What threads like this need are case examples. If someone put up some example game and situations we could at least work the problem rather than pick a side and complain about the other side.

Don't look at me. I've got a one year old. I'm lucky to get games in let alone photo and post them. Where's Lyareas? Have any textbook Akbar vs squad match ups to show?

If someone has a lot of times we could play by committee. Two threads, each side of one game and majority choice of moves. Should disagreement prevail, the game can split and two parallel games get run. Again, for all of you without 1-year olds at home.

I'll add something:

In Wave 1 the AFb was... pretty much the best ship... boy could it dance!

But look at all the new crap wave 2 gave us... raiders, tractor beams, firesprays, Intel, and those huge speed 3 ISDs and whatnot.

3 reds out the side at long range, and not much more at close... that's no longer enough.

With Ackbar you get 5. That's a strong boost there, but red dice are fickle - this is known. All Ackbar does is make AFs competitive.

(the AF is also just as fragile vs. 1st player Demolisher - boom, there she goes, and Ackbar did nothing for you).

Gunnery teams are the same as in w1 - you get a few extra dice, but they won't always (or even very often) come into play. When they do it's cool to throw the extra Ackbar dice, but hardly op. Not at Ackbar's cost (and the opportunity cost of not taking say Mothma) anyway.

If you go 3 AFs you maximize Ackbar's potential red output. 3x2x2=12 with gunnery teams. Add shenanigans like EA (still viable) or TRC to taste, or go the XI7 and/or Intel route. Very strong synergies there, but there are many other strong synergies now, so I can't call it OP.

Add in Home One and you get more accuracies... but you have a points problem. 1 MC and 2 Afs with some upgrades will leave you WEAK on fighters. You will (potentially) get creamed by various flavors of Rhymer.

Downgrade one AF and the Ackbar synergy gets much weaker...

IMO Ackbar brings some interesting options to the table, but he's hardly broken.

It was never 3 reds, it was always 4. Now it's a minimum 5.

Want to know what's STRONG against fleets?

Try THREE AFmk2Bs and Home One to ensure they all get accuracy, which only one Imperial ship can evade. Don't have 3 AF2s? That's OK, you can take ridiculous combos like 2 CR90s with Slaved Turrets or TRCs with Home One and AF2s, or H1 and AF2s and an absurd number of A-Wings, or, or, or...

I'm almost starting to root for the "give us Wave 3" guys because the game has skewed 100% in favor of optimized rebel fleets. Ackbar, Mothma, Riekaan. I'd argue the only "bad" admiral right now might be Dodanna, who is "only" useful when an enemy ship takes critical damage..

Wave 1 was three red, unless you're including CF? If so, that's not "always".

Also, I just realized why I is was surprised that you could fit Home One and 3 AFMk2's.... I had never done the math for that list because it's incredibly risky to go All Ship now, this is known. With that list all you can really do for upgrades is add ECMs which, while nice, still leaves the entire fleet vulnerable.

That fleet would likely get plinked to death if the Imp rightly comes prepared. By now, both sides should know that squads are a must in Wave 2.

Against allship - spread your squadrons out like a minefield and go sit at the other end of the map. Enjoy what follows.

So if we were to run a game, what sides would you want to see?

Rebels:

A) Akbar on 4 AFM2s

B) Akbar 3 AFM2s and Squads

C) Akbar home one and 2 AFM2s

D) Akbar vette swarm

E) Other

1) 2 ISD Rhymer ball

2) 1 ISD 2 VSD Rball

3) 3 VSD tractor group

4) all ship (updated Gencon)

5) other

Post a list with your answer. The idea on the rebel side you want the list to be the most problematic usage of Akbar and the hardest to beat. On the Imperial side you want to choose the list best able to beat the best Akbar list while still having game elsewhere. Don't worry about minor variations. If you run IVG that goes under number 2. Also don't worry about the exact squadron composition. At the moment we'll ignore the difference between an Rball and a Fireball.

Once we get the lists straight we'll see if two champions step up for each side and duke it out on Vassal and report back.

Almost Naked Ackbar

Author: Amanal

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Home One ( 7 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)

A Tractor Beam would be considered under something useful, yes.

off topic but...

Why have you Removed the symbol of law And Order that use to be your Avatar?

Almost Naked Ackbar

Author: Amanal

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)

- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)

- Home One ( 7 points)

- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)

So this would be a variation on C.

One vote for C.

I need to play more games...

I'm just not feeling the Rebels being as easy and strong as they were in Wave 1. After Sullust, I switched sides so I could learn Imperials. The jump from VSD to ISD made life so easy. Not OP, just really easy to be successful with.

I'm trying my hand at a B-build right now.

What threads like this need are case examples. If someone put up some example game and situations we could at least work the problem rather than pick a side and complain about the other side.

