I think there's been too little discussion here about the deployment phase of the game. Placing obstacles well and using fighters to delay ship deployments can give you a tremendous advantage in getting ahead of MC80s or AFIIs.

I found this amusing, because as a Rebel, I thought the opposite was true.

"I appreciate this isnt easy, which is why playing rebels is at basic level easier. "

I suppose it shows the ebb and flow of the game overall. Almost like the back and forth that can happen in a war situation with both sides experiencing periods of advantage and disadvantage.

I played an Ozzel list recently and man can you from slowing rolling to right in someones face before they know what hit them. Then slam on the the brakes again and make them eat black dice. I think he might be overlooked as an Ackbar counter because gives you crazy maneuverability without have to use upgrade slots to get it.

I played an Ozzel list recently and man can you from slowing rolling to right in someones face before they know what hit them. Then slam on the the brakes again and make them eat black dice. I think he might be overlooked as an Ackbar counter because gives you crazy maneuverability without have to use upgrade slots to get it.

Though I have yet to face him, I think Ozzel might worry me the most. Navigational tactics are a huge part of the game (duh), and Ozzel lets you do all sorts of funky stuff.

He seems to be very overlooked atm.

I played an Ozzel list recently and man can you from slowing rolling to right in someones face before they know what hit them. Then slam on the the brakes again and make them eat black dice. I think he might be overlooked as an Ackbar counter because gives you crazy maneuverability without have to use upgrade slots to get it.

Nah man, Ozzel just does work. A lot of people learn the hard way, including myself.

I think there's been too little discussion here about the deployment phase of the game. Placing obstacles well and using fighters to delay ship deployments can give you a tremendous advantage in getting ahead of MC80s or AFIIs.

Objectives, initiative, deployment, obstacle placement, all of which are overlooked when discussing Ackbar, Home One, and Rebel red dice. All this talk about damage when the majority of the game resolves around maneuver, position and objectives in a 6-round game.

I think there's been too little discussion here about the deployment phase of the game. Placing obstacles well and using fighters to delay ship deployments can give you a tremendous advantage in getting ahead of MC80s or AFIIs.

Objectives, initiative, deployment, obstacle placement, all of which are overlooked when discussing Ackbar, Home One, and Rebel red dice. All this talk about damage when the majority of the game resolves around maneuver, position and objectives in a 6-round game.

The game is not a vacuum. There are always other factors to consider when you are building your list.

I found this amusing, because as a Rebel, I thought the opposite was true.

"I appreciate this isnt easy, which is why playing rebels is at basic level easier. "

I suppose it shows the ebb and flow of the game overall. Almost like the back and forth that can happen in a war situation with both sides experiencing periods of advantage and disadvantage.

I'll caveat with, "in wave 1 the opposite was true"

I think people are also constantly overlooking another big point in that Ackbar lists are by definition going to be skimpy on fighters.

I think it was already said here or maybe another thread that if you are running ackbar you want to maximize ships. Most of the dedicated ackbar lists you see will be sporting at most 3 stands of fighters which a full point rhymerball will shrug off. Yes, this does mean bringing a ball of fighters is now potentially the only guaranteed ackbar counter you can bring that also works for a variety of other lists, heres a tissue.

You can run your ISDII as a "carrier" by just having boosted comms on it, keep your capital ships out the fight as long as possible and pounce after the ball has poured round after round of annoyance on the enemy. Rhymerball placement vs conga lists is almost as easy as keeping enemies in your side arc with a conga list. It is simply childs play to get your fighters in medium range in the front arc of the lead ship and ask the question of your opponent if he would like to drive through your swarm and save you having to use squad commands, like ever, or turn his side arcs away from your ISD and potentially end up driving towards your front with his. I have taken to also backing these with a single expendable raider at low speeds to either "Cap the T" or pour pain on a fighter response should the opponent be running a more significant fighter force.

Clever placement of obstacles and good deployment will see that ackbar list beaten before the game really begins.

Keep in mind that with a heavy firespray list vs a no/low fighter list you only really need a squad value of 3 to get your entire ball shooting after moving in a round. If you do hate having fighters consider a mini fireball of 2 firesprays, rhymer and a jumpmaster for 64 points (aka an upgraded glad I which would die a flaming death before doing as much damage as this little cluster will manage across its lifetime vs an ackbar list) this gives you a highly mobile and relatively resilient force that can do up to 7 damage at medium range while being much more resilient vs ship based return fire than a points-equivalent ship.

