It's virtually imposible for a demolisher kill a non damaged mk2 from 1 shot. 4 +1 blacks are a max of 10 damage; 3 shields (2 rear) plus redirect (3 more shields) + 6 hull it's a min of 11 damage to kill and then you have to account the brace. Don't say things that are not true. Also 10 damage with 5 black dice will be like what less than 2% possibility?.

Wow. Okay, twice day, I've gotten fairly aggressive kickback for something I've posted... but oh well, soldier on...

There is no need to be that aggressive.

Please take a Look at what I actually said. Perhaps I was a little loose in my wording, but I certainly consider it this way:

One Round of shooting. One Round = 2 Attacks. It Double-Arc'd it.

And before it hits that point, by screamed in, I meant it had positioned itself well enough, forcing the enemy activation elsewhere that it was able to do it quickly and cleanly without taking fire - NOT that it attempted to fire twice after moving.

If you doubt it beyond that, then please, refer to Clontroper5 above. As he did it. I'm sure if he has it, he'll be happy to share the Vassal Log file that showed it...

You call that aggressive? lol. He was just attempting to clarify your claim.

@Borin

Also, Glads with Demolisher have the wonderful ability to double-ram with Engine Techs and force through extra damage with APTs. That's 3 damage cards outside of normal "damage", which can ruin any Rebel ship's day.

Even with a double arc it was a **** good shoot. No offense or was being agressive only stating facts, I'm not english native and don't know if some of my phrases were being over agressive.

From my experience even a demolisher thant could land front of an mk2 with double arc; would need some good rolling to kill it in 3 shoots (aproach, and double arc). The mk2 usually where equiped with AP but even without it with brace and redirects and it's natural shielding it could survive at least 50% time (as the glad can't get x17 and intel officer are not usually equiped in that ship).

As the OP as said empire right now lacks the firepower or tanking power to go for an ackbar list. And it's soo much easier to broadside with that huge arcs than mantain front arc with the poor movility of the imperial fleet making the nav command almost an obligation.

He is equipped with Expanded Launchers, Intel officer, and Ordinance Experts plus my admiral is screed.

what happned was, I roll up infornt of his mk2 roll 4 damage (which was TERIIBLE) Intel his Brace so he takes all 4. Next turn I activate rolling 9 out of the front, Intel the brace he braces anyway and takes 5 loseing all his shields (that he can redirect to anyway) and fire out the side plus con fire I do 5 (still low damage for me) and with a structural damage I finish it off. Otherwise I could have rammed him twice (engine techs)

Also these were below average rolls for my build, normally I can safely expect a mk2 to die in 2 shots. (This time it took 3)

Even with a double arc it was a **** good shoot. No offense or was being agressive only stating facts, I'm not english native and don't know if some of my phrases were being over agressive.

From my experience even a demolisher thant could land front of an mk2 with double arc; would need some good rolling to kill it in 3 shoots (aproach, and double arc). The mk2 usually where equiped with AP but even without it with brace and redirects and it's natural shielding it could survive at least 50% time (as the glad can't get x17 and intel officer are not usually equiped in that ship).

As the OP as said empire right now lacks the firepower or tanking power to go for an ackbar list. And it's soo much easier to broadside with that huge arcs than mantain front arc with the poor movility of the imperial fleet making the nav command almost an obligation.

ok it was my Demolisher,He is fully tricked out and averages about 8 damage a roll (literally)

He is equipped with Expanded Launchers, Intel officer, and Ordinance Experts plus my admiral is screed.

what happned was, I roll up infornt of his mk2 roll 4 damage (which was TERIIBLE) Intel his Brace so he takes all 4. Next turn I activate rolling 9 out of the front, Intel the brace he braces anyway and takes 5 loseing all his shields (that he can redirect to anyway) and fire out the side plus con fire I do 5 (still low damage for me) and with a structural damage I finish it off. Otherwise I could have rammed him twice (engine techs)

Also these were below average rolls for my build, normally I can safely expect a mk2 to die in 2 shots. (This time it took 3)

You can't intel twice in the same round...? perhaps you mis-remembered that part...

