So. Got it. It being Keeping the Peace.

So, let's talk about these crafting rules.

Generally, I like it.

I do wonder though, how would you treat existing armour in relation to crafting?

I get the templates, good idea and tweak with the results.

Would you treat all armour entries as templates that can be taught? In case I want to create armoured clothing, which has an effect that effect is not readily available on the list of potential cool (and bad) extra results...

Would you find the closes template on the template table and adjust cost and/or difficult in some manner?

I'd say you'd find the closest template to what you want and use that.

Much like Saga Editions' rules on starships in Starships of the Galaxy, this system wasn't meant to let the PCs perfectly recreate every type of armor that exists in the game. So it's fine if the PCs can't completely recreate existing armors like armored clothing or heavy battle armor.

I suspect that if/when we get crafting rules for things like weapons, personal gear, and/or vehicles, it'll be much the same in that the player will have a number of templates to choose from, and will then use the Advantages, Threats, Triumphs, and Despairs to further customize it.

As for which templates does a player already know...

I think it really boils down to how much of an emphasis do you want to put on the armor crafting. If that's a character's main goal, I would rule that they know how to craft the template most similar to the armor they started out with, and maybe any template of a lesser quality. But I would make procuring the knowledge to craft the rest of the templates into small adventures or encounters.

However, if the character just wants to craft some armor and move on. Then, I would just say they know how to craft armor of all templates and go from there.

If you find an example of what you want to make, reverse engineer it. Of course that destroys the one copy to do all the analysis.

I'd say you'd find the closest template to what you want and use that.

Much like Saga Editions' rules on starships in Starships of the Galaxy, this system wasn't meant to let the PCs perfectly recreate every type of armor that exists in the game. So it's fine if the PCs can't completely recreate existing armors like armored clothing or heavy battle armor.

I suspect that if/when we get crafting rules for things like weapons, personal gear, and/or vehicles, it'll be much the same in that the player will have a number of templates to choose from, and will then use the Advantages, Threats, Triumphs, and Despairs to further customize it.

I'm thinking that weapons are going to be the next to roll out and then vehicles. I doubt personal gear will come out before those. I do have to say that I would like to just see a book that has all the templates and options for all equipment.

I'd say you'd find the closest template to what you want and use that.

Much like Saga Editions' rules on starships in Starships of the Galaxy, this system wasn't meant to let the PCs perfectly recreate every type of armor that exists in the game. So it's fine if the PCs can't completely recreate existing armors like armored clothing or heavy battle armor.

I suspect that if/when we get crafting rules for things like weapons, personal gear, and/or vehicles, it'll be much the same in that the player will have a number of templates to choose from, and will then use the Advantages, Threats, Triumphs, and Despairs to further customize it.

Yeah, that's what I first thought... then I looked at the lightsaber hilts.

Granted lightsabers need a kyber crystal to be awesome, and at least a training emitter to be useful. The armour sort of just works straight away.

Still, I'm inclined to at least investigate the potential of making existing armour from stolen schematics of templates, to produce armour that can be found in the various sourcebooks and CRBs oneself.

First off I'd make these things hard to acquire, I'm not sure a reverse engineering check as in SWTOR is something I'd include in my game - but my suggestion for that is that you increase and/or upgrade the craft difficulty and to learn the template you need at least 3 advantages or a triumph... normal success just gives you a % of the cost in parts. I'd avoid this for my game though I think, too much hassle and takes focus away from storytelling.

So, hard to acquire stuff, you'd need to steal it from a manufacturers data systems, slicing time! Or from the head of the inventor ... takes me to dark places ... morality plunge or learn the template from an armour smith.

Then you'd have to acquire what is needed, for some armour that may be problematic as they may be using patented materials and alloys, perhaps even secret ones, which could make a type of armour restricted, even if it normally isn't - as the only way to acquire the parts would be the black market. So streewise checks and running from the authorities ensues. Good stuff.

Generally, I think that per "special" effect - like armoured clothing - I'd either upgrade and/or increase the difficulty, and setback dice could be added in copious amounts as you're making by hand something designed for machine manufacturing, easily increase craft time, cost and so on...

I'm also wondering if you when you set out to craft, could pick 1 or 2 of the lower level results on the craft table as part of your template, by upgrading and/or setbacking your check...? Like 1-2 advantage stuff = add 1 setback die, 2-3 advantages = upgrade... 4 = two upgrades... of course that could be fun with the resulting armour having boons and drawbacks that either cancel each other out, which is fine, but could also "stack" on top of each other... like auto-advantage to Stealth, but auto-threat to Vigilance...

Armour makers aren't likely going to give or sell the designs to their top tier products so I'm going to go with they can purchase some, steal or find others, or reverse engineer them. I'll also allow a PC to design as well using a combination of Weapon, Athletics, and Engineering Skills.

