Children of the Creed, Hive World scavengers, Arch-Militants driven by Vengeance, etc.), while preventing the "farther stretches" (Death World Vaunted, Scapegrace Zealots... you get the idea).

If a player came up with a great background that required disregarding the Origin Path, I wouldn't reject it out of hand (A Seneschal's daughter, born "at sea", might very well be a Void Born with a Vaunted Birthright). But to be honest, most of what I've seen so far are contrived attempts to get at a specific talent or fatten up the numbers on a character sheet.

So yes, I think that as written, the Origin Path rules are flawed and beg for house modifications. No, I don't think that they are for "inexperienced groups", to be discarded entirely by seasoned players. Perhaps more effectively then much of the provided background material combined, they demonstrate the strict and often unjust social strata of the 40k setting.

"I'll tell you why there are no Noble criminals, you insolent little scab! Because whatever we do is the law. Now get back to your post!"

ItsUncertainWho said:

From the description in the Origin Path, Birthrights aren't what convinces a character to leave their home world. It is the Lure of the Void (sort of like the name says) that does that. The birthright is supposed to be the description of ones upbringing, and in some cases it might have a connection with the Lure of the void, but that's far from always the case.

So I'd have to say that part of your argument is a little moot.

As for the Creed issue, you clearly expect that one is automatically open to intepretation. Read the description of Child of the Creed and tell me that you autmatically assume that it can apply to both the Imperial Creed and the Cult of the Omnissiah. For heavens sake, the word Omnissiah isn't even mentioned at all. It's blatantly obvious that this birthright is catered to Imperial citizens following the Imperial Creed and not the Cult Mechanicus.

I really have to wonder... the three forgeworld birthrights fit pretty well, IMO. Stubjack would be Sciitarii, Creed is Techpriest (as has been said, it fits pretty well with the AdMech) and Scapegrace, well, let's look at the examples: Ganger, Entertainer, Reclaimator .

Aye, I've been using Stubjack as the path for my Skitarri character. Makes a lot of sense to me. As does Scapegrace and Creed. But like others have said, the book itself says that the Origin Path is only suggested, not required.

Cifer said:

Yeah the stubjack part fits, I don't disagree with that one. I'd also assume that a Forge Worlder with Stubjack birthright is either some sort of Private Military Contractor working for the AdMech or a member of the Skitarii Techguard (would certainly be appropriate for a Birthright, since the Mechanicus are known to use eugenics and pretty much decide a subjects fate from birth).

But the Creed doesn't really fit. Sure, the Mechanicus are religious, but their religion is more like a method to remember the operation and function of technical devices without having to reveal their true function to the users. Basically their religion is more based on intellectual pursuits (but with some anti-intellectual pursuits with equal measure), hence why Savant would be more appropriate for a Techpriest than Child of the Creed.

As for Scapegrace, wouldn't you agree that Scavenger fit the picture of a Reclaimator a lot better? I mean, it's what they do after all, Scavenge parts and technology from old and disused equipment.

Now some of the aspects of the Origin Path are pretty non-descript and can fit in with a certain degree of interpretation. What I find to be wierd is that the flat out no brainer birthrights are sometimes not accessible to some Home Worlds.

I think the main flaw with the Origin Path is that someone decided to make a chart out of it and incorporate line-drawing into it.

I like the idea of chopping up the characters possible background and personality into little pieces and then assembling those pieces to create a full character. That seems to have been the basic philosiophy with the Origin Path, and I really like it. It's just that some things seems to have gone wrong when they tried to put the chart together.

For instance, why is it flat out impossible for a Death Worlder to have gone through a Dark Voyage or a High Vendetta? Why is it impossible for a Noble Born to have been press-ganged once before in his or her liftime, or seen the horrors of War up close?

Dark Voyages can happen to pretty much anyone who is aboard a vessel going through a botched warp translation. Death Worlds also tend to breed somewhat martially inclined cultures, where honor could quite reasonably be important, and if a Death Worlder comes from such a culture maintaining his or her honor in a High Vendetta would be completely plausible. Being press-ganged can also happen to pretty much anyone, regardless of stature and wealth. You have the Inquisition (notorious for press-ganing people into doing their bidding, even Noble Borns), you have crime syndicates willing to blackmail rich and wealthy people, and you have the dealings among Nobles that force one to learn it's place.

As for War, it can pretty much break out anywhere in the Imperium of Man. If it isn't Aliens or Black Crusades from the Eye of Terror, it is heretical coup's or just a standard planetary war for supremacy. It doesn't matter if you're a noble or a commoner, the tide of war will likely sweep you along anyway.

But if you follow the RAW, Death Worlders will never experience Dark Voyage or High Vendetta in their Trials and Travails and Noble Born's will never experience The Hand of War or Press-Ganged. Don't you find it a little wierd?

I think that's entirely down to personal opinion. I think that Child of the Creed fits fine with a firm believer in the Machine Cult and the Omnissiah, if only for the sheer number of rituals and masses they have.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I had some troubles with origin path for my Navigator in its creation, tho me and GM agreed on few changes of the meaning of some subtypes of origins.

Being a Navigator from nomadic house of Xan'tai (which we chose to decribe as techobarbaric tribe of spacefarers) i chose to be void born (we severed the linking of class to origin path tho the suggested homworld for class per the tapble remained) - scapegrace - renegade with free-thinker suboption (tho in this meaning defying the will of tribal elders not ecclesiarchy, therefore resulting in enemy (navis nobilitae)) - press ganged (hunted down by enforcers o the elders after my navigator gene chose to pop the eye) with jealous freedom suboption and finishing with vengeance resulting into hatred (navis nobilitae).

Adjusting the path thus made a nice flavored character with many reasons to form his own endeavors around his past adn solutions to it.

As with any rulebook, we take what the creators come up with and adjust it to our needs. And i guess it was meant that way. with some rules being just guideline to inspire.

I agree that there is no problem with a Forge worlder being a Creed child . (Getting a little "nuts 'n boltsy" here, sorry) We just thought that the -5 Fel penalty a Forge worlder gets when dealing with members of the Eccleasiarcy (Stranger to the Cult, RT pg 20) didn't "jive" with Creed Child's +3 Fel bonus (Child Of The Creed, RT pg25), so we did away with the Creed Child's weapon penalty to balance it out, provided that the character in question is an Explorator (the only career that would make a player a member of the Priesthood of Mars in good standing) .

Though the +3 Fel would help a lot with spreading the word and faith of the Omnissiah, may His name be praised in all things.

Yeah, but the way we play it, the Priesthood of Mars is more like a mystery cult: Enigmatic, robed, and with gears sticking out of their heads! Not a lot of sign-ups at the annual pledge-drives, if you follow me. And that's OK with them because they are more concerned with discovering the lost secrets then fattening the ranks, so negating the weapon penalty is more of a blessing on their pilgrimage.