Speaking as a relative newcomer to the game: what are the limits of AI in the game system, and the objects they can be contained in?

A bit of background:

I am a massive fan of Iain M. Banks' Culture series, and in particular his Minds and Ships. For more information, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_%28The_Culture%29 . While I'm not looking for a direct transposition of this entity into the game (Minds/Ships are nearly omniscient in some circumstances), I am wondering what possibilities exist for having sentient, capable, autonomous ships and/or stations in the game.

I guess I am partly interested in having a Banksian Ship be a prominent NPC in my current campaign, but am unsure about how to finesse it.

To be clear: I am not proposing PCs be Minds, Ships, or Drones. Any PC who wanted to be a Droid would be a standard Star Wars Droid. But I *am* interested in how a Banksian Mind/Ship might work in a game. Would such an entity be too immersion-breaking? If a PC-owned ship were to be inhabited by such a Mind, would it be too powerful? I would obviously have to impose strict limits on this type of entity: it would have to be unique, or part of a rare "race" of ships, or representative of a phenomenon that was not reproducible.

My motivation in creating such an NPC would be as a kind of Avengers "Jarvis"-like presence who could be a helpful guide and companion, possibly able to be present off-ship via a Banksian Drone-entity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Drones ).

I think anything is possible. Sepatatists had vulture droid fighters.

I don't think there are droid-controlled starships (I had forgotten about the vulture droids) out there - even the Separatists used droid crew, and even these operated controls that biologicals could use, rather than plugging in directly.

My GM did tell me IG-88 had a ship that it basically downloaded itself into when piloting. I don't know if that's canon, legend or specific to the campaign we were playing.

I don't think there are droid-controlled starships out there - even the Separatists used droid crew, and even these operated controls that biologicals could use, rather than plugging in directly.

My GM did tell me IG-88 had a ship that it basically downloaded itself into when piloting. I don't know if that's cannon, legend or specific to the campaign we were playing.

I guess that is close to what I am describing -- although in the Banksian universe, the Ship is the Primary Entity, and uses Drones (which are like droids) as an extension of its consciousness.

Mechanically, is there any reason an NPC Droid could *not* be a ship?

I don't think there are droid-controlled starships out there - even the Separatists used droid crew, and even these operated controls that biologicals could use, rather than plugging in directly.

My GM did tell me IG-88 had a ship that it basically downloaded itself into when piloting. I don't know if that's cannon, legend or specific to the campaign we were playing.

I guess that is close to what I am describing -- although in the Banksian universe, the Ship is the Primary Entity, and uses Drones (which are like droids) as an extension of its consciousness.

Mechanically, is there any reason an NPC Droid could *not* be a ship?

Storywise the universe might be a little phobic about droid controlled anything though, tech wise it's no leap.

Something from the original trilogy just popped into my head. Han tells C3PO he needs the protocol droid to "talk" to the Falcon. Afterwards, 3PO tells him the Falcon speaks a peculiar dialect. Perhaps ships routinely have integrated A.I., they're just less "human" in their thinking than anthropomorphic Droids.

Mechanically, is there any reason an NPC Droid could *not* be a ship?

Not imo, particulay for things like well traveled hyperspace lanes and massive cargo haulers.

Storywise the universe might be a little phobic about droid controlled anything though, tech wise it's no leap.

Actually this phobia is a story hook I'm counting on -- one where the Droid Ship is on the run from an Anti-AI Inquisition sponsored by a planet that was devastated by Separatist "experimental AI" Droid forces during the Clone Wars.

Something from the original trilogy just popped into my head. Han tells C3PO he needs the protocol droid to "talk" to the Falcon. Afterwards, 3PO tells him the Falcon speaks a peculiar dialect. Perhaps ships routinely have integrated A.I., they're just less "human" in their thinking than anthropomorphic Droids.

That's a great point.

Some sources note the Falcon as having not just the stock "ship's brain", but three additional "slave" brains -- from a military astromech, a slicer droid, and a transport vessel's brain -- for added processing and memory, in order to handle all the modified, retrofitted, and randomly-sourced systems.

This seems to be one of those setting details that's been largely ignored in the RPGs... evidently, many ships have a "droid brain" to help manage all the systems. In some, that "brain" doesn't include hyperspace astrogation functions (again evidently, from the need for an astromech).

There's precedent within this system, actually...

p55 Far Horizons - YQ-400 Monitor-Class System Patrol Ship...

Some sources note the Falcon as having not just the stock "ship's brain", but three additional "slave" brains -- from a military astromech, a slicer droid, and a transport vessel's brain -- for added processing and memory, in order to handle all the modified, retrofitted, and randomly-sourced systems.

