What is a good rebel counter to howlrunner, soontir, Vader, 2 tie advanced, 3 interceptors?

Looking for squadron ideas with or without Yavaris.

Also what is the best counter to Vader, advanced, 4 Firesprays, Dengar, and Ryhmer?

Finally, what about 3X advanced, Dengar, Ryhmer, 3/2 Firesprays.

Seems the Rebels are in a pickle against squadrons.

We usually, have a minimum of so many points direct toward squadrons each making lists and pick from the opponent's two fleets.

I upgraded my Assault Frigates to AFMK-IIAs, and then upgraded more of my Nebulon-Bs to Escorts instead of Supports.

Hell, my lead AFMK-IIA even has Ruthless Strategists, so it can pull an X-Wing into the Rhymer Ball, Blast Away, and Sacrifice the X-Wing to ladle Damage on EVERYONE.

And considering where I drive it, part of me is even considering cluster bombs just to throw even more One-shot damage.

The problem is, going Head to head is going to be a severely uphill battle. You have the tools, but the tools are expensive in comparison. The biggest Weakness of the Imperial Squadrons are - generally - their lower Hulls... Hitting them with Anti-Squadron Fire is best, because a small amount of fire makes a big difference when its loaded out... But you also need to aggressively spike the Intel that's going to let them shoot back.

I don't think there is a simple Mathematical Answer.

Neb-B escorts shred opposing Tie Fighters/Interceptors. Jan Oars lets your squadrons live long enough for the Nebs to let loose

flight controllers works really well. Wedge is fantastic as well. With flight controllers, he's at 7 blue dice. Which should kill anything he shoots at. Be mindful of your squadron placement. You should be able to pull the swarm into fragments if you place your fighters in the right spots. A wings are really strong at this when used with flight controllers (4 blue die + 2 counter die). Also, if you're worried about a swarm, the neb and whale both have variants with 2 blue die anti squadron fire for just a few points extra.

also, a cr90 placed in the arc of a different ship forces the ball to change targets.

my regular rebel opponent likes Neb B escorts with wedge and Yavaris. He uses the Y-wing ace Dutch to land a hit and toggle a squad to activated and then hits em with wedge, add in an anti-fighter arc from the neb and stuff starts withering fairly quickly. I have learned to make sure my squads are supported by some sort of capital ship so that the Neb has a tough choice between using arcs vs fighters or using them vs the ISDII that is making lunch out of them.

What is a good rebel counter to howlrunner, soontir, Vader, 2 tie advanced, 3 interceptors?

The advice you've received thus far has been good for the other questions you asked, but I don't feel that this specific build has received a lot of attention. This squadron setup is devoted entirely to destroying enemy squadrons and is basically miserable for its points at everything else. The best counter to this squadron setup is to not run squadrons at all* and to focus on using your capital ship advantage to destroy the Imperial capital ships. If you feel the need to kill some of the Imperial squadrons, make sure to bring some decent flak ships (anything with 2 blue flak dice).

*As has been noted, the Imperial squadrons being so specialized means that the Imperial player has a leg up in a strict squadron-versus-squadron sense if he's only trying to go anti-squadron or anti-ship with his squadrons. It will be impossible for a Rebel squadron build to effectively defeat an Imperial player's anti-squadron squadrons with the same or less points expended on his own squadrons, as you're paying points for anti-ship capability that the Imperial player isn't. Thus my advice in that specific circumstance is simply not to play his game at all and invest the points in ships, which those squadrons are poor against.

What is a good rebel counter to howlrunner, soontir, Vader, 2 tie advanced, 3 interceptors?

The advice you've received thus far has been good for the other questions you asked, but I don't feel that this specific build has received a lot of attention. This squadron setup is devoted entirely to destroying enemy squadrons and is basically miserable for its points at everything else. The best counter to this squadron setup is to not run squadrons at all* and to focus on using your capital ship advantage to destroy the Imperial capital ships. If you feel the need to kill some of the Imperial squadrons, make sure to bring some decent flak ships (anything with 2 blue flak dice).

*As has been noted, the Imperial squadrons being so specialized means that the Imperial player has a leg up in a strict squadron-versus-squadron sense if he's only trying to go anti-squadron or anti-ship with his squadrons. It will be impossible for a Rebel squadron build to effectively defeat an Imperial player's anti-squadron squadrons with the same or less points expended on his own squadrons, as you're paying points for anti-ship capability that the Imperial player isn't. Thus my advice in that specific circumstance is simply not to play his game at all and invest the points in ships, which those squadrons are poor against.

