Something I've been thinking about and would like to point out:

I like how conceptual the TIE Shuttle is. Many of the things like Long Range Scanners and the two Defender titles feel like very specific fixes, meant to add carefully crafted changes to the game. But the TIE Shuttle feels like the opposite, like we've been given a creative toy to come up with whatever nifty combos we can think up.

Just a pleasant thought I had...

Hmmmmmm, Gammas with Deadeye, Chimps, and Proton Torps? Yes, please.

Suddenly, everybody's chimpin'.

First squad I make with 'em is gonna be called '1,000 Typewriters'.

I wish I could like this more than once

Here let me get that for you

Sorry, but absolutely nothing. Totally unnecessary just like the tie advance correction.

They need to add PS level pilots across the board and forget about the war hammer fixes for every ship c

Let's just play the game. I need pilots, not alleged fixes

yeah no

the fixing of literally the worst ship in the game by far was very necessary

alternative is simply not playing the ship, which was and still is 100% an option

ditto defenders

in the bombers case, however, adding pilots is literally what they're doing

I can't wait to see titled vs. untitled defender battles. Given the sports season we could call it the Tie/D Bowl...

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

bombers are not getting fixed, actually

Tie Shuttle is a straight upgrade slot swap, and provides no benefit on its own

Long Range Scanners is a great buff to ordnance, but it comes with a significant drawback

Tie/x7, by contrast, knocks off points and gives a free evade token (not action). that's a fix

not fixing the Defender/Advance because they're old or something is just dumb. Gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff always and unequivocally

the viability of gameplay options matters far more than something as inconsequential as the time in which the ships were release either in lore or in the game

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

are you saying bombers have no place in a fight with dog fighters?

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

are you saying bombers have no place in a fight with dog fighters?

Bad comparison.

Never mix reality with your fantasy.

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

Fluffy EU/legends crap don't dictate what I fly. And the models in the game are at most 3 years old.

The game has changed since wave one, so FFG wants as many of the models to be as viable and fun as possible. When the Phantom needed a nerf it was nerfed. When no one was playing Vader or any Advanced it was fixed hard because it was needed. If you wanna go play nothing but Brobots or turretwing or what ever go ahead.

"Never mix reality with your fantasy." eh?

the irony is strong with this one

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

are you saying bombers have no place in a fight with dog fighters?

my that's a lovely K-wing

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

are you saying bombers have no place in a fight with dog fighters?

Hello, yes. While the WWII planes you posted were loaded with currents they still were not dog fighter and did sustain horrific casualties without fighter escort. Also note that FFG X-Wing bombers have not anti-air turrets.

Bad comparison.

Never mix reality with your fantasy.

K-wings don't have turrets? Y-wings don't have turrets? Once the Ghost drops even HWKs and Corvettes can be 'bombers'. I guess you also don't fly Lambdas because they aren't dogfighters either.

I'm starting to feel Talon rolled.

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

are you saying bombers have no place in a fight with dog fighters?

Hello, yes. While the WWII planes you posted were loaded with currents they still were not dog fighter and did sustain horrific casualties without fighter escort. Also note that FFG X-Wing bombers have not anti-air turrets.

Bad comparison.

Never mix reality with your fantasy.

K-wings don't have turrets? Y-wings don't have turrets? Once the Ghost drops even HWKs and Corvettes can be 'bombers'. I guess you also don't fly Lambdas because they aren't dogfighters either.

I'm starting to feel Talon rolled.

Lambada are shuttles, not bombers nor dog fighters. Their strength lies elsewhere. K- wings are late designs and do not equal y-wing. Not every ship needs a fix to modernize it.

It's not modernizing them, it's making them viable in the current tournament meta. The meta today is the most varied it has ever been thanks to FFG gradually tweaking all ships. What is with all the 'fix hate'?

Spend some time reading MJ's Mathwing posts. Some ships just need some help.

Interesting that you bring up WWII bombers.