Don't look at me. I've got a one year old. I'm lucky to get games in let alone photo and post them. Where's Lyareas? Have any textbook Akbar vs squad match ups to show?

If someone has a lot of times we could play by committee. Two threads, each side of one game and majority choice of moves. Should disagreement prevail, the game can split and two parallel games get run. Again, for all of you without 1-year olds at home.

Ok, so a double ISD list popped up in the fleet builds yesterday and it was remarkably close to my current design (other that I don't use Rhymer and replace him with Mithel, yes I know I am a heathen). I placed some advice on how to take on conga lines there.

I am working on my ISD Centerline video currently so that people have something to go off of. I have battle reports in the works as well but I don't have very many Rebel players who play often so this may just have to be a run and gun next week where I test my theories in the line of fire.

I have beaten a TRC90's with Home One and Ackbar with the ISD duo and I will say that it was due to me ramming myself.

Hmmm oddly enough, Vader is amazing here as a Commander but then again I am running ISD 2's of doom.

So if we were to run a game, what sides would you want to see?

Rebels:

A) Akbar on 4 AFM2s

B) Akbar 3 AFM2s and Squads

C) Akbar home one and 2 AFM2s

D) Akbar vette swarm

E) Other

1) 2 ISD Rhymer ball

2) 1 ISD 2 VSD Rball

3) 3 VSD tractor group

4) all ship (updated Gencon)

5) other

Post a list with your answer. The idea on the rebel side you want the list to be the most problematic usage of Akbar and the hardest to beat. On the Imperial side you want to choose the list best able to beat the best Akbar list while still having game elsewhere. Don't worry about minor variations. If you run IVG that goes under number 2. Also don't worry about the exact squadron composition. At the moment we'll ignore the difference between an Rball and a Fireball.

Once we get the lists straight we'll see if two champions step up for each side and duke it out on Vassal and report back.

One II hold the rhyme

Fits under 1) unless you mean no squadrons at all. At which point it goes under 5. Two ISDs operate significantly different from other lists. We could also classify it as 1b).

The list I am currently thinking of fielding goes like:

ISDII

-Ozzel

-Relentless

-Needa

-Gunnery team

-Boosted Comms

-ECM

-XI7

Raider I

Gladiator I

-Demolisher

-Ordnance Experts

-Engine Techs

-ACM

Squads

-Rhymer

-Firespray x3

-Dengar

-Tie Advanced

The idea is to leverage the medium sized fireball backed up by the naked raider, using the heavily upgraded demo and ISD as "finishers"

I have toyed with removing some upgrades for more ball but I don't know what I would feel comfortable getting rid of...

Engine techs? pretty crucial to helping close the distance and gain optimal position

Ordnance experts? I have this nasty tendency of rolling 4 black dice and getting 2 non crit damage...

ACM is not optional on demo

I don't know.

I think this list, with Ozzel can keep handily ahead of an ackbar list while the ball does work and given good deployment and obstacles should be able to control the first engagement. Unless I mess up and lose horribly! Haha! I'm open to suggestions.

A Tractor Beam would be considered under something useful, yes.

off topic but...

Why have you Removed the symbol of law And Order that use to be your Avatar?

People getting confused, since there was quite a few people with it - such as yourself.

Other?

Salvation 4 Ship

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 390/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery

Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault

Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)

- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)

- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)

- TRC ( 7 points)

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)

- TRC ( 7 points)

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)

- Salvation ( 7 points)

- Slaved Turrets ( 6 points)

1 Dash Rendar ( 24 points)

1 YT-2400 ( 16 points)

4 A-Wing Squadrons ( 44 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

Another other.

Guppy Carriers, Vette w/ Squads

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 395/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Most Wanted

Defense Objective: Fire Lanes

Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] CR90 Corvette A (44 points)

- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)

- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points)

1 "Dutch" Vander ( 16 points)

1 Wedge Antilles ( 19 points)

3 Y-Wing Squadrons ( 30 points)

1 Dash Rendar ( 24 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

One II hold the rhyme

Fits under 1) unless you mean no squadrons at all. At which point it goes under 5. Two ISDs operate significantly different from other lists. We could also classify it as 1b).

+++ Intelligence away! (387pts) +++

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (146pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts)]

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (182pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts), •Darth Vader (36pts)]

+ Squadrons (59pts) +

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

•"Mauler" Mithel (15pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Fire Lanes]

Navigation Objective [superior Positions]

One II hold the rhyme

Fits under 1) unless you mean no squadrons at all. At which point it goes under 5. Two ISDs operate significantly different from other lists. We could also classify it as 1b).

+++ Intelligence away! (387pts) +++

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (146pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts)]

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (182pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts), •Darth Vader (36pts)]

+ Squadrons (59pts) +

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

•"Mauler" Mithel (15pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Fire Lanes]

Navigation Objective [superior Positions]

Question, why the TA's instead of interceptors? No bombers so why not get the speed 5 counter 2 instead of the escort?

