soontir-world sounds like lovely real estate

I'm not a huge fan of the bomber upgrades mostly because it just makes the tie shuttle into s weaker stress bot and still doesn't make it a decent ordinance platform. Guidance chips still aren't enough. I would of liked an additional title for tie bombers granting double mods for either long range scanner and guidance chip bombers or tie mk2 and shuttle or guidance chip bombers to make them viable. The defender fixes are hot however. Multiple crackshot are awesome.

I don't see why there is still a problem. There are a number of people that complain all the various "fixes" aren't enough.

Extra Munitions goes a long way to make things affordable. Not only that, but it makes Homing Missiles only 3 pts each shot. Homing Missiles are the best ordnance as you still get to use the TL on your dice. That's FANTASTIC. That alone is a fix for the Tie Bomber.

Long Range Sensors makes Scimitar Bombers much easier to use. I've flown a lot of Tie Bombers and there are ways to get your TL and be useful, but it takes a lot of practice and sometimes goes wrong. LRS not just allows you to get the TL to ensure you can fire things, but it also means you can do it early and get a Focus for when it counts. So....that means your Homing Missiles can get a TL and a Focus. That's great to get the hits in.

OK....let's say that you think putting a TL on early is a bad thing. It allows someone to sit back and you waste your TL waiting for to get in range. Besides that being not such a bad thing overall, I'll just say you don't have to do it right away. let's say you just wait until the turn when you know people will be in range, and then you put your TL on your target....probably before they are in range. So, the whole problem of going with low PS and not being able to get the TL just means you use it right before you fire. That's still a good thing and they don't know who you will put the TL on.

Let's talk about Guidance Chip. What's not to love? You get to turn a blank into a hit. Let's say you take Proton Torpedoes. The averages for 4 red dice means you get 2 hits, 1 Eyeball, and 1 blank. That means you get 3 hits and 1 crit without needing to use the TL! Put it on a Bomber with Extra Munitions and you are spending only 2 pts for that ability. Think just roll horrible when it comes to ordnance? Try Concussion Missile. Two blanks turn into hits! If you are able to get a Focus at the same time, then you will definitely get some hits in.

What were the complaints about ordnance for the past few years?

1) You don't have good "action economy" to modify the dice. Well, Guidance Chip, LRS, and even just Homing Missiles fixes that issue.

2) Too hard to get a TL on low PS ships. Well, LRS fixes that. So does XX Tracer.

3) Ordnance is too expensive for what it does. Extra Munitions fixes that, too! What's not to love about ordnance these days?!?!?

I really don't see how people are saying that ordnance isn't fixed at this point....at last for the Tie Bomber.

Secondly all the above except guidance chips have been out for some time and have failed to make ordnance any more competitive. There was not a single ordnance in the top 32 of worlds and none in any top 4 nationals.

Everything mentioned contains additional limitations and except guidance chip additional cost. Extra munition is limited to ships with an extra torpedo slot which limits the ships that can take it. Meaning only a handful of ships benefit from reduced ordnance cost. Every one else is SOL. On top of that costs 2 points limiting any cost efficiency to select ordnance costing 3 or more.

Ordnance always had action economy issues. You still require a target lock for most even if you think homing missles is the bees knees target locks are still worse then a focus. Guidance chip by itself is still worse then a focus. However with a target lock it's better then a focus.

Now you claim lrs fix the mid range pilot problem and guidance chip fixes the action economy problem however you still can't take both. Or hey you can always give up an attack and hope your ship with tracers hit so you can get a target lock on another ship or two for a cost. So really the only ships that seem relatively fixed are select high ps ships with an extra torpedo slot an extra 2 pts and guidance chip taking up your mod slot. I'm not saying ordnance isn't better then it was before however you are building a list or ship around a single shot (or two with extra Munitions)

And guess what at the end of the day it's still worse then a cannon (except that one cannon no one uses because it requires a focus to fire) and as most ordnance still has range issues such as range 2-3 guidance chip is just not enough. This is why people are saying the only good ordnance ships after guidance chip is released are select named pilots and select ships. The basic bomber is still not a good ordnance ship, but it might be useful as an imperial stress bot with the shuttle title.