Bombers were like herds of grazers with spines on their backs. They could try to fight off predators, but as soon as a lucky shot brought down one plane, that added extra blind spots to the others surrounding it in the formation. German pilots were very keen to find the doughnut holes and arcs of bombers in order to be able to attack unmolested. A real world case of arc dodging. Adding more guns (arcs) didn't fix the problem as it was still a case of a (relatively speaking) stationary target firing at very rapidly moving target that was itself enjoying a large lumbering object moving in a straight line.

My grandfather flew B-24s, 25s, and 26s over Germany. He told stories of the extents that they would go through to get flak or fighters away from their plane. They looted a bombed out clothing store for mannequins and put extra parachutes on them. When too much unwanted attention came their way, they would start throwing the dummies out to make the enemy pilots think they were bailing. A lot of scrap metal chunks welded together along with yet another spare chute produced what looked like a giant bomb. For kicks, they let it float out of the bomb bay over an area with heavy AA. Considering that both sides knew that the other was interested in making an atom bomb, it was interesting to see the flak stop cold as the Germans tried to figure out what was heading toward them.

The big thing that came about to give the bombers some relief was the P-51, as it had the range to escort the bombers and actually engage the enemy fighters on their terms.

^That's pretty amazing^

4 Gammas with LRS and Homing Missiles is 104 points (I assume Extra Munition).

Gamma (18) + Extra Munitions (2) + Homing Missile (5) = 25 pts.

Oh, the Pilot. I thought the Veteran, silly me.

I had completely disregarded TIE Bombers until some of the discussion here, Now I'm actually excited to try them out with the LRS + Homing Missile setup

This is a dog fighting game.

Hasn't been since Wave 3. Keep up.

They did. It's pretty much what this entire message board is about. And they concluded that those ships don't work.

This is a dog fighting game. Not every ship is equal. Bombers are not dog fighters so there should be no fix. The tie advance was an experimental ship leading to the tie interceptor so there should be no fix. Now late in the game we do NOT need to fix older ships to equal or balance the newer ships that are allegedly 20years in design later. Just play the game and let's see how the game goes.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people would be so heavily against new things to revitalise old ships. This isn't 40k, where the new stuff is strictly better than anything that came out before it. I mean, could you imagine a world where Games Workshop made X-Wing?

...I can, and I'll have nightmares for a week about it

I cannot for the life of me understand why people would be so heavily against new things to revitalise old ships. This isn't 40k, where the new stuff is strictly better than anything that came out before it. I mean, could you imagine a world where Games Workshop made X-Wing?

...I can, and I'll have nightmares for a week about it

Edit: ... and the TLT is a 4 point uograde.

To clarify, a bit less snarkily:

I don't expect the ships in this game to have equal capabilities.

I do expect that, say, 36 points of Z-95s should be "worth" about the same as 36 points of TIE Defender.

Obviously that's a pretty massively broad brush I'm painting with, and a ship's value is hugely affected by listbuilding, matchup, player skill and probably a dozen other factors. I'm very pleased that FFG make a habit of revisiting ships whose cost doesn't mesh with their value, and adjusting the capabilities of the ship to try and bring the cost and value more into line. The method might be to make the ship more durable (Integrated Astromech), to make it more potent (Advanced Targeting Computer), it might be a straight adjustment to its points cost (Chardaan Refit, TIE/x7) or it even could be to take an ability away from a ship (the change to Decloaking, the scoring change to lessen the effectiveness of "fat" point fortresses).

I can get why someone might be against the method by which FFG distributes its "fixes", I don't get why someone could be against the fixes themselves. If you're into the game for the theme and fluff, after all, you can just ignore them.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people would be so heavily against new things to revitalise old ships. This isn't 40k, where the new stuff is strictly better than anything that came out before it. I mean, could you imagine a world where Games Workshop made X-Wing?

...I can, and I'll have nightmares for a week about it

Welcome to TIE Fighters that cost $18 MSRP, and K-wings that cost $35 MSRP, "because you don't need as many". They also don't come with TLT. That comes in the "Heavy Assault K-wing" pack you get direct from GW. It has a new K-wing mission sheet, no model, no cardboard, and a single TLT card.

Edit: ... and the TLT is a 4 point uograde.

Excuse me while I weep in a corner somewhere

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Looks like you made a hash of that post!