Anything if you are happy just to kill Jan. 2 x Tie Advanced fit better with the glads squadron value, and let you shred the Xwings along side.

I tried it with tie fighters and it worked fine. If you are really worried bring Bossk in afterward to clean up the survivors.

I just like my build of Dengar, Mithel, 2x Firesprays, 2x TIE Advanced. It handles Jan Ors quite well

Wow. . . I am at a point where I completely disagree with R1H4 and DrunkTarkin with their debate on squadrons.

I am working on my review of DragonsLairAcc for Armada Tactics News. Can't wait to get it out there.

I don't entirely agree with them either Lyr. They make a good argument and it sounds like solid science but I think the tabletop will frequently play out differently.

I also fully admit I am perhaps the least knowledgable IFFer when it comes to squadrons!

I don't entirely agree with them either Lyr. They make a good argument and it sounds like solid science but I think the tabletop will frequently play out differently.

I also fully admit I am perhaps the least knowledgable IFFer when it comes to squadrons!

One thing you guys never mentioned was the interaction between Intel and Rogue. Sure Rogue can get locked down but if you have Intel then it won't matter.

Jan Ors is still rockin' it locally for us. She's at the very least an auto-include.

The interaction between Intel and Rogue is straightforward, so I guess there wasn't a strong need to feel like it be specifically called out... but I hear ya.

I have a tournament on Saturday and all this recent squadron debate is making me question myself on everything now. :/

Use the Force.

Remember, R1 and DrunkTarkin were simply theorizing.

The squadron question is really tough for an imperial player. I get substituting bombers for Adv, and generic Jumpmasters for Dengar, but ultimately I want to have a Rhymerball that is fire and forget without putting too many points into squadron support. Once even one ISD II is in your list, your options are very limited. Do you want three ship activations? Well you're either going light on ship upgrades or light on your squadrons. It's really a tough call.

Why not 12 tie interceptors. 11 advance? Or 15(?) fighters?

Still haven't gotten all the way through. Lol

Had to listen to the review a couple times. Thanks guys. :-D big smile on my face. Glad you love the docks.

Also there is WWW.DRAGONSLAIRACCESSORIES.COM

There is. Gallery with what has been and is offered. Will be updates with Star Wars pics soon.

Great product Alt.

As for the squadrons, I'm sure we went on so long that the original point - squadrons are for real - might have gotten lost. R1H4 and I are suggesting that no squadron builds are still possible, though, and that's fantastic. None of us much like the idea that anything is "bad" to put in a build.

Great product Alt.

As for the squadrons, I'm sure we went on so long that the original point - squadrons are for real - might have gotten lost. R1H4 and I are suggesting that no squadron builds are still possible, though, and that's fantastic. None of us much like the idea that anything is "bad" to put in a build.

Its Possible.

I feel Its bloody risky, and you need to work much harder to make a Ship's Damage Relevant versus undefended Squadrons - the difference for me is the maneuver - its going to be restrictive, whereas those Squadrons are limited only on range.

The Benefit? +1 Activation Advantage at the cost of ~2 Deployment Advantage.

Always back and forth

Well, I think there are some other benefits. Yes, a ship adds one more activation during the round - at the cost of a weaker deployment position - but it also adds x shields and y hull for undefended bombers to plow through. Right?

Can 134 points worth of bombers absolutely roll a single ship? Yeah! Definitely! Yet if my response to prevent that is <insert 56 points of squadrons here> I'm probably failing to realize the reality of the 134-points arrayed against me. There are so many possibilities with Intel now that any token response to a serious squadron threat is a waste of time when considering that worst-case scenario of full squadron opposition. That 134 can destroy 56 points worth of ship just as readily as it would've ignored or destroyed the 56 worth of squadrons, and it still adds its own battery fire to whatever solutions you've come up with.

Well, I think there are some other benefits. Yes, a ship adds one more activation during the round - at the cost of a weaker deployment position - but it also adds x shields and y hull for undefended bombers to plow through. Right?

Can 134 points worth of bombers absolutely roll a single ship? Yeah! Definitely! Yet if my response to prevent that is <insert 56 points of squadrons here> I'm probably failing to realize the reality of the 134-points arrayed against me. There are so many possibilities with Intel now that any token response to a serious squadron threat is a waste of time when considering that worst-case scenario of full squadron opposition. That 134 can destroy 56 points worth of ship just as readily as it would've ignored or destroyed the 56 worth of squadrons, and it still adds its own battery fire to whatever solutions you've come up with.

