Link: http://www.wwpd.net/2016/01/intensify-forward-firepower-xvi-walken.html
Welcome back for Intensify Forward Firepower Episode XVI: Attack Pattern Squadron, Go Now! Drunk Tarkin, Dano, and Skyshuffler are joined once again by R1H4 to talk squadrons. They kick things off with a trip down memory lane to discuss what squadrons meant to them when the game first came out before diving into everything squadrons currently have to offer. If you love or hate squadrons, this episode is for you!
Wow-wuh!
oo-RAW!
Thanks guys for yet another one.
Sweet. Looking forward to listening to it tomorrow!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
yay, work just became rad
haha if minimal squadrons are useless (apart from Jan+3x's), and lots of squadrons will always trump no squadrons. Doesn't that mean that you now always need a decent amount of squadrons, that can fill both roles of anti squadron and anti-ship?
It's a fun cycle, isn't it Leowulf?
Hope it's clear, because I think we said it at least twice, that we were only talking about the imperial situation (task-specific squadrons) when we spun so far down the "oh yeah well what about this?" rabbit hole that we ended up at zero squadrons. And yes, once you arrive at "I'll take no squadrons" then you're now exposed to all-bomber builds.
It's impossible to put it succinctly, which is why the end turned into the what-if fest that it was, but I do believe that you can lose the game not by losing your last squadron but by burning your last ship hull point. If that's the case then I'll buy one last GSD over 56 points worth of squadrons since their sole realistic objective would be to serve as a speedbump to the 134 points of squadrons. Now I have an extra ship for the bombers to chew through.
Ultimately ... squadron game got amazing in wave 2. Bring em if you want.
It's a fun cycle, isn't it Leowulf?
Well I'm saying the cycle MAY have come to an end with Wave 2? It's like, Wave 2 = Squadrons all day. Assuming as I do that ~100 equal points of well-spent squadrons > equal points of more hull and also > minimal squadrons (because of the game-changer - intel).
Edit to add in some reasoning against the above post.
You're basically saying that equal points of ship is worth more than equal points of squadrons, and I say the opposite.
Reasons For Ships Only:
Ships hull are often how the game is determined.
Ships have AA attacks and can fire at squadrons
Extra activation
Squadrons often add opportunity cost of having to take squadron commands and/or upgrade slots
"extra speedbump"
Reasons for Squadron Heavy:
You can stack firepower on one target with a large squadron force very easily.
Destroying ships isn't the only determining factor (objectives)
Squadron strikes often out range ship attacks
"Extra speedbump" doesn't always work because they can choose where they focus their firepower, aka not your speedbump.
Squadron attacks dilute battery dice into multiple attacks making ship defense tokens much less useful
So I guess you could go either way really from a theorycrafting perspective, the difference comes in where you decide to go all hull. If no one wants to take minimal squadrons because lots of squadrons now make it obsolete (intel), you're only going up against your main weakness, heavy squadrons. I think that's essentially my point haha
Edited by Leowulf
Yes. Absolutely. I think people should end on whatever seat on the logic (ha) carousel they prefer, because your are just going to go round and round otherwise.
Just started listening. . . That intro. . .
I know. You were thinking for months that you wished we'd started off the ep like that. Your prayers have been answered.
I know. You were thinking for months that you wished we'd started off the ep like that. Your prayers have been answered.
Hmmmm 35 minutes in, let's see if Mithel & Dengar gets mentioned
My Train of thought is going to run everywhere here...
Its all about potentials.
Yes, not taking 50pts of Squadrons and taking another Ship shifts those potentials between players, somewhat. The Ship taker gains another Activation, but depending on what ship it is, and other situations, they might find that ship gone as an adjunct to another activation.
Giving a Squadron player free reign on what they'll do only benefits them... Even TIE Fighters without Bomber have a 50/50 chance of knocking down a shield... Two Shields from something you want to kill isn't a naffer - and it can draw away Redirects like Crazy, especially in Mirrors against Imperials with copious amounts of those...
It is a cycle you can easily get yourself into. I do personally believe that their are more potentials gained by Running Squadrons - even a token Imperial Force (which, in that case, acts like roving Blue Die vs Ships if it can't appreciably effect the Enemy's Squadrons choice). And if you do happen to keep them spread out, perhaps even dedicating 1 or 2 to each enemy ship, their swallowing of Squadron Fire is almost bearable for a turn or two...