I've been thinking more on creating existing armours.

So, basically for reverse engineering I'm thinking two ways of doing it:

1. You reverse engineer as a Mechanics check, difficulty being the closes equivalent on the template table "round up," i.e. pick the highest trait as the qualifier. Special traits (like armoured clothing) can add Setback, or perhaps even an upgrade if seriously badassery special. If the armour has been damaged (looted from dead/injured) add a setback die, two or three if there was a critical injury or lightsaber involved. If you get a simple success you get 35% of the value of the armour in parts - usable for armour crafting. For each additional success you gain another 5%. If you score a Triumph you also learn the template for the armour. Time needed to reverse engineering should be 1/2 or perhaps even less of the crafting time. This is further reduced by advantages.
2. This reverse engineering method is used to learn the template, not gain parts. Here find difficulty as above*, but give it one automatic upgrade (in addition to any other from special traits). To learn the template you need to succeed and roll 3 advantages**. Further successes can be used to gain initially 10% of the cost in parts, further successes add 5% to this. Triumph increases the parts % to 25% unless it's spent in learning the template. Advantages as 1.
3. Both of the above should destroy the armour completely. To learn how to make an armour without destroying/dismantling it shouldn't really be an option in my opinion.

*arguably you could also increase it once.

**the advantage cost could be waived, but then I feel it's only right that the difficulty is at least upgraded once, preferably twice and no Despair is rolled. That's me though. Oh and if someone feels I'm being of the opposite mind here than in some earlier discussion on modding, well, minds can change. Also, I think this is different.

Now when it comes to creating armour learned through reverse engineering or theft/gifts/loot, I think the difficulty should again be based on the equivalent template from the book, but again it should receive an upgrade (or an increase) in addition to relevant setback dice.

-the cost of learned templates (from reverse engineered armour or templates stole/found) should be the cost of the armour adjusted somewhat. Here it depends a bit on the armour, so GM's discretion is advised and necessary. Some basic armour is pretty cheap and could be even cheaper to make, whereas other's can be quite expensive, but still on the cheap side to craft (i.e. materials won't be rare, expensive and so on), and of course the other way around. It depends on the armour, the use, the special traits and so on. Generally it shouldn't be more expensive to craft something than to buy it, but I can think if exceptions to that idea, but also it should rarely be cheaper than half price, I'd most of the time go with 3/4 of the cost - depending on type, traits and so on.

-the craft table in KtP could be used, but I'd increase the advantage cost by 1 to modify armours like these. Also, the only results that can be used should fit or make sense with the armour being created, as it's not custom made, but based on a product. Big changes should be discouraged, perhaps even disallowed.

I like your ideas so far. I would drop the advantage cost in favor of additional increases, setbacks, or upgrades. I would allow a triumph or a load of advantages to recover some parts. Maybe reduce cost to craft template by 10% to a maximum of 50%.

You're mainly referring to 2) above yes?

About the advantage cost, are you referring to needing 3 advantages to learn the template and instead just add setback dice and upgrades?

-- If so I'd maybe require 2 successes, or at least slap on a minimum of 1 challenge die for the mere act of trying to reverse engineer something. That is on top of base difficulty. And then setback dice as a appropriate.

And the recovery of parts is limited to triumph or 3+ advantages?

Yeah, the construction cost of reverse engineered templates could start at 10% discount and then you can spend excessive successes (or advantages ...?) to reduce it further, to a maximum discount of 50% ?

Another route is to add more varied effects on the advantage/threat and triumph/despair table. It's silly to think that crafting should be limited to just those alternatives... right?

So suggestions for other 1, 2, 3 and 4 advantage effects, perhaps some more triumph suggestions and perhaps a 5 advantage effects?

This way you can add effects like: looks like normal clothing (3 or 4 advantages), looks just like a stormtrooper uniform, even if it does not provide the same benefits.

This way, reverse engineering other armours can give you new and more interesting effects on the advantage/triumph table...

If you find an example of what you want to make, reverse engineer it. Of course that destroys the one copy to do all the analysis.

You could go SWTOR-style, and need 10, 20... 50 copies of the thing to successfully reverse-engineer it.

Yeah, but no.

So, continuing on this.

After the last O66 episode (number 71) they answered some, if not the most important, of my questions (which I take to mean that I hit upon something significant, but of course actually means that they forgot or ran out of time).

Based on that episode, these are some rough guidelines when making your own templates or wanting to construct existing armour from the books:

Cost = about ½

Rarity is adjusted by -1 to -2.

Craft difficulty is based on rarity: Average 1-3, hard 4-5, daunting 5-7, formidable 8+ (adjust for complexity) - here's perhaps where one could add upgrades?

Time: I'd base this on the table in KtP, with adjustment based on complexity and stats.

