So I'm starting to think there is a strong correlation between Imperial Squadrons and Rebel squadrons being sold out everywhere and the evolution in tactics now that Wave 2 is reaching the far reaches of the galaxy. You honestly didn't think that SpaceX was just launching communications satellites right? :-)

Anyway having gotten pounded on with a squadron heavy list in the last tournament I played in, just trying to think of a good counter to facing that kind of list besides lots of squadrons. Least with the Gladiator there's a 2 blue die option for shooting at squadrons.

Opinions how to best counter a squadron counter list?

atm, it seems like more squadrons.

I'm coming to think this is actually something unhealthy in wave2.

atm, it seems like more squadrons.

I'm coming to think this is actually something unhealthy in wave2.

You're well beyond beginning to think that, based on some of your previous posts, mate

To go to the OP:

Squadrons are one option.

Looking at Ship_Alternates that have multiple Dice for Anti-Squadron - like AFMK-IIAs over Bs, and Neb-B Escorts over Support Refits... Glad-IIs over Glad-Is... Raiders..

Those in conjunction with Ruthless Strategists... Very quickly burns through 3-4 Hull Enemy Squadrons.

And Heaven Forbid, Cluster Bombs on strategically important things.

There are plenty of options. People are just reluctant to pursue a lot of them... I think that's partly because Squadrons, coming from "All Ships, All The Time" are Shiny and New now in comparison, with Intel and such supporting them.

All of those Neutralise Squadrons directly - if you want to still play the Tie up game, then you're looking at spike damage at important bits and pieces... For the Imperial Side, that could be a Flight-Controlled IG-88 Dashing in to Snipe out Jan Ors... Or Wedge and his buddies laying on the Damage to Strike the Jumpmaster or Dengar out of the Fray, letting you then Tie up the Squadrons the old fashioned way.

There's a lot of adjustment to be done - even for those players like Me that believe that Squadrons are an awesome suppliment to ships, have always used copious amounts of squadrons, and its probably a **** good thing that I'm limited to 30% of my list...

As imperials, use Raider I with Instigator and Quad Laser Turrets - move directly into the enemy swarm in order to stop them. In time, the engaged squadrons will kill the Raider but you will left some nasty damage there, too.

I'm 100% with Dras on this one.

For me, the resurgence of squadrons is a sign that the game was course-corrected in the right direction.

It always seemed to me the WORST sort of min-maxing that resulted in an entire aspect of the game being completely snipped out of viability during wave one. I relish the squadron game!

atm, it seems like more squadrons.

I'm coming to think this is actually something unhealthy in wave2.

Because all ship is healthy?

As imperials, use Raider I with Instigator and Quad Laser Turrets - move directly into the enemy swarm in order to stop them. In time, the engaged squadrons will kill the Raider but you will left some nasty damage there, too.

Can't Intel the raider also.

anti-squadron fire has long been an underestimated asset of many capital ships

the Neb-B Escort for Rebs is absolutely aces at slaughtering Ties. The Raider-1 w/ordnance experts, especially with initiative, can almost solo entire squadron compliments by itself

bring some tankier squadrons to keep enemies in place for your anti-squad ships to do their dirty work

Jan Oars will help your squads soak enemies; Mauler is exceptionally helpful against higher #s of enemies

Jan may even let us see a resurgence of X-wings over A-wings (dat escort + health), if YT-1300s do not take their place (speed is a very relevant issue)

I don't mean to derail the thread, but I was asking myself the same question as OP, though from a different perspective: assuming ships make poor anti-squadron work (they do, IMO), what's the most effective squadron setup one could use to ensure enemy squadron annihilation? By effective I also mean cost effective: in other words, what squadron setup is easy to use, doesn't eat up more than 60 -70 points, but ensures no fireball (or scurrg bomber, for that matters) leave the field alive?

I've been toying with a 4 squadron setup for Imps for the purpose stated above, and though theorically I'm satisfied with the outcome, I've never had a chance to try them in an actual game, so criticism is appreciated.

Setup is Vader + Tie adv + Mithel+ Fel, 66 points in all. One big perk is that's just 4 squads to activate, and you don't need to commit to squadron dials with multiple ships to make it work. It does 2 aoe damage on first activation, which is a lot since it can't be stopped except from Gallant Haven, which is rarely seen nowadays. Shooting is nice for a 4 squadrons team, and plenty of defense tokens should ensure it surviving unfortunate enemy alpha. Best use would be with Admiral Chirenau or Dengar, but both are costly and don't quite fit the theme of "best bang for the buck". Opinions?

ships don't make poor anti-squadron work. That kind of thinking will let your opponent win more games over you

ships make low anti-squadron work per single attack, but they can attack every squadron in range. You can wipe out entire swathes of squadrons with the proper support.

Escort Nebs and Raider-1s are the ideal ships ito cost efficiency, but ISD-2s with nothing better to shoot at will have gunnery team to follow up a front-arc shot with an anti-squadron bombardment

The ISD-2 and the Raider-1 are both technically ships with 0 points invested in anti-squadron, as the upgrades you give them are equally effective v ships (g-teams; ordnance experts). They just happen to be really good at blowing up the **** things too

said anti-squad fire is many times easier to enable with your own squadrons pinning down enemy clumps for your capital ships to slice and dice

now, ships with just 1 AS shot do kind of suck at the role, but that's another story

My ISD has been laying down considerable AS fire recently.