Triple Defender being viable.

The x7 title specifically, since you're already doings 3+ speed maneuvers most of the time anyways.

By far for Imperial commanders it has to be the Defender titles.

By far for Imperial commanders it has to be the Defender titles.

This might surprise people as I write a lot about Defenders, but I'm pretty much equally excited about the Bomber stuff and the Defender stuff. For some crazy reason, I absolutely loved Bomber missions in the old TIE Fighter PC game. There was something absolutely thrilling about attacking enemy heavies with a ship that had no shields. It wasn't nimble like a TIE fighter, but it wasn't slow or burdensome like a Y-wing either. You could maneuver in that thing (not unlike its incarnation in this game). Then you had the air superiority missions, where your magazines were loaded with missiles and you shredded enemy fighter formations. It wasn't just a turkey-shoot either (at least not all the time). There was some strategy to how you engaged enemy fighters without being absolutely wrecked once you got close. I feel like tools they give bombers in the Imperial Veterans pack really lets me do that in X-wing.

First off, thanks for responding!

First you can't stack lrs, guidance chip, munition failsafe or any other mod. So citing multiple examples that don't stack really doesn't help.

No one mentioned Munitions Failsafe. I agree it's a dud. You can take either LRS or Guidance Chip with Extra Munitions, though. I never stated you could have both. You can have either and Extra Munitions, though. That is pure gold.

Secondly all the above except guidance chips have been out for some time and have failed to make ordnance any more competitive. There was not a single ordnance in the top 32 of worlds and none in any top 4 nationals.
Everything mentioned contains additional limitations and except guidance chip additional cost. Extra munition is limited to ships with an extra torpedo slot which limits the ships that can take it. Meaning only a handful of ships benefit from reduced ordnance cost. Every one else is SOL.

Extra Munitions wasn't out for that long before Worlds. I can easily see it not out in time to influence it. I can also see it when the stigma against ordnance is so bad in the competitive scene that it will take a lot to overcome. Unless there was some OP and blatant fix for ordnance (like the X1 title for Tie Adv.) I would not see many highly competitive players bother with ordnance. To me, I see such a mental block about it that it would take a while to actually be used by high level competitive players. There is a huge negative impression of ordnance in the X-wing community, especially for competitive play. It is a large hurdle to overcome.

Extra Munitions with Homing Missile is good, but is even better with either LRS or Guidance Chip. So, I will say it's still not the time to look at things yet. We probably won't even see an impact until Regionals. It might not even be until 2017 Store Championship due to people being stubborn.

Ordnance always had action economy issues. You still require a target lock for most even if you think homing missles is the bees knees target locks are still worse then a focus.

Target Locks are worse than a Focus, but Target Locks are better than neither. Also, you have the option of getting both a TL and a Focus if you are able to either 1) wait a turn 2) have another form of action economy (free action, Fleet Officer, etc) 3) have LRS.

Guidance chip by itself is still worse then a focus. However with a target lock it's better then a focus.

I just don't get this. Are you saying that Guidance Chip is not good because you can't grab the TL and the Focus in the same round? Because you didn't grab the TL at long range by not having LRS? Well, true, but having Guidance Chip might not be as good as having a Focus, but it's better than not having it, right?

You do admit, though, that Homing Missile with Guidance Chip is better. Also, Guidance Chip with Proton Torpedo works for at least one eyeball, even if it doesn't give the TL. You will be able to change 1 blank and 1 eyeball into hit/crit. That's pretty good and will ensure you get at least 2 hits.

Now you claim lrs fix the mid range pilot problem and guidance chip fixes the action economy problem however you still can't take both.

Actually, I say that the action economy is fixed by either: 1) LRS with Homing Missile (because you can take an early TL and then a Focus the round you fire) or 2) Guidance Chip with Homing Missile, Concussion Missile, or Proton Torpedo.

The low PS problem is fixed only by LRS.

I agree you can't take both. It would be nice if you could.

POST PART 1 - need to put in several posts as it won't let me add too many quotes.

