The Age of the Demolisher is over. The Time of the Ackbar has come...

Well, in case it isn't quite obvious by this point, Ackbar is making many Imperial players cry at the thought of monumental amounts of red dice. While not every rebel player is pulling these lists off well, those good rebels are figuring out horrid ways to make it hard to do one's duty in the Imperial Navy (good in skill, obviously. They're all scum.)

Alright, for those who don't quite know what I'm going on about, let's take a look at this issue. It really is not Ackbar's fault alone. Though I believe him to be very good for his points (probably better than any other commander point-per-point), he alone is not broken. That being said, he is tremendously good. Like, stupidly good. It normally costs 10 points to increase one's side-arc by 1 red dice (Enhanced Armaments). Consider then, at this cost, that Ackbar allows each ship to add 2 red dice to their side arcs (at the "horrible" price of having to fire from their massive side arcs. Boo-hoo. Stupid rebels...) which, for a 4-ship Rebel list essentially adds 80 points worth of dice increase. More importantly, it also frees up the turbolaser slot so Rebels can purchase other fun turbolaser toys, such as the more and more popular Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (which, by the way, all these turbolaser upgrades are cheaper than the Enhanced Armaments).

So, Akbar's ability is already the best bang-for-buck damage increase around. This alone teters him on the edge of the brink towards true brokenness. But, unfortunately, this problem is compounded by a few more issues that start to become apparent with a bit of tactical analysis.

With the introduction of Wave II, we've solidly set up the Imperials as being more expensive than the Rebels. The massive Imperial Star Destroyer-II costs a tremendous 120 base points. The difference between the ISD-II's and ISD-I's dice pools is so high, with the changing of black dice from longer range blues and reds, that it really makes the ISD-II far more useful for its points. Really, if you want your ISD to be all it can be, you must go with the more expensive option. On the other hand, Rebels have a much flexible option in their large ship. The MC80 Command Cruiser and Assault Cruiser vary only a very little bit. What I find funny is that I believe the cheaper Command Cruiser is the better option of the two. And, from what I've seen from gaming days, many Rebels are in agreement. The flexibility of having an Offensive and Defensive upgrade slot is very nice for this ship, as well as retaining a higher Squadron value. The Command Cruiser can easily command 5 squadrons with the Expanded Hangers perk, while the Assault Cruiser (then nearly at the same cost compared to the Command variant + Expanded Hangers) can only manager 3 squadrons. Trade-off? The Assault swaps one blue die for one red die on the side arc and front arc (though the front doesn't matter, since you should never be shooting out of it anyhow) and gets 2 blues for its anti-squadron rather than 1 blue and 1 black. Whoopty-friggin-do. So, Command Cruiser's 106 points vs. the ISD-II's 120. There are similar comparisons on nearly every level: the Corvette vs Raider, VSD vs AFmkII... the only comparison that is cheaper is between the GSD and the MC30c. However, with the problems detailed below, you'll soon see why the GSD's cheaper cost is sort of a moot point.

So, Rebels are cheaper. How does that support Ackbar's brokenness? There are two answers, one more obvious, and the other more subtle. The first answer, the more obvious of the two, is this: more rebel ships, more red dice from Ackbar. Fairly simple there, not gonna explain that further.

Here's where we start looking at the underlying problem. Both Rebel and Imperial lists can manage fitting in 4 ships rather easily, and still have a decent amount of fighter support. One large ship, one medium ship, and two small ships, for instance (or, in the Imperial case, the medium ship, usually the VSD, is replaced by a more similarly costed Demolisher GSD). The problem here starts to develop when you look at threat ranges. Both the GSD and the Raider, making up half of the Imperial fleet, are short range ships with rather delicate frames. While the GSD was a bulldog in Wave-I, and could take a beating from anything the other side could throw at it, it simply cannot handle fire of that magnitude coming from the newer ships. By the time it gets into range, it's likely dead. Only the hero of the Imperial Navy, the Demolisher, could get into range. However, he's quite likely to die after one round of being that close to the Rebels' wall of broadsides. This leaves the Imperials with two long-range options with which to combat the Rebels: the ISD and the VSD, both of which are more expensive than their Rebel counterparts. The Rebels, on the other hand, have an easy go of it; with their long range, they can sit back, skirt the edge of the board, and force the Imperials to come to them. And, with the way our Armada tactics work (shoot then scoot) it really is very easy for them to do this. The Rebel player is almost guaranteed first strike in Wave-II, and makes darn good use of it with Ackbar and the numerous support upgrades available.