I think its more that, as a Rebel Player, I have almost 0 Respect, thusfar, for the Raider that clouds my way of thinking... An Extra Raider is one Battery shot away from Death at all times, and sometimes, I'll get that shot incidentially when I wouldn't have anything else to shoot with... But its a bias that I have to try to put aside when I'm in these discussions, and quite often, that's difficult.

Like I said, always benefits back and forth - but there's something to be said to putting everything on the table, and I only get to play every 2 Weeks, and as a league organiser, is often giving up tablespace to others anyway So I'm definately conceading the possibility of seeing Ship-Only lists... There is a Local Tournament on Saturday here at Myth Games, and a few of my League's players are attending (but I cannot), and I know they'll be looking at the Full Squadron Route themselves, so we'll see what happens to that meta when they turn it on its head.

My Meta, at TheSentryBox, has oft included a fair squadron component from the Get-Go. So I guess more than anything, we're in Heaven feeling like we're ahead of the pack, rather than playing Catch-Up

Independance was a happy benefit for me - I was finding that my B-Wings were going to stomp whatever ship flew their way - Raider, GSD, VSD... Didn't matter, completely stomped... Problem was, it was stomped and then the B-Wings were out of touch for the rest of the Battle... So Opponents started sliding down the scale, eventually breaking down into smaller ships - so I had multiple Raiders or GSDs arrayed against me instead of ISDs and VSDs.

Indy's letting me kill a ship, and then spend a turn to Slingshot B-Wings clean across the Table again, and further annoy opponents.

Dras. I love you. You know that?

I am not willing to commit to any line of thinking yet. Only the Sith speak in absolutes. Yes, I have not loved Independence but dammit! I'm gonna give it another shot, based mostly on what you just wrote. I thought Ruthless Strategists were dumb, but you know what? I think they might be a good answer to get around Escort and plink on Jan!

Nothing is off the table for me. NOTHING!!

You know, while I can't speak for R1 and Jud (but since they're getting the brunt of the hate for having a controversial opinion!) I don't think they are entirely committed to one line of thinking either. Merely being gaming philosophers and arguing a point, because that is how we all improve!

Independence is one of those titles that can really change up a meta. It requires some great Squadron skills which currently I think Fickle and Dras can accomplish.

Rogue is amazing when combined with intel even if it is obvious. Then again Jan Ors with X-Wings is an obvious thing.

I still think that my light squadron compliment of x2 TIE Advanced, Dengar, Mithel is a great setup. One does not need to worry about Jan negating a ton of damage. Just push damage through and when Mithel kills Jan you should have weakened the X-Wings enough to deal with. When you add that on with being within medium to close range of a ship that can support the furball bad things happen. This is how I deal with Jan Ors.

Good squadron thoughts. I always hate trying to decide.

I think I will take 134 of squads to tournament in Indy.... Btw. Will IFF be there?

I, like you guys on IFF, just like getting the Discussion out there...

Nothing gets to me more than a discussion that centres about "This is Broken", "This is Wrong", "You're doing it Wrong."...

There are so many variables in how we do things in the game - it is a very well oiled system at this point - further waves, I don't feel, won't have the same fundamental shifts that Wave 2 has given us - the expansion to Large Ships, 400pts, etc, has really set the stage... Everything from this point on will be options.

Discounting things out, even things such as the Raider and VSD, is a recipe for Disaster in the long run - because you will underestimate it when someone finds "the thing" on how they should use it (as a counter to the attitude of how it should be used.)

If anything, the prevaling thought about "An ISD costs 134 points" spurred me to take out my ISD and 2 VSDs as a fleet, all as -I variants as a learning experience... Gunnery Teams are a thing because too many people (mostly rightly) keep their fleet together for mutual support - finding a fleet that can operate semi-indepdendantly of each other is a bit of a misnomer, but if you can stretch things out, you take Gunnery Teams away as a big upgrade...

Exploiting that, for a mere, y'know 7-24 point advantage, depending on GT implementation, is far more difficult, even to the point on wether its worthwhile...

I souped up a "Squadron Support" AFMK-IIA that was purely designed to plough into a Furball that was being set up with my Rebel Squadrons... Packing the -A model, Ruthless Strategists, and Gallant Haven - its there to cause havoc - and be a fire magnet, so my other Rebel Ships can get positioning on Imperials - and nullify/destroy their squadrons to clear through...