I think people are also constantly overlooking another big point in that Ackbar lists are by definition going to be skimpy on fighters.

I think it was already said here or maybe another thread that if you are running ackbar you want to maximize ships. Most of the dedicated ackbar lists you see will be sporting at most 3 stands of fighters which a full point rhymerball will shrug off. Yes, this does mean bringing a ball of fighters is now potentially the only guaranteed ackbar counter you can bring that also works for a variety of other lists, heres a tissue.

You can run your ISDII as a "carrier" by just having boosted comms on it, keep your capital ships out the fight as long as possible and pounce after the ball has poured round after round of annoyance on the enemy. Rhymerball placement vs conga lists is almost as easy as keeping enemies in your side arc with a conga list. It is simply childs play to get your fighters in medium range in the front arc of the lead ship and ask the question of your opponent if he would like to drive through your swarm and save you having to use squad commands, like ever, or turn his side arcs away from your ISD and potentially end up driving towards your front with his. I have taken to also backing these with a single expendable raider at low speeds to either "Cap the T" or pour pain on a fighter response should the opponent be running a more significant fighter force.

Clever placement of obstacles and good deployment will see that ackbar list beaten before the game really begins.

Keep in mind that with a heavy firespray list vs a no/low fighter list you only really need a squad value of 3 to get your entire ball shooting after moving in a round. If you do hate having fighters consider a mini fireball of 2 firesprays, rhymer and a jumpmaster for 64 points (aka an upgraded glad I which would die a flaming death before doing as much damage as this little cluster will manage across its lifetime vs an ackbar list) this gives you a highly mobile and relatively resilient force that can do up to 7 damage at medium range while being much more resilient vs ship based return fire than a points-equivalent ship.

I don't know, Hastatior. I'm pretty new to Armada, being more of an X-winger, but I find Ackbar works very well with a decent squadron commitment. At a recent tournament I played a slave leia corvette leading the conga, trying to force flanking decisions, followed by the carrier MC80 with Ackbar, followed by a scout frigate with title and reroute. The idea was to have the scout closing with ships that were trying to close distance with Ackbar, by cutting 'up' the inside of the line at a higher speed, while 4 X's, Han and Jan balled up on the nose of the biggest threat near to the carrier.

The squadrons had air superiority in all three games, and chewed through a lot of imperial shields, leaving a lot of nervous captains, facing the decision whether to double down and close the gap with Ackbar, knowing that the engagement wouldn't favour them, or stay at range and play his game. As it turned out I went 3-0 on the day, and really enjoyed the games. In short, I think that while Ackbar lists on first glance scream out to be loaded out with ships, when you look at the board, that space which you're making your opponent cross in order to level the playing field sure does look a lot less palatable when it's full of your bombers... Just my 2p's worth.

I think people are also constantly overlooking another big point in that Ackbar lists are by definition going to be skimpy on fighters.

I think it was already said here or maybe another thread that if you are running ackbar you want to maximize ships. Most of the dedicated ackbar lists you see will be sporting at most 3 stands of fighters which a full point rhymerball will shrug off. Yes, this does mean bringing a ball of fighters is now potentially the only guaranteed ackbar counter you can bring that also works for a variety of other lists, heres a tissue.

I think fighter lists have to gamble on killing the capital ships before theirs kills yours. It's why my last VSD list lost so hard... fighters couldn't kill enemy ships fast enough to prevent them from annihilating my carriers. Especially if Rebels decide to close the distance and pass.

I mean, I did create a crazy 15-fighter list with Rhymer as the ace and a few ships on backup that might work against Ackbar? The idea is to use the squadrons entirely in the squadron phase to fly to where they need to be and start attacking. They can be out-run by faster capital ships but at least that's a swarm to deal with while my capitals stay safe, hopefully to pounce near the end-game to do some damage. I could trade out the mass of TIEs for something that can survive the AA attacks better.... but that is no longer an imperial gun-line. And need I point out Empire has four bombers out of eighteen squadrons... even the Rebels can out-fighter the Empire when it comes to capital battles.

Good that the discussion has move to include the boarder spectrum of the game. I find that Imp bombers have it pretty good.

All you need to do is make Akbar chase you with front Arc. They can't take lumbering flanking moves if you are running (or baiting them) and have enough time to kill you. If you deploy facing them then straight towards them they can easily peel off and surround you. Don't play into that.