Yeah I agree on the first list. Ignore them more or less. Deploy away if you have bombers or split your squads and make him come after the groups one at a time. This type of imperial anti-squad optimizing only really works when they are all balled up making them less effective if they have to spread out.

Also think about keeping your squads to the side or even just behind your ships. Make him come get them or be forced to use his fighters shooting at your ships which they aren't that good at. This will let you use ships to shoot at the squads from secondary arcs rather than having them ball up between the ships. Your TRC CR90 all of the sudden has a second shot it cares about. One blue at 8 squads? Sounds ok to me.

also don't forget about gallant haven. When paired with a figate b its decidedly antifighter.

The final answer is that there is no answer. And this is a good thing!

If you build your list specifically to defeat a few squadron setups you are certainly going to suffer vs a list that does not focus on those setups.

I think what a few rebel players are doing is defaulting to X-Wings. X-wings aren't particularly great or particularly terrible at anything, if you come up against a bomber heavy list they are pretty good Squad to squad, at the same time they have a (highly variable) red bomber die so no-squadron lists would be foolish to ignore an xwing swarm (esp with luke in the mix) as 5 or 6 un-braceable, un-evadable red dice (or Luke's vicious shield ignoring black die fishing for crits). Yes Xs are slow meaning they will require a modicum of skill and practice to utilize effectively.

just built a quick max squad point rebels (I don't play rebs, but I'm trying)

132 pts

Luke

Dutch

Wedge

Generic Hwk

5 x-wings

33 Blue (possibly 35 or 35 with a guaranteed damage) anti-squad dice

3 black and 5 red bomber dice, 1 black ignoring shields

If I saw this coming after my full-point fireball or an exposed ISD I would be quite alarmed.

I'm in love using Jan, Dutch,Dash and x2 x-wings. Of course you can sub Dash with more generic squadrons, but I like his re-rolls. Jan is a no-brainer with Intel and the ability to give out the use of her defense tokens. If you can activate Dutch before your opponent you can basically shut down most high end squadrons. The use of Wing Commander and boosted comms helped me out greatly with this.

my regular rebel opponent likes Neb B escorts with wedge and Yavaris. He uses the Y-wing ace Dutch to land a hit and toggle a squad to activated and then hits em with wedge, add in an anti-fighter arc from the neb and stuff starts withering fairly quickly. I have learned to make sure my squads are supported by some sort of capital ship so that the Neb has a tough choice between using arcs vs fighters or using them vs the ISDII that is making lunch out of them.

Dutch is perfect for stopping Mauler Mithel and Boba with their auto damage if they get to activate. If there are no escorts, tap the star pilot with Dutch, boom ace in the hole completely useless. Wedge following up is just a bonus.

I'm in love using Jan, Dutch,Dash and x2 x-wings. Of course you can sub Dash with more generic squadrons, but I like his re-rolls. Jan is a no-brainer with Intel and the ability to give out the use of her defense tokens. If you can activate Dutch before your opponent you can basically shut down most high end squadrons. The use of Wing Commander and boosted comms helped me out greatly with this.

If I'm putting in Dutch, I'm going to put in Wedge as well. That combo is great.

Lately, I've been using Jans, Dutch, Wedge, xwing, 3 A wings. Between Jans the X-wing, and Wedge, there are 4 braces available...and Jans will always be safe (except from IG-88) since Xwings escort. A wings, to get the early lock down/engagement. A wings will get a few shots off and probably take some fire..but that's fine because at least they'll throw counters. Then as they start to get low on hull, fly in Jan, Wedge and Xwing. Escort will take fire off the A-wing and Jans will allow any of them to retreat if necessary. Dutch and Wedge will clean up.

my regular rebel opponent likes Neb B escorts with wedge and Yavaris. He uses the Y-wing ace Dutch to land a hit and toggle a squad to activated and then hits em with wedge, add in an anti-fighter arc from the neb and stuff starts withering fairly quickly. I have learned to make sure my squads are supported by some sort of capital ship so that the Neb has a tough choice between using arcs vs fighters or using them vs the ISDII that is making lunch out of them.

Dutch is perfect for stopping Mauler Mithel and Boba with their auto damage if they get to activate. If there are no escorts, tap the star pilot with Dutch, boom ace in the hole completely useless. Wedge following up is just a bonus.

