I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

TIE Advanced Prototypes can also be fielded for 16 points, so you can make use of the several copies you buy.

How well does a double Starviper or K-wing list work out?

Lots of talk but little ideas on solutions? What's the solution to all of this? FFG sells booster packs of cards or they sell each individual card by themselves so people only go out and buy the exact thing they need so anyone can go out and just buy the hottest new meta because the internet told them so or someone won with a specific list?

Everyone's worried about these fixes coming with other ships like the game was suppose to be perfect right there in front of us from wave 1. No game is perfect off the bat. The first few sets of MTG had cards so ******* broken that they had to ban them in later tournaments, and ante, they got rid of an entire part of the game and banned the cards that had anything to do with it. This game in reality is still in its infancy to me, FFG is learning, and these fixes are coming because of the inevitable power creep. More cards that do more powerful things, rendering older ships out dated, so a fix comes along and you have to pay for it and get other stuff to go with it. The only one I can see being the biggest pain in the ass is the Advanced fix with the Raider. I had every intention of buying the Raider, so this wasn't an issue, but where should that fix have been? Tie advanced expansion pack v2.0? that comes with 2-3 fixes? At least the Defender fix is coming with a Defender, and those who don't like it, where should those cards be? FFG said they will never sell individual cards or card packs, so is the solution to pull the older models off the shelves and replace them?

Everything is hypothetical, I get it, but the amount of unabated hate here is getting a little out of hand.

Let this thread die.

Please.

I think it's far more harsh to tell new players that they need to buy a separate $90 expansion to be able to play their $15 expansion at all.

Right, but what are you really getting at?

I mean, some ships need fixes. New players can either lose a lot because they're at an unfair* disadvantage, or they can buy the fixes.

Neither situation is really good.

* - Unfair here meaning a quantifiable disadvantage, not simple unfamiliarity with the rules and ship abilities.

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

The K-wing and StarViper were both larger, more expensive ships. The Punishing One, which is also a larger, more expensive ship, will also come with two copies (check the card fan in the preview article).

I think you're pretty much making the point for us here, honestly. Unless you think the cards cost $1.25 each to produce?

Everyone's worried about these fixes coming with other ships like the game was suppose to be perfect right there in front of us from wave 1. No game is perfect off the bat. The first few sets of MTG had cards so ******* broken that they had to ban them in later tournaments, and ante, they got rid of an entire part of the game and banned the cards that had anything to do with it. This game in reality is still in its infancy to me, FFG is learning

Seriously? Magic was an absolutely revolutionary game for its time. The wide ranging abilities, the collectible nature, etc. Did they have some missteps? Sure. Balance was definitely awful. But ante wasn't broken at all - players just didn't like it.

X-wing may be in its infancy, but there's nothing the least bit revolutionary about it. The maneuver system was largely lifted from Wings of War. The ability system is the exact same as started with the MtG you cite, with 25 years or so to refine. Even if you don't want to consider industry knowledge, FFG themselves had several CCGs running long before X-wing, including games which came out either before X-wing or close to it which don't have NEARLY the problems it does.

FFG may be still be learning, but at this point they really shouldn't be, and if they are it's nothing but an indication of incompetence.

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

Tie FOs come with one Juke and Comms each... They're small blisters after all...

Everyone's worried about these fixes coming with other ships like the game was suppose to be perfect right there in front of us from wave 1. No game is perfect off the bat. The first few sets of MTG had cards so ******* broken that they had to ban them in later tournaments, and ante, they got rid of an entire part of the game and banned the cards that had anything to do with it. This game in reality is still in its infancy to me, FFG is learning

Seriously? Magic was an absolutely revolutionary game for its time. The wide ranging abilities, the collectible nature, etc. Did they have some missteps? Sure. Balance was definitely awful. But ante wasn't broken at all - players just didn't like it.

X-wing may be in its infancy, but there's nothing the least bit revolutionary about it. The maneuver system was largely lifted from Wings of War. The ability system is the exact same as started with the MtG you cite, with 25 years or so to refine. Even if you don't want to consider industry knowledge, FFG themselves had several CCGs running long before X-wing, including games which came out either before X-wing or close to it which don't have NEARLY the problems it does.

FFG may be still be learning, but at this point they really shouldn't be, and if they are it's nothing but an indication of incompetence.

Both games had their problems, but the movement system is pretty different from X-Wing in all those games.

First WoW/G uses cards not templates. Then you have to plan several turns in advance, not one. Also it has a special movement Deck for each plane. The bases have no guides iirc, and you can include an altitude system unlike in X-Wing.

You also have no maneuver dials, nor pilot skill, nor anything similar to upgrades (bombs exist though).

Comparing this is like comparing Chess to Checkers!