I deploy my debris straight down the middle the board looks somewhat split in half, left and right, roughly 1.5 spaces away from each other. I deploy one ship in the middle. I deploy all my fighters, depending on the list between it's Rhymer + another 6-11. I have won the activation game. Now i deploy my carrier on the opposite slide of their forces on this split board. For example two Guppys on my left means I deploy on the right.

You have an incredible advantage now. Akbar needs to turn the broad side to hit you. But if you deploy away from them they need to point towards you to catch up. You can't catch up by pointing your broad side square on at someone. By deploying away from them it ruins the way the want to fly. Make Akbar come towards you. They will eventually want to peel off either left or right at medium-max range. But again this is super easy to predict.

But flying away isn't going to win a blowout game for you. That is where Gladiators, Bombers play their part. Engine Techs and Boosted comms punish Akbar hard. You sit your bombers in the front arc so if they have the double point defense they don't have Akbar. If you fly into the front arc of a Reb with Demolisher its all bad for them. If they jump over you (guppy) they are now split up or they are stuck (mc80). Salvation is simple to avoid with Engine Tech, even without. The front arc is so narrow. Just buy a miniatures laser pointer.

If strategy for the Empire to counter Ackbar is shifting to fighters and small ships, I have to ask, is there any hope for Imperial gun-lines anymore? Or should ISDs be carriers instead of gunboats?

If strategy for the Empire to counter Ackbar is shifting to fighters and small ships, I have to ask, is there any hope for Imperial gun-lines anymore? Or should ISDs be carriers instead of gunboats?

Why can't they be both?

If you mean load up an ISD with something like Expanded Hangars, H-9s, SW-7s and the works... with how well Ackbar lists are performing I'm not confident much in few-activation heavy ship builds. If you overload two star destroyers, all that needs to happen is Ackbar takes out one and now you're grossly outnumbered in activations and attacks.

The lists I used to like running were two VSD-IIs escorting an ISD-II with various tricks (like Avenger and NK-7s on the VSDs). But in a solo test against an Ackbar build, I watched both VSDs vanish easily and left me outnumbered 3 to 1. Since AF-MC80 Ackbar builds might end up being common I need to find another build.

My Imperial Successes have been driven so far with the concept that "The Rebels are going to Duke it out at Long Range... At Long Range, a VSD-I is just as effective as a VSD-II... So I'll save those points and get something else useful."

Then again. I've still been having some success with the ISD-1 for that... When you're going to lose your Brace due to Intel Officers, you don't really care about ACCs anymore, and ergo, ECMs...

My Imperial Successes have been driven so far with the concept that "The Rebels are going to Duke it out at Long Range... At Long Range, a VSD-I is just as effective as a VSD-II... So I'll save those points and get something else useful."

Then again. I've still been having some success with the ISD-1 for that... When you're going to lose your Brace due to Intel Officers, you don't really care about ACCs anymore, and ergo, ECMs...

A Tractor Beam would be considered under something useful, yes.

A Tractor Beam would be considered under something useful, yes.

Why have you Removed the symbol of law And Order that use to be your Avatar?

I think there's been too little discussion here about the deployment phase of the game. Placing obstacles well and using fighters to delay ship deployments can give you a tremendous advantage in getting ahead of MC80s or AFIIs.

Objectives, initiative, deployment, obstacle placement, all of which are overlooked when discussing Ackbar, Home One, and Rebel red dice. All this talk about damage when the majority of the game resolves around maneuver, position and objectives in a 6-round game.

If you need a diverse mix of deployment, objective and manouvering tactics to maybe counter a basic "I circle you and throw red dice out of my miles-long broadside arc till oblivion" approach, then there is something wrong, imho. To make use of ackbar you need what, basic understanding of the game?

I'll add something:

In Wave 1 the AFb was... pretty much the best ship... boy could it dance!

But look at all the new crap wave 2 gave us... raiders, tractor beams, firesprays, Intel, and those huge speed 3 ISDs and whatnot.

3 reds out the side at long range, and not much more at close... that's no longer enough.

With Ackbar you get 5. That's a strong boost there, but red dice are fickle - this is known. All Ackbar does is make AFs competitive.

(the AF is also just as fragile vs. 1st player Demolisher - boom, there she goes, and Ackbar did nothing for you).

Gunnery teams are the same as in w1 - you get a few extra dice, but they won't always (or even very often) come into play. When they do it's cool to throw the extra Ackbar dice, but hardly op. Not at Ackbar's cost (and the opportunity cost of not taking say Mothma) anyway.