On dutch v mithel...you better pray dutch rolls that accuracy.

my regular rebel opponent likes Neb B escorts with wedge and Yavaris. He uses the Y-wing ace Dutch to land a hit and toggle a squad to activated and then hits em with wedge, add in an anti-fighter arc from the neb and stuff starts withering fairly quickly. I have learned to make sure my squads are supported by some sort of capital ship so that the Neb has a tough choice between using arcs vs fighters or using them vs the ISDII that is making lunch out of them.

Dutch is perfect for stopping Mauler Mithel and Boba with their auto damage if they get to activate. If there are no escorts, tap the star pilot with Dutch, boom ace in the hole completely useless. Wedge following up is just a bonus.

On dutch v mithel...you better pray dutch rolls that accuracy.

Yavaris Baby.

just built a quick max squad point rebels (I don't play rebs, but I'm trying)

132 pts

Luke

Dutch

Wedge

Generic Hwk

5 x-wings

33 Blue (possibly 35 or 35 with a guaranteed damage) anti-squad dice

3 black and 5 red bomber dice, 1 black ignoring shields

If I saw this coming after my full-point fireball or an exposed ISD I would be quite alarmed.

I cringe'd. The sheer NUMBERS are awful. Nine bases to track. My fireball has six[Rhymer|Dengar|Firesprayx4]. That means outside of clumsy flying [which is hard with a movement radius] they win out in bomber use. You can out-fireball the fireball with decent squad commanding.

just built a quick max squad point rebels (I don't play rebs, but I'm trying)

132 pts

Luke

Dutch

Wedge

Generic Hwk

5 x-wings

33 Blue (possibly 35 or 35 with a guaranteed damage) anti-squad dice

3 black and 5 red bomber dice, 1 black ignoring shields

If I saw this coming after my full-point fireball or an exposed ISD I would be quite alarmed.

I cringe'd. The sheer NUMBERS are awful. Nine bases to track. My fireball has six[Rhymer|Dengar|Firesprayx4]. That means outside of clumsy flying [which is hard with a movement radius] they win out in bomber use. You can out-fireball the fireball with decent squad commanding.

If you want sheer numbers, why not just pack 12 A wings for 132 points? 36 blue, speed 5, 12 black

The counter to the first list is to have no squadrons at all and have more ships.

The counter to the second list is Awings/yt2400s and stay out of medium range OR bomb harder with your own bombers.

Oh, I'm afraid the Imperial fighter screen with be quite flexible, when your friend's arrive.

The counter to the first list is to have no squadrons at all and have more ships.

The counter to the second list is Awings/yt2400s and stay out of medium range OR bomb harder with your own bombers.

First one is risky in a competitive environment you risk list roulette.

just built a quick max squad point rebels (I don't play rebs, but I'm trying)

132 pts

Luke

Dutch

Wedge

Generic Hwk

5 x-wings

33 Blue (possibly 35 or 35 with a guaranteed damage) anti-squad dice

3 black and 5 red bomber dice, 1 black ignoring shields

If I saw this coming after my full-point fireball or an exposed ISD I would be quite alarmed.

For a pure list-building perspective, I run something like this, only replacing Luke for Jan and upgrading the generic HWK to another X-wing with the extra point. But in general, Jan + X-wings + [whatever] will do the job. With Intel, you can focus-fire whoever you want regardless of initial placement because you can move freely. Jan + 4 X-wings + Keyan + 3 B-wings (133) is a dual-threat terror to ships and squadrons. It won't match the raw anti-squadron firepower of the above list, but it's far more deadly against ships that are dumb enough to close. Unless you have Flight Controllers and Boosted Comms on your carriers, then watch out...

What is a good rebel counter to howlrunner, soontir, Vader, 2 tie advanced, 3 interceptors?

Looking for squadron ideas with or without Yavaris.

Also what is the best counter to Vader, advanced, 4 Firesprays, Dengar, and Ryhmer?

Finally, what about 3X advanced, Dengar, Ryhmer, 3/2 Firesprays.

Seems the Rebels are in a pickle against squadrons.

We usually, have a minimum of so many points direct toward squadrons each making lists and pick from the opponent's two fleets.

Beyond simple list-building, there's also the tactical aspect to consider. All three lists you mentioned have a lot of points tied up in Aces and/or expensive squadrons, so they're close to max-point lists, but come in at only 8 squadrons total (max), so they can only fire at up to 8 targets per round. It seems counter-intuitive (since Imps are supposed to be all about swarms while Rebs are about upgraded ships), but if you can push your list into the 10+ squadron range, you'll have the advantage in raw numbers, and if your 10 squads can all take 5 damage, you can win the war of attrition that is the fighter furball. You can push your squad total to 12 with A's (or 13 with Y's), though a mix of 10 generic squads ought to be sufficient (e.g., Jan + 8 X-wings + 1 A-wing = 134), or 8-9 if you have your own Aces, initiative, and most importantly, a plan for the engagement.