Now if I can only get a chance to really test it out before our Store Championship - which I may be running now

Under-discussed:

The correlation between fleet speed and the possibility of flying naked when it comes to squadrons. I think the following will be what shakes out as dominant potential positions Nash equilibria:

• Medium spend on squadrons but with massive focus on anti-squadron ability. For instance, with all the discussion of 134 vs. 56 kinds of questions, I still don't think most Imperial builds would be thrilled to see Rebels show up with like 6 X-Wings and nothing else if they had gone heavy with squadrons.
• Zero spend on squadrons in fleets with fast ships. You know what one of the best defenses is to squadrons? Fly right past them and don't give no <expletive deleted>s. If you are cranking around the board at speed 4, only A-Wings or YT-2400s and the like are going to reliably keep up with you at all, or maybe a really well positioned Rhymer Ball. Maybe I see this more because I'm still screwing around with a CR90 swarm, but man, when people take things like B-Wings or Firesprays I just kind of smile.
• Heavy squadrons. I do think this is for real. Exceptionally real. Like a genuinely uncomfortable and awkward level of realness. Especially if people avoid the slow squadron trap.

Some additional notes:

Independence feels like a trap to me. It's great against someone who took a fleet which is slow enough that you can reliably bus B-wings around with a 4 move, then have them move again and attack next turn. As a person who hates flying at any speed less than 3, this feels like a good way to never get to attack me for an entire game, or maybe once on the initial pass. I just can't get onboard with speed 2 squadrons, given that eventually they need to try to use that to attack someone. I feel like you will hit hard counters with this.

I still think people are greatly undervaluing Wing Commanders. I may believe this because my ideal command stack is probably NAV NAV NAV NAV NAV NAV, see my previous predilection for not liking to fly slowly and to be able to fly unpredictably, and this lets me have an alternate stack of SQUAD SQUAD SQUAD SQUAD SQUAD SQUAD that I can swap to at will, which is basically hog heaven for a speed demon who wants to be able to alpha strike things.

Some additional notes:

Independence feels like a trap to me. It's great against someone who took a fleet which is slow enough that you can reliably bus B-wings around with a 4 move, then have them move again and attack next turn. As a person who hates flying at any speed less than 3, this feels like a good way to never get to attack me for an entire game, or maybe once on the initial pass. I just can't get onboard with speed 2 squadrons, given that eventually they need to try to use that to attack someone. I feel like you will hit hard counters with this.

In my experience, there's one big advantage to the B-Wings, compared to an enemy fleet that's fast...

... Bloodlust.

You can be as fast as you want to be... But you'll also want to be near me, in order to do Damage to me. Very few fleets are designed to be both Long Range and Speedy, seemingly, Ackbar'd TLRC'd Corvettes as the obvious exception...

But Metas are very different in what is good and what is not... Personally, I don't like the Wing Commander, because I do enjoy the challenge of setting my dials correctly...

... That and my Wing Commander is usually Adar Tallon or Raymus Antilles, depending on what sort of ship he's on...

Man, I had so much fun last week slinging a B-Wing Speed 4, then with a second frigate command, speed 2, cleanly across the table to put a crit on an ISD whose rear shields were down...

Dash not worth a mention?

So your Raider slides up and says shoot me or my ISD. May gunnery teamed AFII will shoot both thank you

I like wing commander, you should have seen my opponents face the first time I changed a nav to a squadron command !

Dras, can I buy your wing commander card!

Dash is good. Listening back to it, "Jan Ors" seemed to replace a variety of words like "squadrons", "bombers", and even just "intel" in that final section. An example: "Well, if they have Jan then I'm not stopping it with 50 points of squadrons." Lobrad should go back and edit every Jan mention in the last 45 minutes out and replace it with "ship threatening squadrons".

Speed is great, Rein, but I do think the dreaded cloud around a carrier can be scary if for some reason you're forced to get in there.

Dash is good. Listening back to it, "Jan Ors" seemed to replace a variety of words like "squadrons", "bombers", and even just "intel" in that final section. An example: "Well, if they have Jan then I'm not stopping it with 50 points of squadrons." Lobrad should go back and edit every Jan mention in the last 45 minutes out and replace it with "ship threatening squadrons".

Speed is great, Rein, but I do think the dreaded cloud around a carrier can be scary if for some reason you're forced to get in there.