Summary for that last bit: Rebels can sit back, wait for Imperials to move within range, and then unleash their massive broadsides with impunity.

Okay, so, what sort of firepower are we talking about here? How can I, commander of a fearsome ISD, be worried about a Mon-Cal's firepower. Well, let's take a look. With Ackbar and a Concentrate Fire command, that MC80 is gonna be tossing six red dice my way. Each red has a 62% chance of dealing out damage, with 12.5% of its hits having a chance to be double-hits. On six reds then, you're looking at 4 or 5 damage. Woe to you if the rebel player rolls hot, of course. While normally red dice have the issue of having only one accuracy and two blanks, Home One takes good use of this by changing one of your results to an Accuracy for free. Change a blank to an accuracy? Yeah, that'll hurt. Take away your opponent's brace, and put a nice dent in that scary ISD's shields. Oh, and, don't forget, with that Turbolaser slot free, the MC80 can afford to fill it with an XI7 upgrade; most of that damage will be staying on the ISD's front arc.

What's worse is: that's not the least of your worries!

Following up are a pair of AFmkIIBs. Each one also tosses out 3 red dice base. With Ackbar and Concentrate Fire, they're also doing 6 reds each. But, now there's a bonus: with their Evade defense tokens, they can take advantage of Turbolaser Reroute Circuits, and add 2 damage to their rolls, 6-7 damage (though now it can be mitigated by Redirects, since they won't have the XI7 upgrade). Still, get rid of that brace. Even if the ISD has Electronic Countermeasures to allow it to use one of its braces, it'll still have taken 13 damage between the 3 ships. More than enough to strip it bare.

Alright, if ya'll ain't got the picture yet: Rebels control the board, alpha-strike when the Imperials move in range, and enjoy life.

Now, I'm not all doom-and-gloom! I do have a solution to propose. Our amazing friend, Rhymer. Yep, it is time to spam the Rhymer-ball, people!

Consider, if you will: The best way to beat these Rebels is to beat them at their own game: out-range them. With Ackbar in most Rebel lists, the Rebels will be maximizing their ships and minimizing their fighters. Because of this, the Rhymer Ball has a greater chance of doing some major damage. Even better, because all of our Imperial fighters and bombers are nice and fast, we can command them from outside of the Rebels' range. Take back the alpha-strike! Swarm the enemy with bombers and fighters, and make Ackbar rue the day he tried to out-gun the Imperial Navy.

Akbar fallacy 101: Akbar and EA are not comparable

Akbar is essentially guaranteeing a double-arc shot all the time, while EA can add damage to a double-arc shot. He does not increase the maximum damage a fleet can put out; rather maxes their damage while allowing them to stick to their broadsides, which really capitalizes on their mobility

the way to beat it is diving into the front arcs, where broadside ships suck all sorts of ass. IF you're not using squadrons (which akbar has no innate defense against and is expensive), mobility will win the day especially if you can block him

Here! Here!

Home One does not work on itself.

Rhymer Ballz are extremely good and some might say (myself included) that he offers the best squadron utility in the game. I have been playing/testing Ackbar since before wave 2 was out and at first he was devastating mainly because no one realized how powerful he can be. Now his power level has not changed but any large squadron build built smartly from either faction will ruin his day. It is like anything in this game, smart players will figure out a way to get around anything. If you depend too much on one upgrade to make your fleet when you lose that upgrade your strategies fall apart. The trick is to make an Ackbar build that isnt dependent on him and that win games without him. I will be testing a build like that this weekend at our local store championships. In addition people seem to think that Ackbar is the only logical choice for the rebels and I would argue that both Dodonna and Mon Mothma paired with the right ships are just as devastating as Ackbar but in a less direct way.

Home One does not work on itself.

Akbar fallacy 101: Akbar and EA are not comparable

Akbar is essentially guaranteeing a double-arc shot all the time, while EA can add damage to a double-arc shot. He does not increase the maximum damage a fleet can put out; rather maxes their damage while allowing them to stick to their broadsides, which really capitalizes on their mobility

the way to beat it is diving into the front arcs, where broadside ships suck all sorts of ass. IF you're not using squadrons (which akbar has no innate defense against and is expensive), mobility will win the day especially if you can block him

2) those "front arcs" are the smallest arcs in the game. With the side arcs encompassing almost 260° or more of the Btoadsiders arcs

3) it Is extremely simple to slightly stagger your broadsides so every front arc is in niebors side

Home One does not work on itself.