Yea. . .I still don't understand what the issue is. . . Are people mad because they feel that the Rebels got unfairly stronger in a single wave? Is it that people are upset that they don't know how to counter these lists?

All I know is that I 10-0 Ackbar lists at times with just 2 ISD's and some squadrons. I don't have many rebel players to play against but there are a few.

Now it Beatty wants to get playing again. . . I could have some great games!

Yea. . .I still don't understand what the issue is. . . Are people mad because they feel that the Rebels got unfairly stronger in a single wave? Is it that people are upset that they don't know how to counter these lists?

All I know is that I 10-0 Ackbar lists at times with just 2 ISD's and some squadrons. I don't have many rebel players to play against but there are a few.

Now it Beatty wants to get playing again. . . I could have some great games!

I feel that this wave actually balanced the rebels, they were a touch weak in wave 1. Overall I feel like the game has never been so balanced as it is now.

I think this ends up meaning that skill and how the battle unfolds (and how skill influences that unfolding) becomes much more of a factor in the outcome than "build list ABC pew pew win" I have fed enough Ackbar lists their own asses that I do not fear them, it does NOT take a rocket surgeon to figure out which direction a conga is going to go in at the placement of the very first enemy ship and obstacle placement can help inform or hinder some area denial tactics before the first movement template hits the table.

I have also seen a High speed Glad/Raider ACM list close the distance cap the conga and curb stomp ackbar lists (both lists with few fighters) before the red dice could do more than cinder a single raider (and then that same Glad/Raider list get taken apart by a fireball list, hehe)

Rebels don't have any automatic advantages, skilled players do...

Yea. . .I still don't understand what the issue is. . . Are people mad because they feel that the Rebels got unfairly stronger in a single wave? Is it that people are upset that they don't know how to counter these lists?

All I know is that I 10-0 Ackbar lists at times with just 2 ISD's and some squadrons. I don't have many rebel players to play against but there are a few.

Now it Beatty wants to get playing again. . . I could have some great games!

I feel that this wave actually balanced the rebels, they were a touch weak in wave 1. Overall I feel like the game has never been so balanced as it is now.

Rebels don't have any automatic advantages, skilled players do...

I dont know about rebels being weak. . . they won worlds. . .

Yea. . .I still don't understand what the issue is. . . Are people mad because they feel that the Rebels got unfairly stronger in a single wave? Is it that people are upset that they don't know how to counter these lists?

All I know is that I 10-0 Ackbar lists at times with just 2 ISD's and some squadrons. I don't have many rebel players to play against but there are a few.

Now it Beatty wants to get playing again. . . I could have some great games!

I feel that this wave actually balanced the rebels, they were a touch weak in wave 1. Overall I feel like the game has never been so balanced as it is now.

Rebels don't have any automatic advantages, skilled players do...

I dont know about rebels being weak. . . they won worlds. . .

Fighters won worlds by one clever guy turning a stale meta on its ass. You can't take the exception and pretend its the rule.

In the current meta at my game shop, I don't expect Demolisher to survive most of the time. Now that doesn't mean I just throw away a perfectly good ship. I just try to maximize the damage and prioritize targets with my little Glad for an equivalent or greater amount of points.

Yea. . .I still don't understand what the issue is. . . Are people mad because they feel that the Rebels got unfairly stronger in a single wave? Is it that people are upset that they don't know how to counter these lists?

All I know is that I 10-0 Ackbar lists at times with just 2 ISD's and some squadrons. I don't have many rebel players to play against but there are a few.

Now it Beatty wants to get playing again. . . I could have some great games!

I feel that this wave actually balanced the rebels, they were a touch weak in wave 1. Overall I feel like the game has never been so balanced as it is now.

Rebels don't have any automatic advantages, skilled players do...

I dont know about rebels being weak. . . they won worlds. . .

Fighters won worlds by one clever guy turning a stale meta on its ass. You can't take the exception and pretend its the rule.

I believe fighters were a big part bit it is not something that could of pulled off by Imperials as well

Yea. . .I still don't understand what the issue is. . . Are people mad because they feel that the Rebels got unfairly stronger in a single wave? Is it that people are upset that they don't know how to counter these lists?

