This thread finally got around to some good discussion. Too bad the original poster may not have followed it.

Yes, upgrades do define this game. And for players like me, who collected from the start and have at least one of each expansion already, it's all fine and dandy. But for people who just got into the game lately, I can see how the expectation that they need to purchase 2 cores, 31 expansions and 4 epic ships can be a barrier to entry. Granted, they don't need everything, but having upgrades spread throughout all the expansions does make it difficult. One of the huge benefits of visiting this forum is getting guidance in how to start out, and resources that show what expansions contain what upgrades. Still, I can see the OP's concern even if it might have come off as a hostile tone towards FFG. This topic is worthwhile.

I'm also finally coming around to the conclusion that others have suggested repeatedly. Upgrade only expansions. Offer them by factions, or even better by ship role. Ordnance Carrier, Arc Dodger, Jouster, and faction specific Crew Packs would sell like hotcakes, allowing new players to get in at a competitive level and then buy more ships later as they explore the different squad possibilities of the game.

One more comment, the breakfast filibuster tactic is really quoie tired. I'm glad it got checked before it got out of hand in this thread.

Big ship was never erratad, it never had a ruling till Dash. The phantom thing was because of the amount of QQing on the board. Not really a nerf either, but that's what the boards have decided to call it... When it really isn't and was just a change of play style. Bloody buggers are amazing once you get the hang of them.

EDIT: I hope to god there is never a 2.0 because all that will happen is killing of the community, just because the vocal minority here thinks it will help, just look at the vast complaining and the redaction of the damage deck ruling with the new core set.

Okay I stand corrected on the big ship thing, I never said the Phantom change was a nerf but thses were both examples of some fairly fundamental changes that the X wing community accepted and got on with.

I agree with you on the damage deck, that was poorly handled, should have been the accepted deck for tournaments now we have a weird situation of choosing the deck that best suits your squad.

I have a question do you believe FFG listen to the "Vocal Minority", how much do you believe thses forums have power over far reaching design decisions?

Because I know of another thread on this forum that FFG have been ignoring for 18 months, coughgunboatcough

I should of rephrased that, it wasn't the vocal minority that got it changed, but I am more then certain it helped sway change.

I understand the OP's post, but I'm not really one to want X-wing 2.0. I think it's the only way to really continue. The worst part of it is if I want to do official events and need upgrades from a bunch of ships that I don't really want.

I like the fact that they are doing incremental upgrades for ordnance to make it better. It's a more balanced way to approach it. There is less danger of one thing breaking it.

I feel that if you are a casual player, you should look at it as simple economics. You either proxy or pay the price. Yes, it sucks that you have to buy a lot of ships you don't want. You can always buy the singles later.

I agree with this so much!

I think many people are unaware of how detrimental an over-aggressive fix can be to a game if it turns out to be too powerful. Taking a moderate approach to the ordnance issue was the right thing to do. There is so much to balance with upgrades and the current design team have done an excellent job. No, they haven't been perfect and yes, they got some things wrong but one of the frequent comments you hear about this game is how well balanced it is. With the number of expansions out there and with adding a 3rd faction, this was no easy task.

And no 2.0 for me either. The game is more balanced now then arguably any other point in the history of this game. You want to see people mad? Tell them the game they invested into is over and now they are moving to a 2.0 version.

Humor is a hard thing to do correctly on forums. You may have intended to lighten the mood but new people won't be able to read that intent.

Yeah I try yo keep it in the family most of the time because the forum regulars know me just like I know them, you get me right Brah.

You weren't dealing with a regular and you knew that. If you really meant those as ways to lighten the mood and calm OP down, then you are one of the worst peacemakers I've ever met. I wish you knew the people I know, just so you could fully appreciate that sentence. You also have a history of responding to any criticism of FFG or the game itself with that BAD POST thing you made, instead of explaining why you disagree or (God forbid) actually considering that FFG does sometimes make bad decisions or prioritize profits over player happiness. I've seen you be pretty dismissive and rude about people's opinions and justify it as "dey just hate FFG" but the fact is you aren't really any better. In this case you're worse than OP, because even though he was being a bit entitled he still had a decent point about the downside of FFG's business model. You on the other hand belittled him, cheered on Captain Lackwit when he told OP to leave the forum, and then called OP a crybaby.