???

It lends accuracies to other ships, not itself.

That's what he means.

If I were a rebel only player my first reply would be remember Large Base ship you were complaining about being so expensive? There is a simple 7 point upgrade that essentially doubles it's damage output that isn't available to me.

Also the first time you use Vader with an ISD to re-roll 3 damage into 7 you will realize the imperials have ways to increase damage as well.

Never mind Screed being the only way in the game to guarantee crits to prock crit effects.

The only thing I dislike about Ackbar is that he can encourage a certain lazy style of list building/playing that probably punishes inexperienced players harder than any other commander.

Each faction has different things available to them that the other faction is jealous of. One reason I play both sides.

Its more repeated-ness to me...

Basically, it sounds like Imperials are saying "This must be what it felt like to play Rebels in Wave One."

Even if it is as bad as its made out... (And threads like this are in direct opposition to threads like Home one is Outdated) Then I'll be corrected come Wave 3, if Wave 2 was anything to be learned from.

There are so many differences of opinions depending on where you look, and who is saying it... The one thing we need to do as a player base is be aware of the differences of the way the game is played in different location, and not give undue weight to certain opinions...

For example, I watched a Demolisher last night, roll up to an AFMK-II with Ackbar, and obliterate it in one round of shooting, from Pristine to Dead.

Am I saying that Demolisher is OP and should be changed? No.
But its something that should be factored in. No-one gets anywhere with absolute definitive statements when there are readily available opposable opinions out there...

The Loud Voice is Heard. But that doesn't mean its the only one out there.

Here! Here!

So. . . Yea. . . I don't agree with this that Gladiator or Ackbar is or was as powerful as people thought. Sure he is strong but he is not the Alpha and the Omega of Armada.

Each meta will come up with different Tactics

Here! Here!

Oh shush you. Get better ^_~

So. . . Yea. . . I don't agree with this that Gladiator or Ackbar is or was as powerful as people thought. Sure he is strong but he is not the Alpha and the Omega of Armada.

Each meta will come up with different Tactics

I don't entirely agree with your analysis on the Assault Cruiser. The lack of an offensive retrofit isn't the problem per se (Expanded Hangers is a trap- You should be spreading out your squadron commands across as many ships as possible), so much as the second defensive retrofit's value is greatly reduced by the XI7 vs. Advanced Projectors reversal. If the Assault Cruiser could equip two strong Defensive Retrofits, it would see more play. But there isn't really a good complement to ECM anymore, so we don't see them.

Also, Concentrated Fire on Medium and Large ships is a wasted command most of the time. Any ship with a Squadron value of 2 or higher will do more damage by activating squadrons than by adding an extra die*. Or in the early turns if you really don't need a squadron command you can stock up on tokens which will usually be worth more in a critical turn by allowing you to double arc/recover 3 shields/discard 2 damage cards.

*Activating two Tie Interceptors and attacking a ship will do as much average damage with the same probabilities as a black die. If you activate any squadron with a better battery armament, or activate a third squadron, you're expected damage to an enemy ship is greater. Or you're doing more damage to enemy squadrons, which means your squadrons kill more things/die slower, leading to you doing more damage by having your squadrons in later turns if you win the squadron conflict or just losing fewer ships if you lose the squadron engagements.

For example, I watched a Demolisher last night, roll up to an AFMK-II with Ackbar, and obliterate it in one round of shooting, from Pristine to Dead.

Am I saying that Demolisher is OP and should be changed? No.

Here! Here!

Oh shush you. Get better ^_~

So. . . Yea. . . I don't agree with this that Gladiator or Ackbar is or was as powerful as people thought. Sure he is strong but he is not the Alpha and the Omega of Armada.

Each meta will come up with different Tactics

so my problem isn't beating ackbar, I have a decent win ratio. My problem is every other rebel commander is now EASY to beat (and I'm talking 10-0) of they don't have ackbar

Ackbar has made the Rebels more powerful, but there are solutions out there and they vary in type. Let's start at the easy level.

Take 2 ISD-II with Motti add a nice fat Fireball backed up by boosted comms. Spice the ISD's with ECM and Gunnery Team (Intel Officer if you like) and pour it on. 4-5 Firesprays with Rymer is a HUGE threat to any ship and so are the ISD's.