If you go 3 AFs you maximize Ackbar's potential red output. 3x2x2=12 with gunnery teams. Add shenanigans like EA (still viable) or TRC to taste, or go the XI7 and/or Intel route. Very strong synergies there, but there are many other strong synergies now, so I can't call it OP.

Add in Home One and you get more accuracies... but you have a points problem. 1 MC and 2 Afs with some upgrades will leave you WEAK on fighters. You will (potentially) get creamed by various flavors of Rhymer.

Downgrade one AF and the Ackbar synergy gets much weaker...

IMO Ackbar brings some interesting options to the table, but he's hardly broken.

Good that the discussion has move to include the boarder spectrum of the game. I find that Imp bombers have it pretty good.

All you need to do is make Akbar chase you with front Arc. They can't take lumbering flanking moves if you are running (or baiting them) and have enough time to kill you. If you deploy facing them then straight towards them they can easily peel off and surround you. Don't play into that.

I deploy my debris straight down the middle the board looks somewhat split in half, left and right, roughly 1.5 spaces away from each other. I deploy one ship in the middle. I deploy all my fighters, depending on the list between it's Rhymer + another 6-11. I have won the activation game. Now i deploy my carrier on the opposite slide of their forces on this split board. For example two Guppys on my left means I deploy on the right.

You have an incredible advantage now. Akbar needs to turn the broad side to hit you. But if you deploy away from them they need to point towards you to catch up. You can't catch up by pointing your broad side square on at someone. By deploying away from them it ruins the way the want to fly. Make Akbar come towards you. They will eventually want to peel off either left or right at medium-max range. But again this is super easy to predict.

But flying away isn't going to win a blowout game for you. That is where Gladiators, Bombers play their part. Engine Techs and Boosted comms punish Akbar hard. You sit your bombers in the front arc so if they have the double point defense they don't have Akbar. If you fly into the front arc of a Reb with Demolisher its all bad for them. If they jump over you (guppy) they are now split up or they are stuck (mc80). Salvation is simple to avoid with Engine Tech, even without. The front arc is so narrow. Just buy a miniatures laser pointer.

So basically the strategy for killing Ackbar is to completely ignore the powerful front arcs of our carriers and instead hope he doesn't shoot us to death from the back while we squad squad squad?

I'll add something:

In Wave 1 the AFb was... pretty much the best ship... boy could it dance!

But look at all the new crap wave 2 gave us... raiders, tractor beams, firesprays, Intel, and those huge speed 3 ISDs and whatnot.

3 reds out the side at long range, and not much more at close... that's no longer enough.

With Ackbar you get 5. That's a strong boost there, but red dice are fickle - this is known. All Ackbar does is make AFs competitive.

(the AF is also just as fragile vs. 1st player Demolisher - boom, there she goes, and Ackbar did nothing for you).

Gunnery teams are the same as in w1 - you get a few extra dice, but they won't always (or even very often) come into play. When they do it's cool to throw the extra Ackbar dice, but hardly op. Not at Ackbar's cost (and the opportunity cost of not taking say Mothma) anyway.

If you go 3 AFs you maximize Ackbar's potential red output. 3x2x2=12 with gunnery teams. Add shenanigans like EA (still viable) or TRC to taste, or go the XI7 and/or Intel route. Very strong synergies there, but there are many other strong synergies now, so I can't call it OP.

Add in Home One and you get more accuracies... but you have a points problem. 1 MC and 2 Afs with some upgrades will leave you WEAK on fighters. You will (potentially) get creamed by various flavors of Rhymer.

Downgrade one AF and the Ackbar synergy gets much weaker...

IMO Ackbar brings some interesting options to the table, but he's hardly broken.

It was never 3 reds, it was always 4. Now it's a minimum 5.

Want to know what's STRONG against fleets?

Try THREE AFmk2Bs and Home One to ensure they all get accuracy, which only one Imperial ship can evade. Don't have 3 AF2s? That's OK, you can take ridiculous combos like 2 CR90s with Slaved Turrets or TRCs with Home One and AF2s, or H1 and AF2s and an absurd number of A-Wings, or, or, or...

I'm almost starting to root for the "give us Wave 3" guys because the game has skewed 100% in favor of optimized rebel fleets. Ackbar, Mothma, Riekaan. I'd argue the only "bad" admiral right now might be Dodanna, who is "only" useful when an enemy ship takes critical damage..

I need to play more games...

I'm just not feeling the Rebels being as easy and strong as they were in Wave 1. After Sullust, I switched sides so I could learn Imperials. The jump from VSD to ISD made life so easy. Not OP, just really easy to be successful with.