Granted, if the Imperial is getting up to Gladiator level, and they have the Gladiator spare, they might be better than it... But I personally feel that Raiders just havn't captured people's thoughts on how to use them yet, and they all end up being far too disposable to be something to rely on as an extra ship.
As it is, its a game of points - and the points will always go back and forth with the Die rolls... What was a fantastic choice one week won't be the next (I took 8 X-Wings last week and didn't kill a single enemy fighter, losing them to Interceptors in protracted battles... Go Figure) and that's all on how you die roll.
Part of me is reminded of the old KaMB death Chart. Roll a Die to see how you Die.
As an Aside, The TIE Advanced is almost directly comparable to the X-Wing given a single consideration - it is the best MultiRole of the Imperials... 1 less point loses you that 1 anti-Squadron Die, but gains you 1 Speed, and although it does not have Bomber, the Black Die is just as useful as a Red die versus Shields... At that point, a Crit on a Bomber Die is just as useful as a Hit, and how many Red Dies throw those Double Reds when you want them? For that luxury, you have to put up with a whole other Blank it seems.
What we're starting to see here in my Meta of Hothgary, is Dengar was Taken, and now Dengar is being set aside for one or two Jumpmasters... Because his ability, the Counter +1, isn't being focused on. Its Nice, but you always should try to strive to not be shot at in the first place. So with that ability out of the Way, Dengar starts losing some of his shine - so the Juicy-Juicy intel comes in on a first or second Jumpmaster, and even if counter is your thing, it has counter itself that Dengar does not.
I mean, at the Sentry Box last weekend, you guys would have been floored to watch the 134 point Rhymer Ball, which was being Spearheaded by Three Victory-Is with Slaved Turrets go through an ISD Christmas Tree, which had brought its own Rhymer Ball. Both players commented that getting Intel to spread around would have been much more important than The added Counter.
For myself, I'm the mostly Rebel player, and I've been mixing up Jan and regular HWKs... I've been finding that Spike Damage of 2+ just wasn't happening often enough, so I took the 7 pt Tax, invested another point into it, and took Gallant Haven for the first time in Months... Honestly, the best of both words might be the way for me to go - but I'm still investing in B-Wings rather than Ys en masse.
Independance isn't just for the Opening Move to go and Kill a Ship... I mean, its great for that, great for getting in front of a Demolisher and pasting it across Hyperspace... Independance, especially on a Boosted Comms MonCal, then lets those B-Wings Reposition to Continue to be Relevant Next Turn... Far too many times I've set my B-Wing Minefield out and had it do its Job... But then spend 3-4 turns doing nothing else to try to pick up a secondary Target... With Indy, now they can do that...
Urgh. I really am rambling now.
The big problem you have without running squadrons is you loose to bombers. So you take a token amount of squadrons as a shield. Unfortunately a tokenistic squadron screen will do almost nothing against a well turned or all in squadron/bomber list. This is from the perspective of a squadron heavy meta, talking 100-134 points of squadrons.
No a single all ship list can perform vs squadrons. If you in a squadron meta you need more than just a screen. In time squadrons are going to be supreme.
I'll write more up but there was a lot left out of this Ep and i really think this comes from a lack of experience with squadrons.
B-Wings don't work?. . . This sentiment still wierd me out. . . My B-Wings dominated my area.
Glad to hear it! They definitely aren't working here.
Sure, and we're always the first to admit that our opinions are through our experiences only. I've never ever seen Gallant Haven make a bit of difference either in my own games or in my local meta. But I believe people when they say it makes all the difference for them!
I strongly advise anyone to disagree with anything we say, with no sarcasm.
I used Gallant Haven last night and it did its job by keeping my opponent's squadrons at bay. It's great at that. . . And not much else. . . I wish the MkiiA had a squadron value of 3.. .
Hey guys, 50 minutes in, really enjoying it, thanks as always!
On the "how to deal with Jan Ors" dilemma, try running a Gladiator II (gasp!) demolisher with ruthless strategists. Its only 10 points dedicated to anti squad assuming you are taking demolisher anyway. If Jans Xwing ball gets anywhere (blue dice) range near it, it should take her out in one activation. The accompanying Xwings will regret the encounter also.
That is evil genius level right there. I... actually really want to try that.
Also Raider I w/ Impetuous and Ruthless Strategists.
I love this game. Already rethinking so much, mere hours after releasing this episode!
Are you guys driving the Ruthless Strategists with TIE Bombers? Wait, that didn't work. Advanced maybe? Tough to imagine with fighters. What squadron we talking?
Edited by DrunkTarkin