Don't under estimate the role of the Gladiator, true, they wilt a little easier now so don't be subtle. Run them up close, quickly, use Screed and APT's, crits cripple ships quickly and a couple a turn straight to hull will really mount up. 5 Red vs 4 - 6 Black depending on angle and the Black's are getting it done. Use repair commands on the way in.

An ISD-II kitted out and 2 Glads with Rhymer support is a nasty list. Use the much forgotten Insidious. Lobbing Black dice at rear from medium range will make that rebel think.

Use the upgrades that help with damage. Intel Officer and NK-7's with Xi-7's no defense tokens = max damage going through. Overload Pulse on an ISD sets up the Glads to pour in damage, the enemy either uses the token and loses it or saves it and takes full damage.

Play the objectives. Precision Strike and Superior Positions are both great for the Imperials ability to deliver damage and make bonus points and Fleet Ambush can force the Rebel to break up there gun line.

No doubt, side arc Rebels at range are formidable, but they can be beaten, just not the old way of "charge" straight at them....

Home One does not work on itself.

???

It lends accuracies to other ships, not itself.

That's what he means.

Yeah, I knew what he meant, but had never read the card that way. In fact, I think everyone in my FLGS missed it. Yikes!

Ackbar has made the Rebels more powerful, but there are solutions out there and they vary in type. Let's start at the easy level.

Take 2 ISD-II with Motti add a nice fat Fireball backed up by boosted comms. Spice the ISD's with ECM and Gunnery Team (Intel Officer if you like) and pour it on. 4-5 Firesprays with Rymer is a HUGE threat to any ship and so are the ISD's.

Don't under estimate the role of the Gladiator, true, they wilt a little easier now so don't be subtle. Run them up close, quickly, use Screed and APT's, crits cripple ships quickly and a couple a turn straight to hull will really mount up. 5 Red vs 4 - 6 Black depending on angle and the Black's are getting it done. Use repair commands on the way in.

An ISD-II kitted out and 2 Glads with Rhymer support is a nasty list. Use the much forgotten Insidious. Lobbing Black dice at rear from medium range will make that rebel think.

Use the upgrades that help with damage. Intel Officer and NK-7's with Xi-7's no defense tokens = max damage going through. Overload Pulse on an ISD sets up the Glads to pour in damage, the enemy either uses the token and loses it or saves it and takes full damage.

Play the objectives. Precision Strike and Superior Positions are both great for the Imperials ability to deliver damage and make bonus points and Fleet Ambush can force the Rebel to break up there gun line.

No doubt, side arc Rebels at range are formidable, but they can be beaten, just not the old way of "charge" straight at them....

I have found that ISD-II with Xi7's and Vader punch enough damage through to be a HUGE threat.

One just has to do it right and this is where my tactics video on both sides of this will come in.

Its more repeated-ness to me...

Basically, it sounds like Imperials are saying "This must be what it felt like to play Rebels in Wave One."

Even if it is as bad as its made out... (And threads like this are in direct opposition to threads like Home one is Outdated) Then I'll be corrected come Wave 3, if Wave 2 was anything to be learned from.

There are so many differences of opinions depending on where you look, and who is saying it... The one thing we need to do as a player base is be aware of the differences of the way the game is played in different location, and not give undue weight to certain opinions...

For example, I watched a Demolisher last night, roll up to an AFMK-II with Ackbar, and obliterate it in one round of shooting, from Pristine to Dead.

Am I saying that Demolisher is OP and should be changed? No.

But its something that should be factored in. No-one gets anywhere with absolute definitive statements when there are readily available opposable opinions out there...

The Loud Voice is Heard. But that doesn't mean its the only one out there.

It's virtually imposible for a demolisher kill a non damaged mk2 from 1 shot. 4 +1 blacks are a max of 10 damage; 3 shields (2 rear) plus redirect (3 more shields) + 6 hull it's a min of 11 damage to kill and then you have to account the brace. Don't say things that are not true. Also 10 damage with 5 black dice will be like what less than 2% possibility?.

Its more repeated-ness to me...

Basically, it sounds like Imperials are saying "This must be what it felt like to play Rebels in Wave One."

Even if it is as bad as its made out... (And threads like this are in direct opposition to threads like Home one is Outdated) Then I'll be corrected come Wave 3, if Wave 2 was anything to be learned from.

There are so many differences of opinions depending on where you look, and who is saying it... The one thing we need to do as a player base is be aware of the differences of the way the game is played in different location, and not give undue weight to certain opinions...