Tossing in my two credits:

Templates are not schematics. Templates are just an abstractive look at general armors. Schematics are the specific instructions to build desired armor. I would say templates up to average should just be known. (Very easy to know where to add extra padding in a jacket.) Hard and above could be theorized with a Mechanics check (one stage lower than crafting difficulty) before searching out parts.

I worry on this, like I did for constructing one's own hilt, that it will introduce player jealousy. One lucky player gets two triumphs and makes an awesome one, while his best friend flubs and gets a despair and barely succeeds. This sets up strife between them over a pair of dice rolls, and while i would love to think most players are above that, my experience has been otherwise. Something that could be a big arc in-game should, in my opinion, be a little less variable. I think in my game their initial success will instead grant them a schematic - and that schematics will be available but rare in the galaxy.

Well, schematics could be seen as variations on the templates, but that's besides the point.

So far my group has one armourer, and I think it'll stay that way, one guy making armour, for everyone.

My issue is the suspension of disbelief... what happens when the crafter sees the Despairs or bunch of threats ... he won't use the armour, even if he should, he knows nothing is wrong with it, but the player does. The "play to lose" buy-in is important.

I'd probably just say like most things in this system keep it simple. In short use the existing templates and if you want an effect not shown talk with your GM on a potential increased cost and/or an alternative requirement of advantage/triumph you might need to gain those extras. Simple, quick and less book keeping.

I'd say you'd find the closest template to what you want and use that.

Much like Saga Editions' rules on starships in Starships of the Galaxy, this system wasn't meant to let the PCs perfectly recreate every type of armor that exists in the game. So it's fine if the PCs can't completely recreate existing armors like armored clothing or heavy battle armor.

I suspect that if/when we get crafting rules for things like weapons, personal gear, and/or vehicles, it'll be much the same in that the player will have a number of templates to choose from, and will then use the Advantages, Threats, Triumphs, and Despairs to further customize it.

I'm thinking that weapons are going to be the next to roll out and then vehicles. I doubt personal gear will come out before those. I do have to say that I would like to just see a book that has all the templates and options for all equipment.

The full crafting rules are supposed to be in Special Modifications which is on the dreaded 6 hour tour as we speak.

So, I've been considering some custom templates/schematics... call it what you want, I guess these would be schematics, so it's an adjusted template...

Not sure what to call it, but it's basically kind robed second skin battle armour

One of my players made a variant of this, but this is slightly adjusted, based on memory and Friday brain at work... you could arguably go for 2 upgrades or add a setback dice in addition to the listed 1 upgrade. This is based on the guidelines from the O66 episode, plus my thoughts above. Using setback dice may not be appropriate though.

Defence: 1

Soak: 2

Encumbrance: 4

Hard Points: 3

Special: add 2 setback dice to notice the wearer is armoured.

Material: ® 2,600 / 7

Time to create: 60 hours

Difficulty: Daunting with 1 upgrade ( PPP R [+ S ])

And talking about that.

What is best? Second skin armour or armoured clothing?

I mean stat wise they're similar, but armoured clothing requires an average Perception check to notice the clothing is armour, whereas Second skin armour (in Desperate Allies) adds 2 setback dice to notice the second skin armour on the wearer. Which of those abilities would you consider "better"?

And if you want either of those abilities as part of a schematic, how would you adjust the template diff?

As you can see, I added an upgrade for 2 setback dice - and I think I added a setback die too at the table - but what would you do? With the premiss that you actually would do and allow this.

And talking about that.

What is best? Second skin armour or armoured clothing?

I mean stat wise they're similar, but armoured clothing requires an average Perception check to notice the clothing is armour, whereas Second skin armour (in Desperate Allies) adds 2 setback dice to notice the second skin armour on the wearer. Which of those abilities would you consider "better"?

And if you want either of those abilities as part of a schematic, how would you adjust the template diff?

As you can see, I added an upgrade for 2 setback dice - and I think I added a setback die too at the table - but what would you do? With the premiss that you actually would do and allow this.

IMO, Second Skin is better. Adding 2 setback to their Perception vs your Skulduggery to keep it hidden is better than a flat Average Perception check to spot the armor.

I wouldn't adjust the template difficulty. I think that adding that kind of effect to a craft attempt would be a 2 - 3 Advantage cost.

I'm interested in something similar for my Thief PC.

Now that crafting rules have been expanded and Max having repeated himself on the O66 podcast (but also laying down a ton of wisdom) answering our questions on a lot of stuff, I have continued to look into the tweaking and unnecessary modification of the crafting rules...

These are rough, but based on the guidelines Max provided last episode and in the episode concerning armour crafting, and then some additional stuff I regurgitated myself.

Customised crafting template guidelines (when crafting templates based existing/published armour, weapons, gear and so on):

• Cost = ~½

• Rarity: -1 to -2

• Difficulty based on rarity: Average 1-3, hard 4-5, daunting 5-7, formidable 8+ (adjust for complexity, see below) - question is: original or adjusted rarity? I'll go with original for now.