I'll add something:

In Wave 1 the AFb was... pretty much the best ship... boy could it dance!

But look at all the new crap wave 2 gave us... raiders, tractor beams, firesprays, Intel, and those huge speed 3 ISDs and whatnot.

3 reds out the side at long range, and not much more at close... that's no longer enough.

With Ackbar you get 5. That's a strong boost there, but red dice are fickle - this is known. All Ackbar does is make AFs competitive.

(the AF is also just as fragile vs. 1st player Demolisher - boom, there she goes, and Ackbar did nothing for you).

Gunnery teams are the same as in w1 - you get a few extra dice, but they won't always (or even very often) come into play. When they do it's cool to throw the extra Ackbar dice, but hardly op. Not at Ackbar's cost (and the opportunity cost of not taking say Mothma) anyway.

If you go 3 AFs you maximize Ackbar's potential red output. 3x2x2=12 with gunnery teams. Add shenanigans like EA (still viable) or TRC to taste, or go the XI7 and/or Intel route. Very strong synergies there, but there are many other strong synergies now, so I can't call it OP.

Add in Home One and you get more accuracies... but you have a points problem. 1 MC and 2 Afs with some upgrades will leave you WEAK on fighters. You will (potentially) get creamed by various flavors of Rhymer.

Downgrade one AF and the Ackbar synergy gets much weaker...

IMO Ackbar brings some interesting options to the table, but he's hardly broken.

It was never 3 reds, it was always 4. Now it's a minimum 5.

Want to know what's STRONG against fleets?

Try THREE AFmk2Bs and Home One to ensure they all get accuracy, which only one Imperial ship can evade. Don't have 3 AF2s? That's OK, you can take ridiculous combos like 2 CR90s with Slaved Turrets or TRCs with Home One and AF2s, or H1 and AF2s and an absurd number of A-Wings, or, or, or...

I'm almost starting to root for the "give us Wave 3" guys because the game has skewed 100% in favor of optimized rebel fleets. Ackbar, Mothma, Riekaan. I'd argue the only "bad" admiral right now might be Dodanna, who is "only" useful when an enemy ship takes critical damage..

Sounds like a terrible list.

Also, what do you do with that list against Jan+Bombers. The bombers ignore your squads and plink away at your ISD.

I realize we are talking about Ackbar lists, but it seems like you would open yourself up to any bomber support.

Edit: reread. I am an idiot.

Jan gives your squads heavy which means they can move elsewhere. It does not mean that they can ignore your squads. This is where the ship escort B's and YT1300 come in. They prevent bombers attacking your ships by parolling the zone around your ship. (Note doesnt work so well against Rhymer as the range is a killer)

Heavy has two effects. It removes the restriction on being able to move, yes, but it also removes the restriction on Not firing at Ships... So if all of the Squadrons a Bomber is engaged with are Heavy, they may fire at ships anyway.

However, if the choose to fire at Squadrons, even ones which are Heavy, then they must fire at an Escort Squadron if there is one in engagement.

One II hold the rhyme

Fits under 1) unless you mean no squadrons at all. At which point it goes under 5. Two ISDs operate significantly different from other lists. We could also classify it as 1b).

+++ Intelligence away! (387pts) +++

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (146pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts)]

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (182pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts), •Darth Vader (36pts)]

+ Squadrons (59pts) +

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

•"Mauler" Mithel (15pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Fire Lanes]

Navigation Objective [superior Positions]

Question, why the TA's instead of interceptors? No bombers so why not get the speed 5 counter 2 instead of the escort?

What Drasnighta said. In a recent game, I had a solid build of aggressors, interceptors, and Dengar. My opponent used Jan to ignore all those wonderful counter attacks and wreck my ISD with B-wings. Good positioning on his part, but still a vulnerability.

One II hold the rhyme

Fits under 1) unless you mean no squadrons at all. At which point it goes under 5. Two ISDs operate significantly different from other lists. We could also classify it as 1b).

+++ Intelligence away! (387pts) +++

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (146pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts)]

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (182pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Tactical Expert (6pts), XI7 Turbolasers (6pts), •Darth Vader (36pts)]

+ Squadrons (59pts) +

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

•"Mauler" Mithel (15pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Fire Lanes]

Navigation Objective [superior Positions]

Question, why the TA's instead of interceptors? No bombers so why not get the speed 5 counter 2 instead of the escort?

I like the tactical option.

I am also using a targeted Squadron force. Sure I could add in things but I find that the ISD usually does not need too much support. . .

Hmmm seems I misread that.

Madaghmire has it 100% right.

I have found that a TIE Advanced takes a bunch of punishment before being destroyed which is exactly what I want. It takes about a turn for it to die after engagement so that is 2 turns of me being allowed to move Mithel, attack back, get in anti Squadron fire from the ISD in support, etc.