The first list has a couple of avenues for attack. First, it has three Aces, and only three Escorts (one of which is an Ace). Two Escort squads cannot protect three squads from attacks from all angels, which means if you have Intel, you can position your squads to focus-fire at least one of the Aces without having to deal with Escort. If Vader is being used as an Escort, four X-wings on average rolls should net eight damage (2 + 2 + 2 + 2), which should be enough to retire Vader unless he burns all his Brace tokens and you roll no higher than 2 damage on any roll (if you roll 3 damage on a single roll, and at least 1 damage on the other three, you'll net exactly 5 damage, I think). If you have Dash Rendar, you may need less. Once Vader is gone, there will only be two Escorts left (which can be worked around with Intel), and if you destroy one of them, you can basically ignore the other by repositioning, and pick off the other squads in whatever order you choose. Soontir's damage is a pain, but 1 damage spread out among 5-hull squadrons is survivable. Counter 3 from the interceptors isn't fun either, but Dutch + Adar + Yavaris double-tap offers the possibility to shut down three interceptors in a single turn if you have initiative.

Second, the first list lacks Intel, which means you can root it in place with a single well-timed, resilient squadron (or pair). A couple of A-wings will do some counter-damage on their way out (and if paired with an X-wing or two, might even live to fire again next round), leaving the rest of your squadrons free to do whatever they please. If you commit all your squadrons to the fray and have Intel, you will have the advantage of repositioning your squadrons to take advantage of any chinks in the enemy's formation as you clear out squadrons, while your opponent will remain rooted in place for the duration of the engagement (unless Chirpy is on a carrier).

Third, the list can only move and shoot with squadron commands, which means it requires at least two dedicated carriers for optimal fighting strength. If you take an X-wing/B-wing list with Intel, you can spend the first round softening up the fighters, and then the second turn hitting a carrier with your B-wings while your X-wings continue the fight with whatever squadrons remain. If your ships can get pressure on the carriers (or if the carriers out-run the stationary fighter furball), the list becomes remarkably impotent if you continue to support your fighters with squadron commands.

The Dengar lists are harder to counter because they gain the benefits of Intel, though there are still options available. The second list only has two TAs, so if you can destroy the non-Vader TA quickly you should be able to isolate Dengar next (dramatically reducing the overall danger posed by the ball), and snowball the effect from there. Firesprays are only slightly more resilient than TAs and no more dangerous to fighters, and once Intel is gone, their greatest advantage (Rogue) means nothing in a furball engagement. The third list has three TAs but no Vader, so your X-wings should generally get faster results burning through Escorts. Again, neutralize Dengar and the ball becomes much less potent (all the bombers are now engaged by your fighters, meaning they can't damage your ships). Keep your own Intel squad alive (lots of X-wings helps), and you can run circles around them once Dengar goes down.

best counter would be dutch, jan ors and as many scurrg bombers as you can fit, ignore them and bomb their ships, they HAVE to stop you or you will blow up their ships before they can do anything

Using A-Wings and squadrons with counter can be a good way to deal free hits to squadrons outside your Activate Squadron commands.

Imperial squadrons have better group synergy while Rebel squadrons are individually powerful. Try to engage cautiously and force them to fight one-on-one. Take time to position yourself and do not rush into a hairball.

This is all really, really, helpful stuff. Squadrons seems to be my big weakness in building because I don't play competitively.

We usually assign a range of squdron points on make two fleets and let the person pick which fleet is better. I am wondering if that approach is causing so of the rub itself. If the imperial fleets are strong I usually play Dash, 2x YT-2400, a-wing to protect the flankers and 2-X-wings, Jan, and Han/Dutch with a ship or ships with two blue squadron dice or Yavaris to activate Dash, Han, and An X wing with squdron command on an AF or on Yavaris 5+57 point version with two blues with a command and token.

I like the idea of one user of getting his Neb B in the fight a little more than I am comfortable doing.mI like to hang it back obstructed by an AF of MC80 because those darn side arcs. Lately I have been thinking of moving it with the MC 30 with ET for more of a flank attack but then I risk a full on attack with the enemy fighter on the AF or MC80 (in bigger games).

Thanks Ryth and other for breaking the issue down in a more technical nuts and bolts statistical perspective.