X-Wing was revolutionary, it combined an easy to learn 2D maneuvering game to an initiative system and an upgrade system, as wellas a D8 dice system AND easily accessible gorgeously prepainted (some might disagree here XD) miniatures.

It was revolutionary and its success is justified by that fact!

Also at this point, dear Buhallin, i feel no matter what anyone tells you, you won't get to like FFGs sales model.

Sure it's not perfect and you have your reasons, but if you have no intention of paying the full price for what you need to have to play, then just stop buying!

If you don't play competitively, proxy, if you do, go online and purchase single cards...

I would also like to have card booster packs sold separately, but FFG needs to make money too i guess, they are a company and need to have their income maximized to survive on the market.

And a part of the money we give them goes into new goodies for our preferred games in order to keep our addictions fed by cool new ships and upgrade cards!

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

The K-wing and StarViper were both larger, more expensive ships. The Punishing One, which is also a larger, more expensive ship, will also come with two copies (check the card fan in the preview article).

You know which other "medium" ship came in the same wave as the K-Wing, had the boost action, and could have come with two copies of Autothrusters?

Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that the card they chose to include two copies of was a form of trolling from FFG to our requests of more copies of Autothrusters? Seriously? They laugh at us.

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

The K-wing and StarViper were both larger, more expensive ships. The Punishing One, which is also a larger, more expensive ship, will also come with two copies (check the card fan in the preview article).

You know which other "medium" ship came in the same wave as the K-Wing, had the boost action, and could have come with two copies of Autothrusters?

Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that the card they chose to include two copies of was a form of trolling from FFG to our requests of more copies of Autothrusters? Seriously? They laugh at us.

Ah but that came with two Twin Ion engines, I bought two punishers, so my three Defenders could have them........hang on a minute

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

The K-wing and StarViper were both larger, more expensive ships. The Punishing One, which is also a larger, more expensive ship, will also come with two copies (check the card fan in the preview article).

You know which other "medium" ship came in the same wave as the K-Wing, had the boost action, and could have come with two copies of Autothrusters?

Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that the card they chose to include two copies of was a form of trolling from FFG to our requests of more copies of Autothrusters? Seriously? They laugh at us.

Ah but that came with two Twin Ion engines, I bought two punishers, so my three Defenders could have them........hang on a minute

Hmm. I misremembered that one. Yes. TIE Mark II isn't so bad to include two of. I thought it was two copies of Enhanced Scopes. Anyway, I could have lived without another copy of Enhanced Scopes.

Everyone's worried about these fixes coming with other ships like the game was suppose to be perfect right there in front of us from wave 1. No game is perfect off the bat. The first few sets of MTG had cards so ******* broken that they had to ban them in later tournaments, and ante, they got rid of an entire part of the game and banned the cards that had anything to do with it. This game in reality is still in its infancy to me, FFG is learning

Seriously? Magic was an absolutely revolutionary game for its time. The wide ranging abilities, the collectible nature, etc. Did they have some missteps? Sure. Balance was definitely awful. But ante wasn't broken at all - players just didn't like it.

X-wing may be in its infancy, but there's nothing the least bit revolutionary about it. The maneuver system was largely lifted from Wings of War. The ability system is the exact same as started with the MtG you cite, with 25 years or so to refine. Even if you don't want to consider industry knowledge, FFG themselves had several CCGs running long before X-wing, including games which came out either before X-wing or close to it which don't have NEARLY the problems it does.

FFG may be still be learning, but at this point they really shouldn't be, and if they are it's nothing but an indication of incompetence.

And the problem is not quite that some ships are not up to par, the problem is that their fixes cost money. That rubs me the wrong way; I didn't create the TIE Advanced the way it is, why should I pay for the erratum?

Let this thread die.

Please.

People are talking civilly. What's the problem?

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

The K-wing and StarViper were both larger, more expensive ships. The Punishing One, which is also a larger, more expensive ship, will also come with two copies (check the card fan in the preview article).

I think you're pretty much making the point for us here, honestly. Unless you think the cards cost $1.25 each to produce?

I'm not making anyone's point for them. I'm pointing out, for someone who may not know, that (1) FFG has a self-imposed limit on the number of cards in each "size" box, and (2) Guidance Chips are coming in two different Wave 8 packages.

Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that the card they chose to include two copies of was a form of trolling from FFG to our requests of more copies of Autothrusters? Seriously? They laugh at us.

You've already backed off most of this point, but I guarantee FFG isn't trolling us or laughing at us. They're gamers, too. They're doing their best, within constraints including the game's established distribution model, to get us the cards we want and need.

The TIE Advanced came out 4 years ago, it was a different era.

The Raider makes the TIE Advanced competitive, but you don't need real cards to play with friends.

And you don't need TIE Advanceds in your lists to be competitive. It's still a clunker without Engine Upgrade.

You can buy the Raider online for 63 bucks. That's the alcohol bill for one night of barhopping and the raider doesn't give you diarrhea, a hangover, and a public urination ticket.