^{Or hey you can always give up an attack and hope your ship with tracers hit so you can get a target lock on another ship or two for a cost.}

^{I admit that Tracers are not the best thing and probably not the fix you were looking for with Tie Bombers. It does make a Blount and Z swarm viscous, as well as a few other options.}

^{Yes, I fully admit I'm talking about only ships that can take Extra Munitions. I figured it's relevant in the thread about the Imperial Veterans box. Maybe I should've stated from the get go that I don't understand why people say ordnance isn't fixed for Tie Bombers?}

^{I do disagree that it's only a fix for high PS ships because low PS ships can use LRS to great effect with Homing Missiles. In fact, that one doesn't really need Extra Munitions, but it does make it cheaper for each shot.}

^{I'm not saying ordnance isn't better then it was before however you are building a list or ship around a single shot (or two with extra Munitions)}

^{I don't think you have to build a whole list around it. I think a single Tie Bomber with Extra Munitions can make a fair addition to an Imperial list now. While it is true that you only get 2 shots with one ordnance and EM, you can also get something cheap like Seismic Charges added for just 2 pts more. That will give you 2 more Bombs. Overall, though, I've found 2 solid Homing Missile shots worth it for a cheap Tie Bomber. I think it will be worth it more once the new upgrades come out.}

^{And guess what at the end of the day it's still worse then a cannon (except that one cannon no one uses because it requires a focus to fire)}

^{Except that the Tie Bomber can't take a cannon. Also, the only ship that's close in price that can take a cannon for Imperials is the Shuttle, and it is no where as maneuverable as the Tie Bomber. So, you can't really compare ordnance to cannons.}

^{and as most ordnance still has range issues such as range 2-3 guidance chip is just not enough.}

^{I agree, but I do think Extra Munitions combined with either LRS or Guidance Chip is enough.}

^{This is why people are saying the only good ships are select named pilots and select ships. The basic bomber is still not a good ordnance ship, but it might be useful as an imperial stress bot with the shuttle title.}

^{I politely disagree with this assessment as I have been using 4 x Scimitar Bombers with Extra Munitions and Homing Missiles to great effect. Having the ability to use LRS will just make it easier.}

^{There are a ton of new combos and options to use with a Tie Bomber now to use ordnance that makes it worth it. Guidance Chips can work with a lot of options other than Homing Missiles, as well.}

^{I don't understand why you don't think ordnance works on Tie Bombers with these various fixes. Have you flown them lately? Have you tried to proxy these results? I've flown Tie Bombers (as listed above) a lot lately and I'm quite happy with them. I find it very competitive.}

Maarek needs to be at least 2 points cheaper than Vessery if he wants to be almost as good.

Vessery's ability right now makes him the best TIE/D, and Maarek's ability works nicely with Mangler Cannon, but not with any other cannon, he won't use either new title and will just be another overpriced Defender.

Maarek with TIE/D and predator will be almost as good as Vessery, so if he costs 34 points or more, won't ever see the table.

There is precedent for higher PS pilots being cheaper than lower PS pilots with great abilities. Obi-Wan's only hope!

Okay Tomax Bren is a precedent for pricing ships but is here really anyone believing seriously that Maarek won't just be in the middle between Vessery and Brath??

If he is cheaper, say 34 points, whats with the glaive squad? 33 for glaive and the countess? Given that, the glaive is 3ps higher plus ept compared to the onyx for just 1 point! I don't think so!!

They did it Royal Guard Interceptors.

No, they didn't. If the Glaive is 34 points, the relationship between the Onyx and the Glaive is exactly the same as with the Avenger and the Royal Guard (+2 points, +3 PS, +1 EPT).

people are more excited for Defenders because Defenders were less viable than Bombers ito pure jousting efficiency (naked scimitar was actually very solid)

now, I can't really decide, but I'm leaning towards bombers due to them being more rng-retardent

Defenders are sturdy, elite craft with the x7 title and PS 6 (Glaive) to compete with Aggressors (a ship which they share a surprisingly similar stat-line). With Tie/D, they become the imperial BTL-a4 and can really show off the power of a white-4k against ionized enemies

But Bombers are now something completely different: viable ordnance carriers

their ammo is limited but their returns are explosive, and they can hit way above their weight class with either LRS or GC, hammering out 4-dice fully modified attacks that equal or surpass even Super Dash i.t.o raw offensive strength

they don't have the mobility or the PS, but that's why they're less than half the points of the big guy. Remember, quantity has a quality all of its own, and the bomber has both

I think I might run Maarek in a /Ds with a pair of Glaives in /x7s.

