I am starting an F&D campaign this weekend and I was going to have the first 3 sessions all about learning the new system, obtaining parts for lightsabers, and by the last session, the knowledge to build them.

My question is this: My PC's are starting at half Knight level (base character + 75 XP), in doing so they have a few more skills than if they were to start out at the very beginning...3 of the 5 players are lightsaber based builds (ataru, makashi, soresu) and I know 2 of the players are very excited to start using lightsabers. Should I give the group a handful of training lightsabers to start with so they can at least inflict some damage with them, or are the training sabers not strong enough to fight with?

The base training lightsaber is base damage 6, no crit, and only can be used to inflict stun damage with no levels in breach or sunder.

Is this to under-powered? Should I add a level or two of pierce to compensate for lack of breach? Just want some opinions.

Thanks!

A training saber is just a basic lightsaber hilt with the training emitter attachment. If you actually wanted the players to build their lightsabers from gathered components, that would defeat the purpose. Also, as they only deal stun damage, you have a lack of lethal options, although that might not be a problem for some.

You have the ancient sword option, or just the regular old blasters and vibroswords. I made a skew of homebrewed weapons that utilize the Lightsaber skill to broaden the options a little, myself.

The training lightsaber was meant for usage by PCs that are built on just the standard starting XP, as it gives those characters that opted to start in one of the LS Form specs a weapon that is keyed to those specs and the Lightsaber skill, in particular those that offer fairly early/easy access to the Reflect talent. Since it's a weapon meant for starting tier PCs, it's going to be underpowered, much like a blaster rifle is underpowered in comparison to a light repeating blaster.

That said, it is at it's core a basic lightsaber hilt with the training emitter attachment, meaning that as soon as the PCs get their hands on actual lightsaber crystals (two of the published adventures thus far have such crystals as the end reward, and both are written to be usable as a group's first adventure) they can swap out the training emitter and have a fully-functioning lightsaber with Breach 1 and Sunder. In "Hidden Depths" (the adventure included with the FaD GM Kit), it even mentions that if PCs have already built/acquired their own lightsaber hilts, they could very well be walking into the adventure's final encounter with full-blown lightsabers, which in turn makes the major adversary a far less daunting challenge. In "Forgotten Lore" (the Beta book adventure), the crystals received aren't quite as good as Ilum crystals (crit rating is 3 and they've only got half as many mods), but they're still perfectly serviceable as my initial FaD campaign aptly demonstrated.

I am planning on using the beginner game and the expansion as the first 2-3 sessions for everyone to get their lightsaber components as well as get them built. I initially thought that it would not be fair to the group if I only allowed 2 or 3 people out of the group of 5 to have training sabers, even though those 2-3 players have specializations that are based on the lightsaber skill. (ataru striker, makashi duelist, soresu defender)

After reading through some of the character folios in the BG, I saw some of them already have lightsabers, but not all of them. Do you guys think that giving some, but not all, of the group training sabers to be unbalanced or unfair to the others who don't get them?

I wouldn't give any of them Training Sabers to start with.

I'd then have their first encounter together be running from something into an old building whose ground floor collapses. They then find themselves in an old Jedi training chamber with a rack of Training Sabers on the wall. Those that want them, can pick one up and those that don't, can leave them. Then it's a player decision, not a GM decision.

Much easier to make them do all the heavy lifting. Just give them opportunities and chide them if they fail to take advantage.

I wouldn't give any of them Training Sabers to start with.

I'd then have their first encounter together be running from something into an old building whose ground floor collapses. They then find themselves in an old Jedi training chamber with a rack of Training Sabers on the wall. Those that want them, can pick one up and those that don't, can leave them. Then it's a player decision, not a GM decision.

Much easier to make them do all the heavy lifting. Just give them opportunities and chide them if they fail to take advantage.

Since I am running the BG, they won't be getting to the Dawn Temple until the first session is almost completely over and I am having a really hard time coming up with some way of finding them before that.

My characters are going to start out in the University of Reles and end up sitting in on a series of lectures from Hethan Romund. They end up becoming interested in her talks and come back for the final lecture but she is nowhere to be found. When they investigate they will find clues that point to her work at the Dawn Temple and will go there to try and find her.

I tried to come up with something a bit more exciting, but each of my PC's are so different it was hard for me to have all of them be in the same place at the same time and the "she called us at the last second" thing sounded too forced in my opinion.

