I am a brand new GM and ran my first session on Saturday. I was GMing for My Dad and My Brother, My brother has played and GMed for several roll playing games. I was really surprisedI , when I went to teach them the Dice mechanics for this game, and My Bro said for me to roll all the dice, and then tell them what happens. Do you guys think this is odd? Bad? Good?

Also, I don't have any actual dice, just the Star Wars RPG dice app.

I also have only the dice app, that it's OK. For the other thing, I am not sure what your brother said to you, can you explain that?

Yes, you roll all the positive and negative dice at the same time, and they can cancel each other out to get you the end result. The dice app makes all the math easier and faster, because it can do the cancellations for you.

I found this a little odd at first, compared to other games where you would roll your skill, and then compare it to the GM's roll. It's odd because you feel like you're rolling against yourself.

I got over it after the first session.

I think I see the problem. No, the GM does not roll everything . The players roll their own dice pools (including the difficulty, set by the GM and modified by talents, destiny points and so on). Determine if the attempt was a success, then the players and the GM work together to narrate the other symbols; generally, the player chooses what to do with the positive symbols, while the GM does so with the negative.

From what the op said it appears to be the preference of at least one of his players. As I see it, although the system is set up for the players to roll their own dice and then have the GM rule on that, if the players want you to roll the dice that is fine. The main thing is that both your players and yourself are aware of how the game is meant to be run but also happy to play it this way instead.

In short, your Bro is incorrect. The Game Master, does not roll everything, and describe everything.

The players DO roll their own dice pools the green, yellow, and blue dice, along with the difficulty dice, the red, purple, and black, as set by the GM. The Players then describe the positive aspects of the dice results. The left over Successes and Advantages.

The Game Master describes the leftover negative results, the Failure, Threats.

The Game Master rolls the dice pools for the NPCs, describes the results from those results.

In this game, as opposed to about all the other others out there that I know of anyway, the players actually get to have a say in what they do, and the the results. I have never played in a game where Players get to really dictate what what can happen in the game world like this, so I think it is a great thing. So you need to tell Bro, that maybe in other games, it may work that way, but in the FFG system, the players get to describe the positive aspects of their dice rolls. It is really their responsibility, and should be. And the most important thing to remember is that while he may have BEEN a GM before, he is not the GM now. And while advice is great, that is all it is, and that you have the final say, not him.

It does make sense for the GM to roll some checks. For example, if a player is making a perception check to identify the motives of an NPC who may be lying to them, you might want to roll the dice hidden. A despair, or multiple threat, on a check like that could mean that the player instead notices something false. However, if the player knew that he rolled a despair, then he would not trust the information.

It does make sense for the GM to roll some checks.

Or not. Some of us roll everything openly...

I'm just thinking of all the extra work for a poor GM that has to roll everything. It's much easier for them to have the players build the pool and deliver the results.

I don't understand the whole I have to hide the roll mentality. I guess in the D20 games it can make sense. I know when I ran RCR/Saga, hiding rolls were ok, but in this game, there is Zero point hiding a roll. Almost as much point as pulling out put the grid maps and WotC minis and using them...

Sorry, not trying to be mean, just trying to get people to get rid a set mentality from a bygone era (or game anyway) that is no longer required here. For those still play and love the D20, great, keep doing what you enjoy, but when playing the FFG system, leave all that old baggage and the bad habits behind. And hidden GM rolling is one of them for this system. Big deal if the players know they have a Despair, or a failed roll, or threats. They should. They should just never hear, yeah, you trust this guy. If a player can't separate what they know and feel from their character, then they really shouldn't be playing this game to begin with.

I don't know, I guess I feel if my PCs meet a con man, and they are being lied to, either I will roll or they will roll. They will probably roll, as I hate to roll anymore, except to make attack rolls, and if the characters can't tell they are being lied to, then guess what, the CHARACTERS don't know they are being lied to. It doesn't matter what they players think or know. Just like a player can't really use the Force, or shoot lightning from his ass, or jump through hyperspace or do whatever... I don't hit players with two by fours to show how it hurts when they get hit in combat, the characters can be fooled, and the players can know his character got fooled, it is ok; though they should be mature enough to understand it's a game, and we are all there to have fun.