The number of likes you get is beside the point. You're still being a ****. This goes for several others as well but your insistence that "this is a happy place" while you insult people with image macros and belittle opinions you don't agree with is more aggravating than the other posts. Lackwit wasn't really any better, but at least he kept it to one or two posts and was honest about his hostility.

"Guidance Chips - Losing Faith in FFG"

Reasons...

Was this supposed to clarify anything? Try using words instead of smilies, if you want people to understand what you're saying.

First off I do think people will a bit harsh with the OP. I get it, but I still don't think he deserved it. It was not the typical sky is falling post, regardless of the topic title.

If you want it, purchase it. If you don't want to purchase it, proxy it or go without. Refusing to proxy and then complaining about it is silly.

I agree more or less. Myself I'm not buying S&V any longer. I got 2 MW packs, a viper, a couple scyk's and that's it. So I make due without the upgrades that come with the S&V ships, so no Crack Shot or Lightning Reflexes. Would be nice to have them but since I decided to play Armada and Imp Aces as well I had to cut back somewhere.

But if you won't proxy, I don't think you have much room to complain about how FFG does things. There is some room, there's always room for a customer to say they'd wish things work differently. But really the only way to make your voice heard is vote with your wallet.

The problem is, unless enough people do that, then the message won't be heard, and that may very well mean 'you' are being unreasonable in your request/demand. If everyone else thinks they're getting a good value then the problem may not be what's being offered.

Now in the case of the OP, what he's asking for isn't completely unreasonable, but is also a poor fix for the existing system, and frankly filled with hyperbole. Simply fixing stuff via a FAQ/Errata is IMO a bad way to do it.

My problem is specifically with this notion of entitlement that people have about the ships or upgrades they want. If you want it, purchase it. If you don't want to purchase it, proxy it or go without.

I'm sure some people come off all entitled. But they still have concerns and may not have worded them well. No one is entitled to luxury items but that doesn't mean that business practices/models can be either more or even less consumer friendly.

I don't have a problem with you personally Ken. You've always been a decent guy around here. I just don't accept the complaints because when you get right down to the core issue its very black and white.

I appreciate that but I don't think I was complaining at all, simply comparing two different types of 'upgrades' and how they have both impacted the game and peoples view on the game. Choosing to proxy is something that I stayed away from for a long time but for my own reason now accept but that doesn't make it better. On one side I've saved some money and on the other it has, for me at least, taken away from the enjoyment of the game. And I still see that as a valid opinion even though I can see growing weary of constant whining. Let me know if I cross that line but we disagree on what is valid and who is allowed to post their thoughts.

Sorry if this sounded harsh.

I am a fanboy by the way and spend far too much on this fab game...

No you don't. You sold your Scum and hardly ever use your Rebels.

Whatever happened to that 4x A-Wing list? Huh? Huh? Huh?

OP is right. Give us card packs, FFG!

Engine upgrade. Hull upgrade. Long range Sensors, Extra munitions. TIE MKII. Guidance chimps, Autothrusters.

Which of these are Autoinclude?

Pick one son.

One of these things is not like the others. One of these things should go in a Torpedo slot.

Bah I meant munitions failsafe, well spotted.

The point's still a good one DariusAPB - Royal Guard Interceptors aside, you're limited to one Modification. And there's quite the range of quality options to choose from now, regardless of what you field.

I'm really looking forward to some of these 0 point mods though. Ships like TIE Bombers, B-Wings, Y-Wings can really see a benefit.

And I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we get double Modifications elsewhere, too.

I think many people are unaware of how detrimental an over-aggressive fix can be to a game if it turns out to be too powerful.

It's a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I've been involved in MMO's where they took the stance FFG is. Make small changes and see if they get the desired results. People start to complain about it saying they'd rather see one large sweeping change and be done with it. But when you do that and over correct then people complain about seeing something nerfed again.

But it really is the best way to do it.

And no 2.0 for me either.

The only way they'd be able to pull off a 2.0 is if doing so did nothing to invalidate any cards people already own. If that means replacing them all for free or a very small fee or something then it would work. But short of that no one is going to trash their whole collection.

OP is right.

No he really isn't.

Give us card packs, FFG!

Will only happen when someone can prove to FFG that doing so would mean they don't end up losing money.

I am a fanboy by the way and spend far too much on this fab game...