For example, I watched a Demolisher last night, roll up to an AFMK-II with Ackbar, and obliterate it in one round of shooting, from Pristine to Dead.

Am I saying that Demolisher is OP and should be changed? No.

But its something that should be factored in. No-one gets anywhere with absolute definitive statements when there are readily available opposable opinions out there...

The Loud Voice is Heard. But that doesn't mean its the only one out there.

It's virtually imposible for a demolisher kill a non damaged mk2 from 1 shot. 4 +1 blacks are a max of 10 damage; 3 shields (2 rear) plus redirect (3 more shields) + 6 hull it's a min of 11 damage to kill and then you have to account the brace. Don't say things that are not true. Also 10 damage with 5 black dice will be like what less than 2% possibility?.

It is not impossible. Assault Proton Torpedoes, Assault Concussion Missiles, Opening Salvo, Most Wanted, Concentrate Fire, Expanded Launchers, Rapid Reload and ramming. What all of those have in common is that they can they push extra damage through and can lead to some hellish damage being dealt.

He did say 1 round of shooting, not 1 attack. That means a Demo smash.

10 damage from a Gladiator is actually common, with Screed and Ordnance Experts it can happen often.

It's virtually imposible for a demolisher kill a non damaged mk2 from 1 shot. 4 +1 blacks are a max of 10 damage; 3 shields (2 rear) plus redirect (3 more shields) + 6 hull it's a min of 11 damage to kill and then you have to account the brace. Don't say things that are not true. Also 10 damage with 5 black dice will be like what less than 2% possibility?.

Wow. Okay, twice day, I've gotten fairly aggressive kickback for something I've posted... but oh well, soldier on...

There is no need to be that aggressive.

Please take a Look at what I actually said. Perhaps I was a little loose in my wording, but I certainly consider it this way:

One Round of shooting. One Round = 2 Attacks. It Double-Arc'd it.

And before it hits that point, by screamed in, I meant it had positioned itself well enough, forcing the enemy activation elsewhere that it was able to do it quickly and cleanly without taking fire - NOT that it attempted to fire twice after moving.

If you doubt it beyond that, then please, refer to Clontroper5 above. As he did it. I'm sure if he has it, he'll be happy to share the Vassal Log file that showed it...

Haha, god forbid someone jump on you for wording something loosely.

Home One does not work on itself.

???

It lends accuracies to other ships, not itself.

That's what he means.

Yeah, I knew what he meant, but had never read the card that way. In fact, I think everyone in my FLGS missed it. Yikes!

Home One and Ackbar have to be two of the most abused upgrades from miss-reading and/or innocent misplay.

I have to watch rebel players like a hawk so they don't casually take a front arc shot then try to add ackbar dice to a follow up broadside.

I wish I was making it up but I actually had a rebel player do this on Home One MC80, and then modified his broadside with the accuracy. I did not notice till after he moved and then I was like...wait a minute, let me read those upgrades....

Even with a double arc it was a **** good shoot. No offense or was being agressive only stating facts, I'm not english native and don't know if some of my phrases were being over agressive.

From my experience even a demolisher thant could land front of an mk2 with double arc; would need some good rolling to kill it in 3 shoots (aproach, and double arc). The mk2 usually where equiped with AP but even without it with brace and redirects and it's natural shielding it could survive at least 50% time (as the glad can't get x17 and intel officer are not usually equiped in that ship).

As the OP as said empire right now lacks the firepower or tanking power to go for an ackbar list. And it's soo much easier to broadside with that huge arcs than mantain front arc with the poor movility of the imperial fleet making the nav command almost an obligation.

The main point of what I'm trying to get at is that, with the current meta, Rebels are able to quite easily control the engagement. Their long range allows them to out-shoot Imperials, who will have to suffer enemy firepower without being able to answer it that turn. The congo-line of Rebels moving parallel to their board edge can move at speed one and simply play the waiting game. Sure, you can try to get in front of them or behind them, but the enormous wide arcs make it very difficult to fit in. A large base ship like the ISD won't be able to do it. The GSD and Raider could both do it, but both of them are short range ships, and dancing them into that position will be extremely dangerous. And, as Ly said, it's not hard for rebel players to stagger their arcs and protect each-other's blind spots.

How I feel Ackbar should have been: add 1 red to broadsides, but not limited to only firing out of them. I feel that would have put him on a comparable level of power to Admiral Tarkin, who shares his point cost.