Yeah, the desire to hide the rolls stems from a problem where the players don't separate what they know, from what their characters know. It is fairly common and understandable. The term for it is "meta-gaming".

I find it helps to narrate the story by putting an emphasis on what "your character" experiences rather than what "you" experience. And certainly call out your players when they start to meta-game.

Yeah, the desire to hide the rolls stems from a problem where the players don't separate what they know, from what their characters know. It is fairly common and understandable.

That's not my reason, my players don't do that separation very well. I suspect a lot of tables have that problem, so the GMs feel like they have to hide the dice. In this game, I think it's a bad instinct and not because of player/PC separation.

First you have to decide why you are rolling behind a screen. What is the point? If you're hiding the roll, you can come up with whatever result you like. You can toss a couple of D6 around and go "Oh my goodness, a Triumph AND a Despair, whodathunkit?!"

The real reason a lot of GMs roll secretly is so they can control the outcome. After all, if you're actually being true to the dice result, you wouldn't feel the need to hide it. With systems that have a Death Clock Countdown (like D&D), this "massaging the outcome" can actually be important when the player's dice are cold and yours are hot and you really want to avoid a TPK. There's almost an unwritten rule where players suspend their disbelief about what goes on behind the GM screen, and how that dragon amazingly missed just enough times so they could prevail with 1 HP left.

But with EotE that charade is no longer necessary. With the narrative dice, the much lower fatal probabilities, and the flipping of a Destiny Point, there are all sorts of ways to intervene openly without breaking the story. Incapacitation isn't death, it's capture leading to a prison break.

The other main reason GMs hide the roll is they feel they are being fair to the players by rolling the skill check of an NPC. But this is bull, for reasons similar to this article by Angry DM:

http://www.madadventurers.com/angry-rants-you-dont-need-a-system/

The issue then as the GM is how to reframe the roll so that it's still open but you aren't revealing things they would want to act on. And the first rule for that is: don't roll things you don't need to. If an NPC is tailing the PCs, you don't need to roll the NPC's Stealth until there is a reason for the PCs to notice. Until then, that NPC is *perfectly stealthy*. That's your prerogative as the GM.

Then at some point you decide the PCs deserve a chance to notice, so they get to roll their Perception or Vigilance. The only real purpose to doing so is to give the players some narrative agency because regardless of whether they succeed or fail, the result is going to propel the story. You do it only when you want the result to have consequences, and that includes failure. The consequence of success in this matter is maybe they spot who is following them. But if the consequence of failure is nothing, IOW the NPC stays hidden and keeps following, then the roll doesn't really serve a purpose. Rolls should shake up the status quo, not preserve them.

You might say that just because you made them roll, now the players know something is up. But if they fail, there is nothing for them to act on. They can charge into the bushes and search all they want, they already failed their roll so the NPC is safe. There is absolutely nothing they can do that forces you to reveal anything further. Really, this forces the player to separate player from PC knowledge, because they can't do anything about it anyway. However, because the narrative dice tend towards failure + advantage, or success + threat, usually the narrative dice give them something to work with.

You might also say that just because you made them roll, now they see what the opposition's dice pool is like. On the surface this seems like a more reasonable concern, but all I can say about that is, so far it has had zero consequence in my games. It's not really actionable information anyway, same as any other check. If they're Negotiating against a Hutt and see all those reds, they're still rolling.

To sum up, your players don't need to be thespians in order for you to roll everything openly. Only ask for rolls when you need to, and have consequences in mind for each roll request.

Well put Whafrog. I'm glad you were able to explain it better than I could.

Whafrog, this is like the dumbest thing I think I have ever read!! No, I'm just playing! Very well done!! Once again, put it better than I ever could have.