I have a 40 year old Cerean who is an throwback to an Indiana Jones-type character, a 19 year old angsty type teen who is teetering on the light and the dark after his parents died, a 26 year old pathfinder who lives in solitude and is one with nature (high survival skills), a mystic who has amnesia and was picked up by the Cerean after getting knocked out on a ship months ago, and the last PC hasn't gotten his background to me yet so I just told him to end his backstory at this university.

I wouldn't give any of them Training Sabers to start with.

I'd then have their first encounter together be running from something into an old building whose ground floor collapses. They then find themselves in an old Jedi training chamber with a rack of Training Sabers on the wall. Those that want them, can pick one up and those that don't, can leave them. Then it's a player decision, not a GM decision.

Much easier to make them do all the heavy lifting. Just give them opportunities and chide them if they fail to take advantage.

Since I am running the BG, they won't be getting to the Dawn Temple until the first session is almost completely over and I am having a really hard time coming up with some way of finding them before that.

My characters are going to start out in the University of Reles and end up sitting in on a series of lectures from Hethan Romund. They end up becoming interested in her talks and come back for the final lecture but she is nowhere to be found. When they investigate they will find clues that point to her work at the Dawn Temple and will go there to try and find her.

I tried to come up with something a bit more exciting, but each of my PC's are so different it was hard for me to have all of them be in the same place at the same time and the "she called us at the last second" thing sounded too forced in my opinion.

I have a 40 year old Cerean who is an throwback to an Indiana Jones-type character, a 19 year old angsty type teen who is teetering on the light and the dark after his parents died, a 26 year old pathfinder who lives in solitude and is one with nature (high survival skills), a mystic who has amnesia and was picked up by the Cerean after getting knocked out on a ship months ago, and the last PC hasn't gotten his background to me yet so I just told him to end his backstory at this university.

If they're running around a University, finding a display with a bunch of training sabers is perfectly reasonable... Especially if they're prominently displayed as something other than training sabers (Average LS or K. Lore check to identify them correctly). Even better would be they're in a partitioned off area as part of an exhibit that's either being set up or taken down. They could be chased by security guards and stumble into the area, to give them a bit of urgency...

Just be creative.

Oooh, very nice! I will definitely have to do something like that! I think I'm just getting burnt out by all the reading I've had to do, along with other stress. Thanks again!

If I were you Ender07, I would not allowed them to start with a lightsaber specialization.

If I were you Ender07, I would not allowed them to start with a lightsaber specialization.

That doesn't sound fair. It eliminates a good portion of the specializations available to players.

Ender07, on 06 Jan 2016 - 9:07 PM, said:Ender07, on 06 Jan 2016 - 9:07 PM, said:

vilainn6, on 06 Jan 2016 - 9:03 PM, said:vilainn6, on 06 Jan 2016 - 9:03 PM, said:

If I were you Ender07, I would not allowed them to start with a lightsaber specialization.

That doesn't sound fair. It eliminates a good portion of the specializations available to players.

Only a 1/3 of the options and it is just for the first few sessions.

You find that realistic that someone who has never see or handle a lightsaber or receive some training from another Jedi know Makashi or Soresu? Sure they can have learn it with a Holocron before the start of your campaign but it defeat the purpose of running an adventure like the beginner box..

That's actually not a bad idea, to disallow the LS Form specs from being picked as an initial spec, given the set-up that the PCs have had no prior experience with the Jedi or their ways (or at least that's what I'm getting from the OP's initial post). Luke Skywalker certainly didn't start out with a LS Form spec, which makes sense as he'd never seen a lightsaber until Obi-Wan handed him Anakin's old 'saber.

Yes, it does mean that the PCs won't start out with those various cool LS Form spec talents, but if they've never so much as seen a lightsaber prior to the campaign's start, then it makes sense that they'd be very much like Finn in TFA, in that they'd only the barest idea of how to use such a weapon the first time they'd pick one up, so no ranks in the Lightsaber skill to begin with.

That's actually not a bad idea, to disallow the LS Form specs from being picked as an initial spec, given the set-up that the PCs have had no prior experience with the Jedi or their ways (or at least that's what I'm getting from the OP's initial post). Luke Skywalker certainly didn't start out with a LS Form spec, which makes sense as he'd never seen a lightsaber until Obi-Wan handed him Anakin's old 'saber.