My point is low ps tie bombers really need both lrs and guidance chip to be competitive. Just taking homing missles, em, and lrs. Is 7 points for 2x 4 dice range 2-3 atks. That you basically have to announce your target early both rounds giving your opponent the ability to stay out of arc and then require you to acquire a target lock at range 3 and beyond the next round. On an atk that can only be modified by a target lock unless you take 2 rounds to get a lock and focus. It's not awful but it's highly restricted and at best your paying your paying 23 points for these 2 shots. However if bombers had a title that gave them dual mod slots you could take lrs and guidance chip and homing missiles would have a target lock and a free hit from guidance missiles and even at the cost of 7 points for 2 shots and the range requirements for both target locks and for homing missiles it would be competitve. Your excuse that extra munitions was a recent upgrade and that's why it had zero competitve representation is naive considering Poe Was literally the last expansion released before worlds and not only won but had multiple top tier lists flying him at worlds.

Guidance chip is the best ordinance fix we recieved by far however I only expect 1-2 named pilots to be competitive with ordnance because it only addresses one problem with ordnance. There is so many problems with ordnance that to make a generic ship competitve with ordnance either requires mutiple fixes at added point costs or you are simply are unable to stack the fixes necessary to address it such as long range scanners and guidance chips. You end up being forced to choose which problems you want with ordnance and deal with it and at the end of the day it's more competitve and easier to just take another ship. Homing missiles, em, long range scanners on a scimitar is not a bad ship but it's not all that either.

I don't know why fickle thinks ordnance on a bomber is fully modified because he should know that neither long range scAnners using a target lock from a homing missile is worse then a focus on a heavy laser cannon or that a single converted hit from guidance chips are worse then a focus. The only instance ordnance is better then heavy laser cannon with focus is if you have a homing missle or any 4atk with a focus.

Im not a HUGE fan of Defenders or Bombers (don't get me wrong, they are both great, Im just an Interceptor guy)

Im just excited to see my Imperial Brothers (and sisters) excited about flying ships from our glorious faction!

My point is low ps tie bombers really need both lrs and guidance chip to be competitive. Just taking homing missles, em, and lrs. Is 7 points for 2x 4 dice range 2-3 atks. That you basically have to announce your target early both rounds giving your opponent the ability to stay out of arc and then require you to acquire a target lock at range 3 and beyond the next round. On an atk that can only be modified by a target lock unless you take 2 rounds to get a lock and focus. It's not awful but it's highly restricted and at best your paying your paying 23 points for these 2 shots. However if bombers had a title that gave them dual mod slots you could take lrs and guidance chip and homing missiles would have a target lock and a free hit from guidance missiles and even at the cost of 7 points for 2 shots and the range requirements for both target locks and for homing missiles it would be competitve.

I disagree that you need both LRS and Guidance Chip to be competitive.

For starters, if you have one 23 pt Tie Bomber that is keeping Soontir Fel out of the fight for a round, I'm OK with that. It's not that bad a thing. Next, if you have a little practice, it's not that easy to just stay out of arc of a Tie Bomber and still be relevant in the fight. I'm not seeing someone staying out of range as a bad thing.

You talk about using the Homing Missile without the use of a Focus. If you have LRS and your target doesn't manage to stay out of range, then you have both a TL and a Focus with a Homing Missile. It's the best of both possible worlds.

Your excuse that extra munitions was a recent upgrade and that's why it had zero competitve representation is naive considering Poe Was literally the last expansion released before worlds and not only won but had multiple top tier lists flying him at worlds.