I read something not too long ago on Facebook where a GM was complaining about how his game went bad, and he talked about how he was rolling for NPCs at a gun range... And then the PCs rushed in with a Thermal Detonator that he allowed to be Destiny Pointed in... Just, um, ok, wow. I was just like why are you rolling for guys at a gun range??? I guess he just wanted to roll some dice too. But my point here: I totally agree with you Whafrog, you should only roll dice if they are important to the story, not to see if you can open that easy door, or see if you just drop the glass when getting it out of the cupboard.

This Is GREAT feedback. Thanks guys. So I guess to Me is sounds like I can do it the way we have been, but only if the PCs AND I want it that way. So that clears things up a bit. I feel like the PCs just wanted to get in the game ASAP so they decided to skip dice rolling for them. And also they didn't seem overly keen on learning the Dice system. I guess I will just explain it to them and then have them roll some dice rolls in the 30 min before the Session.

Also I don't ever hide the Dice rolls. That Just seems like bad Ethics to me. If you cant trust the GM you can't trust anything

one last thing, since I just have the dice app, do I just pass the phone around? or should I just bite the bullet and buy 1 or 2 dice sets?

This Is GREAT feedback. Thanks guys. So I guess to Me is sounds like I can do it the way we have been, but only if the PCs AND I want it that way. So that clears things up a bit. Also, how many setback dice would taking cover in a doorway or hiding behind boxes give?

I would default to one. It's really up for interpretation. How solid is the cover? How concealing is it? Are they crouching behind a waste bin or a solid wall? Drywall or steel? That's what I would ask and prepare for. All kinds of things can offer decent concealment, but not all objects offer the same defense.

Basic cover is usually 1 setback, hard cover can be 2. If somebody is firing from a shooting port in a castle wall, that might be 3.

I feel like the PCs just wanted to get in the game ASAP so they decided to skip dice rolling for them. And also they didn't seem overly keen on learning the Dice system.

It took my 50+ year old players 20 minutes. Ask them if they are fossilized already or something Anyway, it's unfair of them to put that burden on you, you'll have enough to do.

one last thing, since I just have the dice app, do I just pass the phone around? or should I just bite the bullet and buy 1 or 2 dice sets?

Personally I prefer the anticipation of the dice clattering and watching them tumble to a result. It's more visceral somehow. But if you don't care about that, then pass the phone around...that way they don't have to learn to interpret the results.

In this game, I think it's a bad instinct and not because of player/PC separation.

The other problem with hiding the roll from the players? It takes four other sources of creativity off the table. Say you come up with a failed roll with despair and triumph and no idea how to apply such a wildly spectacular result. You could hem and haw and come up with something tepid or you could open the floor to ideas and cherry pick the best (or use it as a stepping stone to something you come up with).

Engage the players on all rolls where possible and your game will be stronger for the result.

so it sounds like I need to make sure my PCs know how to use the dice. And get them to use destiny points more. They didn't use any of their 3 once, and I couldn't use any either because of that. Thanks for the help guys!

so it sounds like I need to make sure my PCs know how to use the dice. And get them to use destiny points more. They didn't use any of their 3 once, and I couldn't use any either because of that. Thanks for the help guys!

You bring up an important point! When the players don't know how their rolls are made, they never think of using destiny to downgrade the rolls of enemies or upgrade their own. Thanks for creating this thread, it showed me how vital it is to this game to know the dice!

And get them to use destiny points more. They didn't use any of their 3 once, and I couldn't use any either because of that.

Ah, the old "haha, we can lock you out" BS When my players tried that I told them that the points are in the game for a reason and are meant to be used. So if a reasonable amount of time lapses without them using some, I will simply flip them all over to dark again for my own use...GM fiat, and all that. Now we have a good back and forth...

Ah, the old "haha, we can lock you out" BS When my players tried that I told them that the points are in the game for a reason and are meant to be used. So if a reasonable amount of time lapses without them using some, I will simply flip them all over to dark again for my own use...GM fiat, and all that. Now we have a good back and forth...

Or just tell them "How quaint. You think you can lock the GM out of manipulating the universe by withholding destiny points?" and then throw an upgrade or reinforcements or some kind of bad luck at them without flipping a thing.

no problem moelander. and thank you whafrog and everyone else that helped me out

A bit more horse flogging:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/198079-rolling-openly/