It's not a substitute for good squadrons, but it can help turn the tide.

I think it's a mistake to think of it as Anti-Fighter squadrons or ships and instead you have to look at your total AS resources in your list... I don't know if it's as bad as this, but it seems like some people would skip shooting at squadrons with their ships, even if they had nothing else to shoot with.

Yes you may only score one hit on a fighter, but you can score one hit on 8 different fighters, which helps make them even easier for your own squadrons to finish off.

Between this thread and some others, it seems like some people are having issues coming to grips with how the game plays with Wave 2, and are under the mistaken opinion that something is wrong, that some combos are broken or given systems are too powerful.

But the truth is, we're finally playing the game as it was meant to be played... 400 point lists and large ships. So some change in people's thinking has to take place because what worked before may not work now.

In Wave 1, it was hard to kill fighters with ships, but that was at least partly due to it being a incomplete game still.

ships don't make poor anti-squadron work. That kind of thinking will let your opponent win more games over you

ships make low anti-squadron work per single attack, but they can attack every squadron in range. You can wipe out entire swathes of squadrons with the proper support.

Escort Nebs and Raider-1s are the ideal ships ito cost efficiency, but ISD-2s with nothing better to shoot at will have gunnery team to follow up a front-arc shot with an anti-squadron bombardment

The ISD-2 and the Raider-1 are both technically ships with 0 points invested in anti-squadron, as the upgrades you give them are equally effective v ships (g-teams; ordnance experts). They just happen to be really good at blowing up the **** things too

said anti-squad fire is many times easier to enable with your own squadrons pinning down enemy clumps for your capital ships to slice and dice

now, ships with just 1 AS shot do kind of suck at the role, but that's another story

I agree on the raw stats, but having tested the famed ord experts raider against squadrons, I found the biggest issue is positioning. Thing is, ships are less manouverable than squadrons, and with intel around it's not easy at all to pin enemy squadron down except if you're running a big bunch of squadrons yourself. But then again, what's the point of investing in anti squadron ships, if you still need many squadrons yourself? Of course you can happen to shoot to squadrons effectively, but what I'm saying is that this is an occurence, not something you plan ahead and manage to work out, and thus it isn't an """effective""" method of dealing with them.

Being largely inexperienced I might be wrong, but so far this is the impression I got.

you don't invest in anti-squadron ships

you invest in a Raider-1 with ordnance experts

this little bugger hurts capital ships (those blue dice are relevant regardless of what result they get), and they just so happen to murder the crap out of enemy squadrons

similarly, ISD-2s are ISD-2s that just so happen to have 2 anti-squadron dice and the gunnery teams to use them. Neb-B Escorts, meanwhile, double as rebel squadron support

such ships let you invest less in dedicated anti-squadron (such as interceptors) and more in more flexible squadrons, or less in squadrons in general

atm, it seems like more squadrons.

I'm coming to think this is actually something unhealthy in wave2.

Because all ship is healthy?

Actually playing with it. As a possibility it is healthy and interesting. It's also fun for people who don't care for squadrons.

Currently we are seeing more squadrons require more squadrons.

ships don't make poor anti-squadron work. That kind of thinking will let your opponent win more games over you

ships make low anti-squadron work per single attack, but they can attack every squadron in range. You can wipe out entire swathes of squadrons with the proper support.

Escort Nebs and Raider-1s are the ideal ships ito cost efficiency, but ISD-2s with nothing better to shoot at will have gunnery team to follow up a front-arc shot with an anti-squadron bombardment

The ISD-2 and the Raider-1 are both technically ships with 0 points invested in anti-squadron, as the upgrades you give them are equally effective v ships (g-teams; ordnance experts). They just happen to be really good at blowing up the **** things too

said anti-squad fire is many times easier to enable with your own squadrons pinning down enemy clumps for your capital ships to slice and dice

now, ships with just 1 AS shot do kind of suck at the role, but that's another story

I agree on the raw stats, but having tested the famed ord experts raider against squadrons, I found the biggest issue is positioning. Thing is, ships are less manouverable than squadrons, and with intel around it's not easy at all to pin enemy squadron down except if you're running a big bunch of squadrons yourself. But then again, what's the point of investing in anti squadron ships, if you still need many squadrons yourself? Of course you can happen to shoot to squadrons effectively, but what I'm saying is that this is an occurence, not something you plan ahead and manage to work out, and thus it isn't an """effective""" method of dealing with them.

Being largely inexperienced I might be wrong, but so far this is the impression I got.

It's something you need to work out as part of your overall list. If you're running AF's and Nebs anyways, then upgrading from a AF2B to an A, and from a Support to and Escort Neb costs about the same as a single squadron, and yet paired up with a minimal fighter screen gives you the ability to really take out fighters en masse. You can even plan on it, baiting fighters to come get your ships, tie them up with your CAP, and blast them ideally with double arc shots.