I wouldn't say excuse, but I'd say reason. Still....if you read what I wrote then take it in context. If there was a slight fix to ordnance (like Extra Munitions) then it will take a while for it to actually filter through the competitive crowd due to the horrible reputation that ordnance has with competitive players. It can be a decent fix, but won't be tried by competitive players for a while. They just aren't that open minded to ordnance at all. You can't compare adding Poe to the game to a slight fix to ordnance that makes it a good option.

Guidance chip is the best ordinance fix we recieved by far however I only expect 1-2 named pilots to be competitive with ordnance because it only addresses one problem with ordnance. There is so many problems with ordnance that to make a generic ship competitve with ordnance either requires mutiple fixes at added point costs or you are simply are unable to stack the fixes necessary to address it such as long range scanners and guidance chips. You end up being forced to choose which problems you want with ordnance and deal with it and at the end of the day it's more competitve and easier to just take another ship. Homing missiles, em, long range scanners on a scimitar is not a bad ship but it's not all that either.

I think Guidance combined with Extra Munitions makes all Tie Bombers viable. It works with all ships with ordnance and not just Tie Bombers. It works with all PS levels, too. It's a good thing.

Personally, I think Long Range Sensors will do more for my 4 x Scimitar Squad. Not worrying about getting the TL first is going to be great. Also, if someone's scared of moving a ship up that's TL, then it's a form of control on the board. It can be used against your opponent. You might say that that version of a Scimitar is "not all that", but I'm highly impressed with the damage that they can do.

Can I ask when was the last time you flew a Tie Bomber? Ficklegreendice used to talk about how ordnance was bad and there was no action economy and it was terrible. I went round and round with him about how EM and Homing Missiles was going to change that. He disagreed with me for a long time. One day, and I don't know why, he tried out my 4 Scimitar Squad. He's been a convert ever since.

I guess what I see is a lot of theorycrafting about it and dismissing of various points I've made because you don't think it will work that way. Maybe you have played a lot with these ships and I'm wrong. I know I have flown Tie Bombers before Extra Munitions, with Extra Munitions, and will do so with the new upgrades. I know what these ships can do and I'm very happy with it. I see you saying that things are just bad, but I really don't find the substance in your arguments.

Example: You talk about Homing Missiles without a Focus as being not a good option.

1) Why is it not a good option? You have average of 3 hits with an attack and they can't use an Evade. I mean, yes, you would get more hits with a Focus, as well, but is it bad to get an average of 3 hits? I don't think so.

2) Long Range Sensors gives a very real possibility that you are getting a TL with a Focus on an enemy ship. Some ships will stay out of range, but it's not always a bad thing. Arc Dodgers won't have an easy time in going from out of range to dodging your arc. It's possible, but you can always set up your other ships to take advantage of that, as well.

I'm not a huge fan of the bomber upgrades mostly because it just makes the tie shuttle into s weaker stress bot and still doesn't make it a decent ordinance platform. Guidance chips still aren't enough. I would of liked an additional title for tie bombers granting double mods for either long range scanner and guidance chip bombers or tie mk2 and shuttle or guidance chip bombers to make them viable. The defender fixes are hot however. Multiple crackshot are awesome.

Ya they don't shoot fancy missles, but having board control is great. If anything it does not make the bombers weaker

Puts the fear of God into anything that does not want double stress, or any stres for that matter

It's the new panic attack for Imperials and I like it.

Shoot at bomber take a stress.

Get into range 1 take a stress.

Didn't avoid range two arc another stress.

Intel agent, let's see where your going.

I've been using vessery with ion Cannon for that added board control, but I'm highly debating tractor beam

Reduce that agility and makes it even easier for those bombers to get that dmg through.

Idk, but as I said, I've gone two games with it and won both.

Bombers are tanky and many a times one will escape with one or two health while there are still fully health bombers on the board

Out of both games so far only lost 1 ship. First game was against elite 6 ship tie swarm where the lowest ps my opponent had was ps3, and other game was Vader and veteran instincts vessery

Point is bombers don't need missiles to be useful.

I already have 2 Defenders, I'm thinking if I buy 2 sets I'll be able to field 4 awesome titled Glaive Squadron pilots in Epic or a mixture of named pilots. I could enhance that with 3 TIE Bombers (I have 1) lobbing ordnance and mines while the Defenders fly circles around their opponents. I figure Captain Antilles would rather go up against the Devastator than be chased by a swarm like that.