Yes, it does mean that the PCs won't start out with those various cool LS Form spec talents, but if they've never so much as seen a lightsaber prior to the campaign's start, then it makes sense that they'd be very much like Finn in TFA, in that they'd only the barest idea of how to use such a weapon the first time they'd pick one up, so no ranks in the Lightsaber skill to begin with.

I usually don't agree with omitting talent trees, but this particular case makes so much sense as it removes that expectation to be handed a lightsaber immediately. The only possible exception I could see being made would extend to Shi-cho Knight, which is actually designed to represent traditional sword fighting techniques and is actually really useful to none-force sensitive melee fighters. Even so, I would only really allow that exception if NPC's are going to be using parry a lot themselves.

Otherwise yeah, it would completely remove that expection to have to find a lightsaber early on and make characters build a career first, other than being a Jedi. That way all the characters can pick it up as a second specialisation and learn togethe, while removing a unreasonable expectation to be handed a glowstick just because they had invested extensively in what is often an extremely limited career set.

More effective however, is to explain first. e.g. "No one here is a Jedi, or has met one aside from myths and legends, aside from destiny tugging on you. Thus the knowledge they had so far is inaccessable. Only your own talents and experiences have sustained you thus far. But don't worry; you will learn the path in time.. ^__^"

Perhaps, if one is disallowing the LS Form spec trees at start, perhaps as a way to make up for it is that if the PCs do later opt to buy into those specs, then when purchasing the first one they get a 10 XP discount on the purchase cost? I suspect being able to buy the tree cheaper (especially if it's in-career for you) would make the inability to start out in those trees an easier pill to swallow.

I honestly don't think that omitting them will be an option. If I go back after all the months of anticipation and tell my players that even though they have been building and tweaking their builds for weeks, now 2 days before the first session, they aren't allowed to use a lightsaber specialization.

I know everyone is being helpful and I am not trying to dismiss anyone in any brash manner, I just know my players and if I show up saying that all their work, backstories, and everything for half the party isn't going to work...well that just isn't an option I want to apply to the situation.

Since we are starting at half Knight level I am having them all explain where they got some of their skills from. Whether it was from focusing and/or training in some other form, such as swordfighting, martial arts, or mediation, it all depends on what skills they chose to buff up a bit. I feel if they can explain why they can excel more at some form of fighting then it would make sense that when they pickup a lightsaber they at least have some knowledge of a fighting style.

My concern lies mostly with when to give them these training sabers and I think Braendig had the kind of idea I was looking for...more storyline based ideas on how to integrate them.

Well, if the characters in question have backstories that account for having received actual Jedi training, then I'd say just let them have training lightsabers at the outset, only re-labeled as "junk 'sabers" or something similar, in that they're cobbled together from less-than-ideal parts and using barely workable focusing crystals.

Once they've undertaken an adventure to acquire proper lightsaber crystals, perhaps have them also obtain the info on building a proper lightsaber so that they can transition those "junk 'sabers" into true lightsabers.

Well, if the characters in question have backstories that account for having received actual Jedi training, then I'd say just let them have training lightsabers at the outset, only re-labeled as "junk 'sabers" or something similar, in that they're cobbled together from less-than-ideal parts and using barely workable focusing crystals.

Once they've undertaken an adventure to acquire proper lightsaber crystals, perhaps have them also obtain the info on building a proper lightsaber so that they can transition those "junk 'sabers" into true lightsabers.

It's less that they have had official Jedi training and is more like they have had training similar to the fighting style they are going to be learning. So none of them would necessarily have lightsabers or knowledge as to how and make them just yet, that will be acquired during the second session.

I am just trying to figure out if giving them training sabers would be worth it in the first session (if they recognize what they are KB Lore check?) and then have them either convert them or build their own after they find crystals.

Keeping the Peace offers some ideas for starting as a Soresu Defender. First bit of advice is simply temper the player's expectations. Second, many of the ideas is simply the player somehow had a tutor or found information on the style, but one stands out: the player doesn't know Soresu as the Jedi and Sith knew it, so much as he developed or learned a style that shares roots and philosophies with Soresu.

A Soresu Defender PC may be intuitively using the Force to guide his blade the same way the Soresu masters of old did, or a Niman Disciple PC may be an acolyte of an obscure Force temple that practices a sword style similar to the Lightsaber form of Niman. Repeat with the other forms.