This seems to be one of those setting details that's been largely ignored in the RPGs... evidently, many ships have a "droid brain" to help manage all the systems. In some, that "brain" doesn't include hyperspace astrogation functions (again evidently, from the need for an astromech).

I can totally see why the RPG would have left this out: it massively complicates things when all of a sudden every object around you has the potential for sentience.

I do plan on treating this ship as a special case (or a representative of a Special Race), but it's good to know there are at least some mechanical precedents in the lore.

AI is just droid brain, which is included in must sophisticated tech that calculates, ships included. So you have it, they just need a voice box, as they talk binery (as per example above, needing a translator).

Also, droids who oporate space stations is no biggy, The Wheel has one and CIS have droids controling droids

We already have a couple of droid vehicles, in Far Horizons. Of course the CIS used almost exclusively droid controlled fighters, and Legends mentioned some of their capital ships had droid brains. The Empire even has a droid-brain operated TIE fighter.

The thing about SW compared to other science fiction is the way it treats its AI -- casually. Other fictions treat it as momentous, rare, complex, unique and/or taboo. In Star Wars, AI is in everything to litter droids to warships, and nobody bats an eye or thinks its awe-inspiring. I'm not familiar with the fiction from your links, but much of what makes those kinds of stories interesting, with an AI controlling a warship, relies on the characters viewing it as one-of-a-kind or unique. In Star Wars, a character might go 'oh neat', but not treat it as some amazing breakthrough, if they'd even care (or maybe they'd care in the sense of 'what yo-yo put a droid in control of a Star Destroyer?').

Not to say it's a bad idea or anything, but it loses a lot of its shock value.

Some sources note the Falcon as having not just the stock "ship's brain", but three additional "slave" brains -- from a military astromech, a slicer droid, and a transport vessel's brain -- for added processing and memory, in order to handle all the modified, retrofitted, and randomly-sourced systems.

This seems to be one of those setting details that's been largely ignored in the RPGs... evidently, many ships have a "droid brain" to help manage all the systems. In some, that "brain" doesn't include hyperspace astrogation functions (again evidently, from the need for an astromech).

I can totally see why the RPG would have left this out: it massively complicates things when all of a sudden every object around you has the potential for sentience.

I do plan on treating this ship as a special case (or a representative of a Special Race), but it's good to know there are at least some mechanical precedents in the lore.

It's not just every SW RPG (well, not sure about Saga, that's the one I missed) that has ignored it... the movies and much of the EU fiction always glossed right over it as a background detail and nothing more.

I am a massive fan of Iain M. Banks' Culture series, and in particular his Minds and Ships.

Likewise, read them all, he was my favourite SF writer.

Banks' Minds are far beyond biological sentience/sapience/etc, so it would be difficult to incorporate except as a one-off or accident. A rogue Mind, given enough resources, would pretty much take over the galaxy.

I am a massive fan of Iain M. Banks' Culture series, and in particular his Minds and Ships.

Likewise, read them all, he was my favourite SF writer.

Banks' Minds are far beyond biological sentience/sapience/etc, so it would be difficult to incorporate except as a one-off or accident. A rogue Mind, given enough resources, would pretty much take over the galaxy.

Yeah, that's the one thing I have to be careful of. But if you remember the opening of Consider Phlebas, with the rogue Ship on the run from Idirian forces...that's more what I have in mind. Something that's trying to hide, is being persecuted for being what it is, etc.

But now I'm thinking about Idirians as badguys. Teehee! Let the villain designing begin!

I don't see why you couldn't. Once upon a time, back in college, I was running a game where an NPC droid and the group's Jedi were having an argument if the droid was alive. They got to "according to the definition of life, you have to be able to reproduce!" argument, which is what the droid did to the player's ship - spin off his core programming into a new, integrated AI out of the nav computer.

Mind you, the droid's timing could have been better - when Hope came online and became self aware, the ship dropped out of hyperspace and was stranded in deep space.

Despite the bump in the road, the group thought that Hope was pretty cool. They integrated her into all the ships systems and installed holographic projectors all over the ship so they had an avatar they could talk to instead of just shouting at the bulkheads. After that, the Jedi just gave up and went back to drinking himself into a stupor.

I don't see why you couldn't. Once upon a time, back in college, I was running a game where an NPC droid and the group's Jedi were having an argument if the droid was alive. They got to "according to the definition of life, you have to be able to reproduce!" argument, which is what the droid did to the player's ship - spin off his core programming into a new, integrated AI out of the nav computer.