All I know is that I 10-0 Ackbar lists at times with just 2 ISD's and some squadrons. I don't have many rebel players to play against but there are a few.

Now it Beatty wants to get playing again. . . I could have some great games!

I feel that this wave actually balanced the rebels, they were a touch weak in wave 1. Overall I feel like the game has never been so balanced as it is now.

Rebels don't have any automatic advantages, skilled players do...

I dont know about rebels being weak. . . they won worlds. . .

Fighters won worlds by one clever guy turning a stale meta on its ass. You can't take the exception and pretend its the rule.

I believe fighters were a big part bit it is not something that could of pulled off by Imperials as well

no, they just pulled off most of the remaining top places

Wave 1 was very limited and, given the dominance of the GSD, it made it very difficult to get effective VSD carriers on the table. While Rhymer Ball was, and is, very painful, the empire didn't have the AFmk2 to effectively engage enemy GSDs with

So, back then, Rebs had both the ideal carrier and a very potent all-purpose squadron.

It's Wave 2 now, and Empire can shred through its own GSDs with the almighty ISD, which also doubles as a very effective carrier in case you wish to replicate that strategy (albeit, with less broadsiding and more steamrolling)

Even with a double arc it was a **** good shoot. No offense or was being agressive only stating facts, I'm not english native and don't know if some of my phrases were being over agressive.

From my experience even a demolisher thant could land front of an mk2 with double arc; would need some good rolling to kill it in 3 shoots (aproach, and double arc). The mk2 usually where equiped with AP but even without it with brace and redirects and it's natural shielding it could survive at least 50% time (as the glad can't get x17 and intel officer are not usually equiped in that ship).

As the OP as said empire right now lacks the firepower or tanking power to go for an ackbar list. And it's soo much easier to broadside with that huge arcs than mantain front arc with the poor movility of the imperial fleet making the nav command almost an obligation.

ok it was my Demolisher,He is fully tricked out and averages about 8 damage a roll (literally)

He is equipped with Expanded Launchers, Intel officer, and Ordinance Experts plus my admiral is screed.

what happned was, I roll up infornt of his mk2 roll 4 damage (which was TERIIBLE) Intel his Brace so he takes all 4. Next turn I activate rolling 9 out of the front, Intel the brace he braces anyway and takes 5 loseing all his shields (that he can redirect to anyway) and fire out the side plus con fire I do 5 (still low damage for me) and with a structural damage I finish it off. Otherwise I could have rammed him twice (engine techs)

Also these were below average rolls for my build, normally I can safely expect a mk2 to die in 2 shots. (This time it took 3)

You can't intel twice in the same round...? perhaps you mis-remembered that part...

Demolisher is last activation turn 2 moves, and shoots with Intel

Then next turn shoots 1st with Intel on one shot

ah makes sense now. so the AF died before even getting a shot in on the demo. nasty.

I have never taken Ackbar as a Rebel player and I've yet to lose to him (I've admittedly only seen him four times). Squadrons are the best and easiest way to tackle him.

When I was growing up I used to play warhammer 40k with my brother. He was Tau, I was space marines. Tau have greater firing range and he was the far better player, so its a very good analogy for this thread.

In a straight up fight I couldnt even get close. However, the big handicap is that I got to place all the obstacles, pretty much akin to choosing the objective. The game wasnt who could outright kill each other fastest, the game was whether I could get close to him without taking heavy losses.

Even then it was still tough as he had an ace up the sleeve. Three heavily armoured, highly mobile melee warriors who could intercept my troops and tie them up whilst I got blasted from afar.

So I learnt to place obstacles to plan my primary attack paths, give me alternative options and also to force him to misdeploy his troops. The same is true here, choose your objectives to force your opponent to make mistakes, use your deployment to get them to make more and then be ruthless in capitalising on those mistakes. Know your fleet, know your strengths and weaknesses and exploit them.

What I find rather odd reading these forums is that the general concept of squadrons appears to be run them in one massive ball. Why? Except in the case of certain synergies there really is no reason to make it that easy for your opponents to avoid the mass ball.

Its the same with ships, one conga line is predictable, two going alternate directions is harder to intercept.