You are right Ender 07. You opened the door, now it is too late to close it. I just finded funny that you allow them a lightsaber specialization but come with the issue of what to give them since you dont want them to start with that kind of weapon. You would have make your life more easier by saying "no but in 2 session you will be able to buy it and gain your flashy weapon."

As for your issue, Your idea of making your players find lightsaber at the university is good but I would replace them by Ancient Sword. It sound more realistic to find old rusty weapon of another time in an university than training lightsaber.

I honestly don't think that omitting them will be an option. If I go back after all the months of anticipation and tell my players that even though they have been building and tweaking their builds for weeks, now 2 days before the first session, they aren't allowed to use a lightsaber specialization.

I know everyone is being helpful and I am not trying to dismiss anyone in any brash manner, I just know my players and if I show up saying that all their work, backstories, and everything for half the party isn't going to work...well that just isn't an option I want to apply to the situation.

Since we are starting at half Knight level I am having them all explain where they got some of their skills from. Whether it was from focusing and/or training in some other form, such as swordfighting, martial arts, or mediation, it all depends on what skills they chose to buff up a bit. I feel if they can explain why they can excel more at some form of fighting then it would make sense that when they pickup a lightsaber they at least have some knowledge of a fighting style.

My concern lies mostly with when to give them these training sabers and I think Braendig had the kind of idea I was looking for...more storyline based ideas on how to integrate them.

*Everyone else kind of has the comprimise angle covered, so this is the devil's advocate opinion of uncompromise. XD Feel free to use or discard as you like.

If they are miffed because they have been building a set of jedi specialisations rather then a character, then I would be concerned. Thats what session Zeros are for, to set the expectation so that when you guys setup at the table for real, everyone's expectations are fairly even. So what you have been developing a character who's a master with a rare and exotic weapon? I could do that in less then 10 minutes, making specialisations to go with characters with extra 75xp isn't hard work in the slightest. Though one way of working around that might be to have one character be a mentor type to hire the rest for this particular endeavour.

Just realistically speaking I hate training lightsabers* as a crutch for a problem that shouldn't really exist. They either should be familar with being a Jedi (thus should be aged appropriately and have a lightsaber) or they shouldn't (and use blasters/blades/raw wit.) because I can't remember a compelling story where a fresh faced character had a familiarisation around an exotic weapon that the empire had been stamping out for 20 years straight, thus everyone should be learning this lost art with the same application that a fresh faced protagonist always learns his craft. Otherwise there's no meaningful development or grand discovery discover, since otherwise everyone somehow has an intimate knowledge of a religion enough to be wielding one already does so without the quest for discovery. Because they already have it in their hands. Am I making sense? I find it hard to see a heros tale, when they have already started off as a hero, that top 1%.

Ultimately, the choice is yours but in all honesty I imagine your campaign will be much enriched by taking things a step back further and going for a rogue band of smugglers/researchers/whatever they decide upon as their core identity, feeling a calling and going on an adventure based on that feeling and uncover a lost religion, and a great evil along the way. It will make taking that next big step, from pleb to a living hero's tale that much more epic.

* I think they are ultimately a half formed copout. 20 years of empire oppression, Yet somehow a lightsaber like training emitter is perfectly legal when the art to craft these things have been lost? What? That being said, it's a personal issue I have with them. Not one relevant to the discussion. XD

In my upcoming F&D game I wasn't going to allow lightsaber specs and started to explain this to my players..

Not an issue for most of my players, but one in particular wants to have guardian as his primary class, the only two specs he's interested in is Soresu and Aggressor. He plans on either taking Warden or Protector, someday, depending on if events in the story steer him towards a darker or lighter path.

So the nature of "in class" and "out of class" kind of force his hand into starting with Soresu.

My solution is to allow "lightsaber" specs.. but not allow them to take the lightsaber skill or talents that apply to the lightsaber form like reflect, parry, or the appropriate technique; until they get proper training downtime (which should be in the first 3-4 sessions).