• Time: adjust by table and what seems reasonable (if time do research).

• Remove non-unique and non-core function qualities

  • (Items with unique-qualities automatically …?)*

Combining templates (adding 1 or more unique qualities/new core qualities):

• Choose base template for base qualities.

• Cost = most expensive of base and added template, add half** of each additional template.

• Craft time = longest craft time, add half*** of each additional template.

• Base difficulty: most difficult template

• Combining 2 templates (adding one) = 1 increase to difficulty

• Add 1 new core quality (from table) = 1 upgrade to difficulty

• Add 1-2 additional new core qualities = Add 2 setback dice per additional quality or rank of same quality (max 4 setback dice)

• Add a 3rd new quality (and/or rank) = Add challenge die

• (Add a third template = Add challenge die [not sure this should be possible])

*I’m not so sure whether or not these items, like armoured clothing or second skin armour, the Quicktrigger blaster, items with special qualities not listed on the tables, should be any more difficult than what the guidelines provided by Max suggests.

**This could easily be one quarter too. Don’t need to make it too expensive.

***I’m wondering whether or not it should just be a static add-on on top of the longest craft time, like 6 hours or 4 hours or something, per additional template.

Example 1:

My Xexto Taym Peel, Hotshot extraordinaire, is crafting a new Quicktrigger blaster pistol (from Fly Casual) from parts he's scavenged, bought and stolen. The schematics he stole while working for Merr-Sonn as a security guard. My GM is of course kind enough to let me attempt this, based on the guidelines provided above. I make the following template:

• Cost: 225
• Rarity: 2
• Difficulty: Hard (based on original rarity, not adjusted) - now, due to the unique quality of the Quicktrigger, the GM may require me to increase, or upgrade this difficulty - or he may just add a setback or two.
• Craft time: 18 hours
• Template stats: dmg 6; crit 3; range Medium; Enc 1; HP 3; reduce Mechanic check to repair and mod as per FC page 43.
  • I removed Stun setting and one HP as these appear on the tables in SM and are non-unique.

Creating the quicktrigger base template then is a DD D check.

If I wanted to include the two other qualities I removed, I'd basically upgrade the difficulty once and slap on 2 setback dice per my guidelines above. So difficulty would be: C DD SS

Example 2:

Taym Peel wants a new set of armour, he's been looking at the customisable armour template in KtP, but wants it to have the Second Skin quality of not being recognisable as armour. The GM may allow this, or perhaps require me to use the Armoured clothing quality instead, as I'm not going to wear my customisable armour underneath my clothing.

Second skin armour template:

• Cost: 1000
• Rarity: 6
• Difficulty: Daunting
• Craft time: 30 hours (I base this on similar templates in KtP and the assumed complexity of making something like the second skin armour)
• Template stats: Soak 1; Defence 1; Enc 2; HP 0; Add setback dice to perception checks to notice armour.

Armoured clothing template:

• Cost: 500
• Rarity: 5
• Difficulty: Daunting
• Craft time: 28 hours (I base it off the deflective armour)
• Template stats: Soak 1; Defence 1; Enc 3; HP 1; Require Average Perception check to detect clothing to be plated and that it's armour.

When Taym now is going to create his customisable second skin or customisable armoured clothing, here's the process:

1. Choose base template for base stats. Taym chooses customisable armour, he wants those HPs.
2. Cost will be based on most expensive one, if Taym has cash he would probably go for the second skin template, starting at 1000 and adding 250 from the customisable armour template. With less cash, he'd go with armoured clothing, same cost, so add half to 500, so 750 for material.
3. The base difficulty is Daunting regardless of adding the armoured clothing or second skin quality/template, as both armoured clothing and second skin are quite complex types of armour, hiding all the protection in that way.
   1. This difficulty is then increased to Formidable as I'm combining two templates.
   2. If I want to add one other core quality, like another HP or reduced Encumbrance or perhaps one better melee or range defence, upgrade the difficulty and so on. For instance wanting to increase both defences, would be upgrading and adding 2 setback dice.

So... Wall of text... sorry...

so I have a question about the book "keeping the peace" and "special modifications" the supplement for EOTE. if I buy one or the other will I be able to cobble together some ideas about how to run crafting for the supplement I didnt get? For example say I pick up "keeping the peace" and using the tables for armor crafting, make tables that are non-standard for building droids or blasters... does anyone think its a better idea to just pick up both supplements? (my library is getting full to the point i cant carry around all the books!)

If you want crafting variety go with Special Modifications.

Aye, in all honesty, special modifications will give you a very good idea what kind of traits are included within those trees as a baseline. You don't really need keeping the peace at all from that perspective.