No you don't. You sold your Scum and hardly ever use your Rebels.

Whatever happened to that 4x A-Wing list? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Quiet You!

My journey to the Darkside is now complete.

I don't beleive FFG would go all GW on our asses( take that however you will) if they did do a X wing 2.0 I don't think they would invalidate all previous cards. I believe the Force Awakens core set was only a small sub-light jump way from being just that.

I believe the Force Awakens core set was only a small sub-light jump way from being just that.

The new rule book does fix a few things, but people are still having the same debates on the rules form we always did. TFA core also did nothing to really improve things like Ord...

Myself I have trouble believing 2.0 could have any meaningful impact without making some/many/most of the cards obsolete.

Okay, so it took me a while, but I read through this whole thread.

While I agree with most of the posters, and do not like the solution proposed by the OP, I also don't like the way some people came across in their rebuttals.

One of the things that has made this community so good from the beginning is that it has, for the most part, avoided the typical nastiness that exists within the rest of the Internet. I believe we failed here.

I would like to take a slightly different position than the OP, but echo some of his thoughts. I have a serious medical condition, originally discovered in 2008. It is a brain lesion. It has grown 80 fold since its discovery. One of the effects of this lesion is that it is destroying my memory. There will come a time soon when playing any game will probably be impossible.

One of the things that has kept me from playing in tournaments for X-Wing is the very lack of my memory. While this game is simple in concept, it is very complex when it comes to all of the various interactions that exist.

When you take this a step further, and look at the FAQ, and all of the various rulings that have occurred, you can understand why I would be reluctant to play in a competitive environment.

My different take? I, for one, would love it if I could purchase "fixed" upgrade cards that have their updated wording on them, rather than having to remember to review and/or simply know what is in the FAQ.

On the other hand, I can understand from FFG's point of view, why they don't do this.

Thankfully, I have some incredible, supportive friends, who fly casual, and are still willing to play with me, despite my short comings with my memory. They are phenomenal when it comes to being patient, reminding me of things I have forgotten, etc.

I am immensely appreciated of this. And of this community, which has for the most part, been an excellent addition to the game.

Quiet You!

My journey to the Darkside is now complete.

I blame Emperor Palpatine. You just haven't been the same since that shriveled old wizard entered your life.

I think many people are unaware of how detrimental an over-aggressive fix can be to a game if it turns out to be too powerful.

It's a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I've been involved in MMO's where they took the stance FFG is. Make small changes and see if they get the desired results. People start to complain about it saying they'd rather see one large sweeping change and be done with it. But when you do that and over correct then people complain about seeing something nerfed again.

But it really is the best way to do it.

And no 2.0 for me either.

The only way they'd be able to pull off a 2.0 is if doing so did nothing to invalidate any cards people already own. If that means replacing them all for free or a very small fee or something then it would work. But short of that no one is going to trash their whole collection.

I'm not sure about free or very small fee. If it is a reboot then I would gladly pay for new pilot cards that had the built in fixes.

But you're most likely right that FFG isn't looking to do this.

I believe the Force Awakens core set was only a small sub-light jump way from being just that.

The new rule book does fix a few things, but people are still having the same debates on the rules form we always did. TFA core also did nothing to really improve things like Ord...

Myself I have trouble believing 2.0 could have any meaningful impact without making some/many/most of the cards obsolete.

Sorry I missed your post. Yes a 2.0 that fixed thing would have to obsolete both some upgrades and some (most) pilot cards. Obviously the obsoleted upgrades would just go away, but the obsoleted pilot cards would need reprinted with the fixes. Ordnance on the other hand may fall in the middle with some being obsolete and some being okay.

Side note: I kind of thought the Guidance Chips and Long Range Sensors was an interesting fix. Something more stand off with the long range are TL rerolls but once you close you may not get to use it again or something more close range with guaranteed hits with Guidance Chips.

My problem is specifically with this notion of entitlement that people have about the ships or upgrades they want. If you want it, purchase it. If you don't want to purchase it, proxy it or go without.

I'm sure some people come off all entitled. But they still have concerns and may not have worded them well. No one is entitled to luxury items but that doesn't mean that business practices/models can be either more or even less consumer friendly.

I don't have a problem with you personally Ken. You've always been a decent guy around here. I just don't accept the complaints because when you get right down to the core issue its very black and white.