The TIE Advanced came out 4 years ago, it was a different era.

The Raider makes the TIE Advanced competitive, but you don't need real cards to play with friends.

And you don't need TIE Advanceds in your lists to be competitive. It's still a clunker without Engine Upgrade.

You can buy the Raider online for 63 bucks. That's the alcohol bill for one night of barhopping and the raider doesn't give you diarrhea, a hangover, and a public urination ticket.

Remind me to never go bar hopping on with you.

Pheaver List cost:

Core set: $40

Y-wing x 2: $30

Millennium Falcon/Slave 1: $30

Rebel Transport: $60

Z-95: $15

Most wanted: $40

Starviper: $20

K-wing: $20

New core: $40

Total $295 (unless I forgot something)

Now it would be somewhat cheaper if you bought these on Amazon or just got the cards on EBay. The core set of course was way marked down at one point at target. There's stuff from the original core and wave 1 all the way to wave 7 and the new core, so if that was spread out it would have cost roughly 50-100 bucks a year.

The biggest thing that bothers me is that most wanted only contributed cards and the scum y and Zs were redundant, as well as the large/huge ships and 'medium' ships. That's not effecient! Of course there's nothing to stop anyone from playing with the other models in other lists. With all that you can make lots of fun rebel and scum lists, and have half an Imperial/FO list unless you opted for Slave One and not the Falcon. (Pheaver definately got the VI from his falcon from a previous world championship list). Spending about 300 bucks on a video game system won't get you as much value as all this plastic crack!

You can buy the Raider online for 63 bucks. That's the alcohol bill for one night of barhopping and the raider doesn't give you diarrhea, a hangover, and a public urination ticket.

Learn to drink.

You can buy the Raider online for 63 bucks. That's the alcohol bill for one night of barhopping and the raider doesn't give you diarrhea, a hangover, and a public urination ticket.

Learn to drink.

Or preferably, learn to not drink.

I can hardly justify spending any more than 10 bucks on beer at the store. 60+ a night?

Christ, bro.

I think the StarViper's was the first ship the specifically needed a larger packaging for so they used the opportunity to include a larger number if cards in the package. The new packaging actually does cis q a bit of $ compared to the cards but a player doesn't care about that - ffg realises this and sweetens the deal with more cards (which are cheap for them cost wise but valuable to players)

I would have nothing against Card booster packs sold separately from the ships. But this will not happen as far as i can see.

I was under the firm impression that X-Wing sales were going pretty well, and they have now been the second biggest miniature game behind 40k for at least a year. So they probably have no reason to change their sales model!

Sadly, I agree - we certainly won't see card packs.

And sales are going great, and they're making a ton of money on it. But that can't hold forever. This sort of pain only increases over time, and will affect more and more players. The reprinted ships can also only work so many times - as mentioned above, a big part of what burned me out was the realization of just how many ships I pay for that I never use, and Imperial Veterans would just be more of the same.

Will it kill the game? I honestly have no idea. I have a very high threshold for acceptable cost, and I'm pretty amazed that anyone is still OK with it once I hit my limit. But nothing about this model improves over time - useless ships, spread of ships you have to purchase to be competitive, and the way the sales model paints them into a corner on a major game revision all point to a deteriorating state for the game. I'm thinking relatively long term here, but while X-wing may currently be overtopping other minis games, I expect the others on top of the list will outlast it.

This is the one thing that scares me in this whole thread. I'm ok with the spread of cards, because I collect everything (which is kinda selfish, I know). I usually avoid getting expansions for the cards, I actually get them to play the ships. But I don't like that this "fixing" model feeds off the existence of useless ships. You either start increasing the power level of ships gradually, or you run out of ships. Or... you make ships intentionally duds, which is wrong. The scyk comes to mind, I can't imagine how it wasn't seen as a useless ship from the start. And now it's first on the fix-it list for Scum.

edit:*thing

Making ships duds intentionally might backfire, because people will learn not to buy stuff when it's released, but rather wait for the inevitable fix.

Making ships duds intentionally might backfire, because people will learn not to buy stuff when it's released, but rather wait for the inevitable fix.

Depends. Maybe the Starviper sells well because of autothrusters, maybe it does not because it is perceived to be a weak ship. I don't know how well it is doing, nor the reason.

If a fix is packaged along with a weak ship or a ship that sees little use, it can boost sales. Examples: epic play is probably far less popular than standard, but the X1 title can boost Raider sales. Poe Dameron is the most popular T-70 pilot and he is not in the T-70 expansion, but that expansion does contain Integrated Astromech, which is likely increasing sales again.

Nothing I've seen from the designers suggests that they would intentionally make a dud ship. Conservative at times, sure. But, we should remember what can happen when they aren't (see Phantom).