Mind you, the droid's timing could have been better - when Hope came online and became self aware, the ship dropped out of hyperspace and was stranded in deep space.

Despite the bump in the road, the group thought that Hope was pretty cool. They integrated her into all the ships systems and installed holographic projectors all over the ship so they had an avatar they could talk to instead of just shouting at the bulkheads. After that, the Jedi just gave up and went back to drinking himself into a stupor.

Very cool idea!

I don't think there are droid-controlled starships out there - even the Separatists used droid crew, and even these operated controls that biologicals could use, rather than plugging in directly.

My GM did tell me IG-88 had a ship that it basically downloaded itself into when piloting. I don't know if that's cannon, legend or specific to the campaign we were playing.

I guess that is close to what I am describing -- although in the Banksian universe, the Ship is the Primary Entity, and uses Drones (which are like droids) as an extension of its consciousness.

Mechanically, is there any reason an NPC Droid could *not* be a ship?

Well Phantom Menace's end battle was about taking out the droid control ship, so remote operation of drones is pretty much the same thing in my mind.

In the old WEG d6 game I had a character with a Lobot type cyber implant. His ship had a droid brain as the co-pilot, and I would communicate with droid co-pilot to do things like start up the engines as we were running away from something, pop out the heavy repeating blaster to gun down any pursuant, fly to us to get out of tricky situations etc.

It was very handy! I might recreate him for EoE....

IG88A, in Legends is basically a Mind, without all the cool toys Culture minds get from their tech base. He copies himself over into IG88 B,C and D, and was working on a plan to control the galaxy. In legends he uploads himself to the second death star, shortly before it gets blown up.

As a disclaimer, I don't want to nor intend to be a wet blanket, but if it accidentally happens, I apologise.

I've been in games with a focus on AI related matters and they've been fun. Personally, other then the needs for a particular adventure I'm running I tend to steer away from them as major plot/antagonists in the long run. If a "cylon level event" ever happened, it would be short and organics would be on the losing end. Droids are in every part of society and trying to run a high droid paranoia game "doesn't feel very Star Wars".

That being said, I'm running a Voyager/Lost in Space/ Battlestar Galactica styled game.. Which could be accused of the same. It's your game and if your players are having fun, that's what matters, just be careful that your players are on the same page as you with what you're doing. With my troupe, if their perceptions of what a Star Wars game should feel like isn't met I get a lot of "why didn't you just run a homebrew game? I thought we were playing STAR WARS." Warning them upfront that'd they'll be spending a lot of time exploring unknown space saved me a lot of grief and allowed them to make characters designed for such a setting.

Overall it sounds neat and you should keep us updated on how it pans out.

There is no reason you can't build your ship as a droid - there is already the droid autopilot available - all you're doing is upgrading it to full droid status. You have some questions to answer if one of your players wants to be the ship:

1) Can a droid clone itself - if so, under what conditions and to what type of system. I would probably recommend against this from a play perspective, though possible for a nemesis. Even then, I would say you would need the same degree of system - IE an astromech can only clone to another 2nd degree droid brain. Anything is, of course, possible with the right combination of successes and advantages - say 3 successes or 1 advantage to change degree

2) Can a Droid migrate - I am much more likely to let this one be acceptable for a variety of reason, though I would still limit it to the same degree of droid.

3) Are there drone systems available & if so, how much & how good - if you're ship character can't migrate to another body, then can it remote control one? If so, are their penalties? What range is available?

There are a multitude of other questions to answer also: when you change chassis, do only your physical attributes change or do your mental ones as well? IE, if an R1 unit migrates to an R6 chassis, does the advanced processing power of the R6 increase it's intelligence and cunning? Given that you spend xp on the stats at the beginning of the game, how is this going to effect the play? IE, "I built my droid character with only 40xp in stats & now I've upgraded to an Imperial Death Droid and my Dex and Strength should both be 6."

As a GM, I would probably allow a character to remodel the physical stats as though they were re-buying - as long as the initial buy stays the same, they can change stats at will by changing chassis. Remember that droids can also have multiple cybernetic upgrades, so bumping INT by changing chassis would be like slotting in a co-processor for faster responses - I would keep to those limits.

Odd things to think about - a droid pilot that's part of the ship doesn't have a Dex to use for piloting or Heavy Weapons, but then again it is the ship - I would probably use Piloting (INT) rather than Piloting(Dex) because there is no need to move clunky meat controls - things happen as fast as the droid can think it. Cunning would also work since it's often used as a measure of how fast you think on your feet.