This game is in its early days, there is so much more to evolve, enjoy it.

There are really two Ackbars, the fairly normal one, and the broken one.

The normal Ackbar really just transfers front arc red dice to the side arc, and thus lowers the skill level required to fly most lists "optimally". This means you will see a large number of the lower skilled Rebel players suddenly experiencing a spike in their win rates against their old opponents.

The broken Ackbar massively boosts the firepower of the AS mkII with gunnery teams far beyond the point of being reasonable.

It's not whether Ackbar is around, it's how many assault frigates he brought with him. A pair of MC-80's with Ackbar, or some Ackbar boosted Nebs simply are not game breaking in any way.

Ackbar TRC are also pretty impresive for it's points. Same as MC30s

As an Imperial player I'm primarily bewildered about how Rebel ships are out-gunning the Empire in broadside lists. If the dynamic from the core set still held, the Rebellion should be counting on upgrades and other tricks (like fighters) to win against Capital ships, while Empire won through brute force of superior capital ships and used their fighters as an afterthought. Now with the potential for Rebels to out-shoot the Empire, where is the Imperial advantage except in killing fighters better (ie, nothing significant).

Again as an Imperial player, the only safe choice I see in my ship selection is the Imperial. It has the ECM it needs, greater hull than any of the Rebel ships, a good upgrade selection set and a good center for any list. Gladiators are less reliable, but still potent because they have the Demolisher and are made better with Ordnance Experts and/or Screed.

I have seen far too many Victory Star Destroyers go down to have much faith in them anymore, now that I know that XI7s with Home One support makes a farce out of their defense. Any smart player can knock out the pair escorting my Star Destroyer and leave me with one activation vs I dunno, three? Might as well switch to Gladiators since they at least have the chance of dodging enemy firing arcs.

I've seen the Raider called a Finesse weapon with stories of it's success, but it hasn't impressed me, theoretically or practically. It dies much too quick, and pales in comparison to its rebel counterpart the CR-90A. There's a reason nobody in my area seems to take the CR-90B, and it's the same reason why the Raider continues to disappoint: Any small ship getting into medium range is asking for trouble. You can run distraction with bigger threats, but always killing the small threat first makes the Imperial player have one less activation and points thrown away. Gambling with these and Gladiators in an Ozzel list could work, but then you're putting stock in a list of weaker ships in a meta of Ackbar broadsides with Home One support. I don't like those odds.

So with that, there's only two ships out of the Imperial lineup that I, an Imperial player, feel safe taking.

Meanwhile the Rebels have no bad eggs in their lineup except the CR-90B, but anyone taking corvettes is taking the A variant anyway. Even the MC30 has impressed me seeing on the table and surviving as long as it does. Moreover with the exception of the Nebulon-B, every rebel ship has access to ECM, and even the Nebs don't need it because they have double brace! So unless the Empire takes Intelligence officers on every ship to fight back, the Empire is going to be the side of taking full damage, because Home One says so.

Meanwhile the Rebels have no bad eggs in their lineup except the CR-90B, but anyone taking corvettes is taking the A variant anyway. Even the MC30 has impressed me seeing on the table and surviving as long as it does. Moreover with the exception of the Nebulon-B, every rebel ship has access to ECM, and even the Nebs don't need it because they have double brace! So unless the Empire takes Intelligence officers on every ship to fight back, the Empire is going to be the side of taking full damage, because Home One says so.

I suppose it depends how you view your ships. If the Raider is limited by it's 'range issuses' then couldn't the same be said for the MC30c Torpedo Frigate? I've struggled with the Nebulon B. It might have 2 brace tokens but it just seems to underperform for me. Either it fails to do any damage or gets caught in the flank or has to face tank too much enemy firepower. On the other hand I've never really had an issue with the CR-90B. I tend to run it with Overload pulse to try to flip those defence tokens in a Mon Mothma fleet or with the Dodonna's Pride title to deal those face up damage cards in a General Dodonna fleet.