I am very excited for Guidance Chimps, the Cartel will enjoy using them to liberate more cargo quickly and efficiently.

Guidance Drea or w.e her name is could be quite painful

If he is cheaper, say 34 points, whats with the glaive squad? 33 for glaive and the countess? Given that, the glaive is 3ps higher plus ept compared to the onyx for just 1 point! I don't think so!!

Ok so I was thinking something slightly different, but it's pertinent here. Saber Squadron is PS 4 with an EPT. Royal Guard is PS 6 with an EPT for 1 more point (21 vs. 22). So they may just toss the playbook out and make them cheaper (because in the end, that's what we're talking about). Because unlike with the Interceptors, this is FFGs way of basically admitting they effed up when making the price of the old Defender pilots.

Gungo, I don't get why you keep saying GC is worse than focus. Taking Guidance does not stop you from focusing. They're peanut butter and jelly, dude. I'm reading your arguments and basically it feels like what you're saying is that ordnance won't be fixed until you can guarantee 4 hits every time with it.

Anyway, I'm absolutely getting two of these sets. I need more bombers.

I already have 2 Defenders, I'm thinking if I buy 2 sets I'll be able to field 4 awesome titled Glaive Squadron pilots in Epic or a mixture of named pilots. I could enhance that with 3 TIE Bombers (I have 1) lobbing ordnance and mines while the Defenders fly circles around their opponents. I figure Captain Antilles would rather go up against the Devastator than be chased by a swarm like that.

Oh man, running a bunch of Ion Cannon TIE/D Defenders against a Huge ship. Gonna be so much fun. All the energy sapping, but without the loss of damage output for 0 extra points. Sweeeet.

What I am disapointed with is that there is none of the genereic pilots from Tie/D and Bombers. So you still have to buy them to be able to fly those, so you are kinda stuck with more minis than you need.

If you want to run this build:

I kinda like it. I expect that "veterans" is geared towards players that have all the copies of that ship already. It just adds new pilots and some fixes. Opposed to "aces" which are meant to expand your collection.

I kinda like it. I expect that "veterans" is geared towards players that have all the copies of that ship already. It just adds new pilots and some fixes. Opposed to "aces" which are meant to expand your collection.

Actually, I like the idea of it being Veterans, especially for bombers. Because, as is partially evidenced by the back-and-forth above, none of this stuff is an insta-fix for the bombers. Each thing gives you a new way to use the craft, but you still gotta "git gud" to make any real use of it. It's like the opposite end of the spectrum from the "just slap a turret on an engine and away you go" school of combat, (a.k.a Rebel Scum Method hahahaha).

But Bombers are now something completely different: viable ordnance carriers

Do you see any copies of Guidance chips in there? Because that's what is going get them on the table more than anything in this release.

Another bit about Glaive Squadron that I didn't mention is the fact that it makes much more sense their PS is behind the stick of the TIE Defender than the newb Delta Squadron. If the literal 'Rookie Pilot' in the X-Wing has more skill than what are supposed to all be seasoned TIE Interceptor pilots, they must be having some serious teething problems on their new craft.

Gungo, I don't get why you keep saying GC is worse than focus. Taking Guidance does not stop you from focusing. They're peanut butter and jelly, dude. I'm reading your arguments and basically it feels like what you're saying is that ordnance won't be fixed until you can guarantee 4 hits every time with it.

Anyway, I'm absolutely getting two of these sets. I need more bombers.

I already have 2 Defenders, I'm thinking if I buy 2 sets I'll be able to field 4 awesome titled Glaive Squadron pilots in Epic or a mixture of named pilots. I could enhance that with 3 TIE Bombers (I have 1) lobbing ordnance and mines while the Defenders fly circles around their opponents. I figure Captain Antilles would rather go up against the Devastator than be chased by a swarm like that.

Oh man, running a bunch of Ion Cannon TIE/D Defenders against a Huge ship. Gonna be so much fun. All the energy sapping, but without the loss of damage output for 0 extra points. Sweeeet.