I appreciate that but I don't think I was complaining at all, simply comparing two different types of 'upgrades' and how they have both impacted the game and peoples view on the game. Choosing to proxy is something that I stayed away from for a long time but for my own reason now accept but that doesn't make it better. On one side I've saved some money and on the other it has, for me at least, taken away from the enjoyment of the game. And I still see that as a valid opinion even though I can see growing weary of constant whining. Let me know if I cross that line but we disagree on what is valid and who is allowed to post their thoughts.

Sorry if this sounded harsh.

It's all good. Perhaps I unfairly pulled you into the conversation as my original comment was directed at the OP. And of course everyone has a right to voice their opinion even if it is counter to my own. I've just grown particularly tired of much of the complaining around here and don't have much patience for it.

And for the record I totally feel for the new players who get in and face hundreds of dollars in investments to catch up to players who have been able to spread purchases out over the past three plus years. That's one of the reasons why I encourage newer players to proxy stuff while they are figuring out the game. Seriously, how many times have you gone to the game shop and seen a brand new player put a bunch of poor upgrades and/or ordnance options on the table and you know it's going to be a bloodbath because they don't know any better yet?

I prefer to foster an environment where this game is fun and approachable. With that I try and give new players advice to help foster that environment. If someone brand new is left feeling that the only way they can be good or competitive is to drop hundreds of dollars on the game then that lessens the chance they will take the plunge. The MSRP of the products in this game are more than reasonable. And honestly some of my surliness is derived from the thread and conversations surrounding the elimination of steep discounts. No, that situation doesn't help new players but I think the existence of those discounts to begin with has led to much of the entitlement sentiment out there right now. I've avoided that thread because I don't want to make my head explode, lol.

The thing that really irritated me about this thread was that the current design team finally has a great fix for ordinance and then people turn around and complain about it. Especially when the OP starts venting about having to purchase a bunch of TAP's because he doesn't like the show Rebels and is oblivious to the fact that you get 2 copies with the Jumpmaster 5000...which of course will bring out the people complaining that they don't play Scum. Track record indicates that these will get released elsewhere too in the future but people want them now and they want them for free etc etc.

I keep coming onto this forum because I enjoy conversation about ships and lists and different interactions and concepts I hadn't thought of or seen yet. Unfortunately it's become a forum filled with crying over this that or the other. Too much of it is anyway. I still have a hope that this place can turn around and be less complaining and more constructive.

One of the ways I've found getting around the learning curve (even for me) is I printed out MJ's list of squads. Yes I actually printed it but I do keep an on-line copy too. But I can take a page and give it to a player or they can go though the list and pick their own squad. Can I get back on my soap box for a minute? I hope that FFG comes out with a book, even print on demand, or missions/scenarios with suggested pre-built squads. Too many say there squad builds in the articles aren't very competitive. Could be because they have to focus on what the article is about. I don't know. It doesn't change the cost of getting the cards or getting into the game but...

Either way: Squads to go so to speak.

And for the record I totally feel for the new players who get in and face hundreds of dollars in investments to catch up...

I agree and disagree. In some ways new players have it better then us who've been around since wave 2 or 3. It's much easier on the wallet to buy 1 Interceptor and 2 Imp Aces pack then 4 Interceptors, 4 A-Wings and 1-2 Imp Aces. Because you want 4 interceptors with PtL. Heck there's no reason to have 4 interceptors at all really.

It's not like I actually need the extra 4 copies of Daredevil...

I prefer to foster an environment where this game is fun and approachable.

If you have a new player, you should IMO let them either proxy most everything or loan them extra's you might have, until they've had time to actually buy the ships they want to fly. Anyone not willing to do so, should be tarred and feathered...

Myself I've given away a number of extra upgrade cards I've had. We had a kid start playing and he preferred the Empire side so I gave him my extra X1 and ATC cards. I had 2 Advanced + 1 from the Raider so only needed three.

Yes a 2.0 that fixed thing would have to obsolete both some upgrades and some (most) pilot cards. Obviously the obsoleted upgrades would just go away, but the obsoleted pilot cards would need reprinted with the fixes.

I'd be willing to pay a small fee to replace existing cards, but not much more then that. I have ton of cards and if it cost me $100 to replace them all, I'd just not bother with 2.0