T-beams are what made VSDs viable

have had no problem with Akbar after including those and slowing Afmk2s down to an easily destroyed crawl. Motti in an ISD-2 helps a lot as well

other than that, seems Armada's gone the X-wing way of things. Rebels get big beefy bull, Imps gotta rely on their maneuvering and awesomeness to survive

T-beams are what made VSDs viable

have had no problem with Akbar after including those and slowing Afmk2s down to an easily destroyed crawl. Motti in an ISD-2 helps a lot as well

other than that, seems Armada's gone the X-wing way of things. Rebels get big beefy bull, Imps gotta rely on their maneuvering and awesomeness to survive

Maybe its just my table, but we have been seeing a lot of Imperial victories. Small sample size, but Ackbar has been getting his fishy face kicked in by bomber lists and ISD's.

I've yet to play an Ackbar list or face one...

That being said, I still believe the Imperials have an easier time in wave 2 than the Rebels. Why? The ISD makes all the wave 1 VSD struggle and flips the settings to easy. It's tough, it flys like the wind in comparison, and hits like a truck.

The Rebels MC80 is a mediocre upgrade at best over the AF. The 2 killers is the nerf of AP and the inability to take gunnery teams. I can deal with speed 2, I can't deal with the near double points for almost no benefit.

Is Ackbar powerful? No doubt. That's two red dice, four if you can manage both arcs hitting something on the same turn. But an ISD II just is a bear with little effort required, and even easier with GT.

It's virtually imposible for a demolisher kill a non damaged mk2 from 1 shot. 4 +1 blacks are a max of 10 damage; 3 shields (2 rear) plus redirect (3 more shields) + 6 hull it's a min of 11 damage to kill and then you have to account the brace. Don't say things that are not true. Also 10 damage with 5 black dice will be like what less than 2% possibility?.

Wow. Okay, twice day, I've gotten fairly aggressive kickback for something I've posted... but oh well, soldier on...

There is no need to be that aggressive.

Please take a Look at what I actually said. Perhaps I was a little loose in my wording, but I certainly consider it this way:

One Round of shooting. One Round = 2 Attacks. It Double-Arc'd it.

And before it hits that point, by screamed in, I meant it had positioned itself well enough, forcing the enemy activation elsewhere that it was able to do it quickly and cleanly without taking fire - NOT that it attempted to fire twice after moving.

If you doubt it beyond that, then please, refer to Clontroper5 above. As he did it. I'm sure if he has it, he'll be happy to share the Vassal Log file that showed it...

You call that aggressive? lol. He was just attempting to clarify your claim.

@Borin

Also, Glads with Demolisher have the wonderful ability to double-ram with Engine Techs and force through extra damage with APTs. That's 3 damage cards outside of normal "damage", which can ruin any Rebel ship's day.

4 Damage, actually: first attack crit, second attack crit, normal ram, E-tech ram. That will drop most small ships especially if any of that initial damage touches the hull past the critical effects.

I've yet to play an Ackbar list or face one...

That being said, I still believe the Imperials have an easier time in wave 2 than the Rebels. Why? The ISD makes all the wave 1 VSD struggle and flips the settings to easy. It's tough, it flys like the wind in comparison, and hits like a truck.

The Rebels MC80 is a mediocre upgrade at best over the AF. The 2 killers is the nerf of AP and the inability to take gunnery teams. I can deal with speed 2, I can't deal with the near double points for almost no benefit.

Is Ackbar powerful? No doubt. That's two red dice, four if you can manage both arcs hitting something on the same turn. But an ISD II just is a bear with little effort required, and even easier with GT.

MC80s are some of the most durable and powerful support ships in the game, and they have powerful broadsides. People are underestimating the power of the MC80. Home One basically gives every other ship in your fleet improved H9 Turbolasers, as one example. They also do a solid job as carriers, with Independence pushing speed 2 bombers into position for activation later.

My ISD keeps getting ripped to shreds. I feel like the engineering value is too low, because once the shields drop, you have to bring back more shields than a VSD with the same ammount of points. Even with Engineering captain and a token, it's never enough to stop the bleeding once it has started.

I'm thinking maybe if I had two ISD's it would split the focus from one to two, allowing one or both more time to dish out some damage, but I don't want to sink $50 into the ship if it's still going to suck this bad.