Whether you can do that, and still handle the enemy ships simultaneously, is what makes this game so fun. It can be a very effective tactic, but on the other hand your opponent may still out-think you (presenting simultaneous squadron and ship targets, for example) so it's not fool proof. But then again, nothing is - it's as viable a tactic as going squadron heavy, where your TIE interceptors may not be the most effective choice against an all-ship list. And the circle continues...

Against large number of squadrons, Ships come into their own for taking them out. Instead of shooting a ship with 5 dice, you get to shoot squadrons with 10+ dice!

AF A's instead of AF B's.

Escort Ned instead of Support.

etc etc

If the squadrons spread out however, you're screwed. Though imperial squadrons are less effective that way, so small mercies.

One point I think is germane to the discussion that I haven't seen raised yet: if you're looking to counter 100+ points of squadrons with ships, you have to treat them with the respect they deserve. I see so many comments on here talk about taking the anti-squadron shot "if you have nothing else to shoot at."

No no no, if you think you're going to burn down a mass of squadrons with your ships, that *is* what you have to shoot at. That's what you're maneuvering to do, that's what your commands are stacked for, and that's what you're prioritizing. If your adversary is running 100+ points of squadrons, he's relying on those things to win him the battle: treat them as such and kill them. Spend a CF dial on a crucial squadron shot. If you find yourself with a double AF2A arc shot on four Firesprays, or an anti-ship shot at a GSD that's not going to die anyway, you might want to focus on those Firesprays that are tearing you up every turn rather than the GSD that will hit you twice and then gtfo.

I'm not saying attacking squadrons is always the right choice, but ack-ack won't save you from squadrons if you never shoot them with it.

The VSD can use Warlord + H9 Turbolaser for a garunteed 1 point of damage point defense. This is the most reliable point defense outside a raider. The funniest part is it makes it the best ship for Quad Laser Turret and Ruthless Strategist. Two damage on the defense and attack. I run various combinations of this in my squadron heavy meta. It is actually highly effective!

If you don't like that you need anything with double dice point defense, gunnery team and a handful of shotgun rouges (agressor/yt). If someone is squadron heavey a token fighter screen of 4 fighters (unless it's Jan/3 Xwing) is not an answer.

My thought of the day. Jan and Dengar must always be the last squadron to move to avoid their buddies getting tied up. This means there is a moment when they are unescorted.

I might start taking a couple of yt2400's for this moment.

(Note I am an Imperial player almost exclusively, but my Rebel opponent has almost always run at least some squadrons.) Do not underestimate the stopping power of one, or even better two, Raider-1s with Ordnance Experts. Get a squadron in the arc of both ships, that's not-quite guaranteed four damage, six if you hit that particular one with Impetuous. In my opinion, Imperial fighter squadrons (excluding Rogues and Bombers) exist to cover space and add damage, not provide health to stop an opponent with more than a handful of the superior Rebel units. Use them to leap forward and apply dice to strategic targets, Jan Ors, Solo, Outrider, Wedge, etc., with the understanding that anything that isn't an Advanced is most probably doomed. My personal preference build is to run a pair of Raider-1s, with the two titles, OE, QLT if I feel like splurging, and APTs, as pickets in front of an ISD. Fighter squadrons that punch through are shredded, and the Raiders have the punch to seriously concern a Rebel commander. This still leaves enough points for a well-upgraded ISD, or a moderately upgraded ISD and a Rhymerball/Fireball. I have not had a chance to properly try this, but if you're really concerned about squadrons, run Raider-1s, OE, and EHB, run squadron dial, and two squadrons per Raider of your choice. If you spent way too much money on this game use Firesprays or Aggressors. Otherwise Interceptors and Advanced should do just fine. As with everything, you need to fly well and coordinate your units, but pull it off and you should have complete space superiority.

Fickle is on the spot when it comes to squadrons. On their own, anti-squadrons barrages are cute because most of them average 1 to 1.25 (if I still can do math on the blue + black dice ) on each squadron, which is far from copious.

Where they start to shine is when you combined 1, 2, 3, 4 ships with anti-squadron dice, or when you pair 1-2 ships with anti-squadron with a couple of fighters or fighter bombers. For fun, I had a game with 2 AFMK2 A and 2 Neb B Escorts with no squadrons (heresy !) at 400 points back in Wave 1. It wasn't an extremely competitive build (though I have to say I was more impressed than I thought by its performance), but the face of the enemy when he realized that hhe placed his Rhymerball in the field of fire of 3 of my 4 ships The constant pounding of the enemy was pretty fun ^^

A gladiator 2 with 2 TIE Advanced and ruthless strategist will help pin down some fighters (don't expect to take on 4+ fighters) while guaranteeing 1 damage for sure each time it barrages them (and obviously, the more you barrage the more it can take down).

What Wave 2 changed in terms of meta, and I think it's for the best, is that tying up the fighters is no longer a very viable strategy (not that it was previously thanks to Chirpy) due to the abundance of Intel and countering fighters will become both a game of tying and destroying.