For what it's worth, with the Force and Destiny game I'm currently running, I had two players that wanted to be ex-Jedi Initiates that were also siblings (and knew it) that survived Order 66, with one of them being a Guardian/Soresu Defender, the other a Mystic/Seer as she wanted to focus more on Force usage. The two players worked out a solid backstory that fit with the general theme of the campaign I was aiming for, one in which it made perfect sense that their characters (who are in their mid-20's) would have any sort of knowledge of the Jedi, and the Guardian's player even going so far as to not start with a training lightsaber as a mark of putting his Jedi heritage to the side. It was and still is a fairly major story arc of this character coming to terms with him being a Jedi, especially now that he's acquired a proper 'saber crystal and has built a hilt using parts of the Ancient Sword that he started play with.

Now, the Mystic at one point simply wanted to grab Makashi Duelist with no preamble or explanation beyond "I need to be better at melee because I suck at using Force powers!" I vetoed her buying that spec, as there was no real justification for her suddenly just having this knowledge, especially for a Form that even during the height of the Jedi Order was fairly obscure given the lack of 'saber-vs-'saber dueling. After a brief talk, she agreed and recognized she'd be better at the Force if she started spending her XP on boosting up her Force powers (namely Move and Influence), which has served her quite well as she's Force Rating 2 and not that far off from reaching Force Rating 3.

I am really starting to doubt myself and how I am starting the beginning of this campaign now...

So I understand that it would make sense to not allow lightsaber specializations right away, but I know part of the reason my group was so gung-ho to start F&D was the lightsaber combat and Force powers. They really wanted to start at Knight level, but I didn't want to just start what felt like at mid-story to me. I wanted to have them come together as a group, build their lightsabers, and start to learn more about the Force with either a mentor or holocron.

We came to the compromise that instead of starting at the "very beginning" with just base character creation XP, they would start with an additional 75xp to show that they have already tried to either expand their knowledge into certain areas of the Force or something like that. I did want them all to give a good background and explain why they had a certain level of skill in certain areas by explaining it through a story (martial arts, swordfighting, etc.)

Now that I am getting some of their builds, it looks like some of the people with lightsaber builds have put 1-2 levels into their lightsaber skill even though they have never picked up an actual lightsaber...but if they could explain that they have used something similar for many years then it would be more plausible to approve it.

I have run into problems with my group on occasion because some are more combat oriented and other are more RP oriented. If I take this off the table at this juncture, I am worried that it would make the people effected mad and would not want to continue the game because they already had compromised by getting to half Knight level.

I have had a lot on my plate recently so creating a whole new universe, along with reading the CRB, and everything else wasn't plausible for me right now so I chose to use the BG to start things off. I figured I would change it up a bit, like make them all get there for separate reasons, meet the mentor in the story, find out why she disappeared, and band together to find her. It has been burning me out trying to think very creatively with everything going on right now so that's why I was asking about the training saber issue.

It's like... Have you ever stared at a word so long it kind of fell apart? And you think, "Is that how it's spelled? Wait, is that even a real WORD?!"

Over-analyzing things has a tendency to cause problems to sprout to the forefront that aren't really that bad.

How many players have lightsaber specs again? Maybe read the F&D pre-generated characters for some suggestions: at least one is handed a lightsaber by the mentor lady being rescued, and the other finds one and is approached by her after. Make modifications to the situations and suggest them to the players. "PC 1 discovered a lost training saber dropped during the Clone Wars." "PC 2 has a sword passed down through the generations that was used by the Jedi during the Great Galactic War." "PC 3 was gifted a rare [Jedi blade/training saber] by the mentor."

How did they get their ranks in Lightsaber? Practice on their own, natural talent, and guidance from the Force. The mentor pointed them towards some old hermit sword master who seemed to have a bit of familiarity with the Jedi forms. The family of one PC have long since practiced in a sword style that has some eyebrow raising similarities to the way the Jedi used theirs.

Not too difficult.

The training saber is a weapon for subduing someone. It certainly has it's place, but that place really isn't on a battle field. The ancient sword costs a little less than a training saber and still uses the light saber skill. Given that even having a training saber is going to pull Imperial attention as soon as it get's lit up, having the ancient sword as a combat weapon is probably a better idea for neophytes trying to learn.

Also, you've stated that one of the goals is to find the components to build a saber and you're left with either making the training sabers have an integrated emitter so it can't be used to build a saber, or letting anyone who has one skip that whole section of the adventure.

I wouldn't give anyone a training saber - but if they want to take the $$ option and buy one, I probably also wouldn't stop them - 600cr of your starting cash for a very sub par weapon is iffy - you can pick up a stun baton that does the same damage with the option to add the active Stun quality to it.