Hindsight is 20/20, especially when you look back on design. The designers do their best, but they cannot know for certain what will happen when they introduce something new into the game. Especially when you have different designers.

But what would be fair? Who should pay for the corrections of those mistakes?

FFG has not released a ship that is unusable or unfair. Maybe it wasn't as effective or powerful as you wanted it to be, but the ship was playable and fun. I still used TAs before the Raider! I continue to use Defenders. This game is not JUST about high level tournament play. It is about casual and epic as well.

That being said, the only "mistake" that FFG might have made was in the phantom. No one paid for that fix. FFG has also done a stand up job of not forcing players to buy anything. While some complain about the damage deck ruling, I applaud it. Even in tournaments, there are many casual players that attend and often do not buy more than the ships they are interested in. This is not the norm in such games. Most games force to you throw out your collection to start again every year or so!

Personally; I've not had much of an issue with the business model because I've been collecting ALL the toys. Maybe that just means I'm stupid enough to be suckered in but I like the freedom of list building with full access to everything, being able to experiment with play styles & I like to play friends who love X-Wing but can't afford to invest due to kids, families etc. Recently, however, I have felt the business model has been stretched a little. It's only little things like Wired only being available in the TFA core set and only 1 copy included or the TIE Adv. "fix" being packaged with the Raider but between the heavy release schedule of new ships and "fixes" I'm finding it a real struggle to keep up. Sure I can run 4 Green Squadrons with Wired, PTL and autothrusters at home but I'd have to buy 4 copies of the TFA core set if I want to run it at an event. That's £120 just to get 4 copies of Wired for competitive play.

On the one hand I love Alex Davey's ethos of "every ship should be viable" but it seems like they have to do an awful lot of retconning to achieve this as opposed to via a steady and well tested release schedule. Sure; I understand they're only human, people make mistakes and there's only a limited number of playtesters etc. but the past couple of months have been pretty hard for me to keep up with my collection and I honestly feel like I should thin my collection out and focus on one faction. And then I need a starviper for autothrusters and a phantom for another Tactician & we start the cycle again...

I won't pay silly aftermarket prices on single cards either. I'd rather spend £10 on another E-wing than £8 on just the Advanced Sensors card so although I'm aware that this possibility exists; I refuse to line an ebay addicts pockets for the sake of £2.

4 Tempests with Accuracy Corrector needs 4 starvipers (or IG-2000's), 1 raider and 3 tie advanced packs. That's about £180 for a 4 ship list. It's barriers to entry like that that I think will really start to turn off newer players. It's not such an issue for me having bought everything pretty much as it's released but I honestly feel like FFG is loosing one of their best selling points; an easily accessible game with a (relatively) low entry bar.

This isn't a rant; just my opinion. Not necessarily that of others

Intent doesn't matter insofar as it affects you, especially if they're not going to change their philosophy, but I think it's important to know because if a company is doing something that doesn't work but with good intent I hold out hope that they'll be more willing change their approach in the future.

This makes our discussion here rather pointless, but it is what it is. If the business model is broadly perceived as something very negative, then it might change in spite of good financial results.

Personally; I've not had much of an issue with the business model because I've been collecting ALL the toys. Maybe that just means I'm stupid enough to be suckered in but I like the freedom of list building with full access to everything, being able to experiment with play styles & I like to play friends who love X-Wing but can't afford to invest due to kids, families etc. Recently, however, I have felt the business model has been stretched a little. It's only little things like Wired only being available in the TFA core set and only 1 copy included or the TIE Adv. "fix" being packaged with the Raider but between the heavy release schedule of new ships and "fixes" I'm finding it a real struggle to keep up. Sure I can run 4 Green Squadrons with Wired, PTL and autothrusters at home but I'd have to buy 4 copies of the TFA core set if I want to run it at an event. That's £120 just to get 4 copies of Wired for competitive play.

This isn't a rant; just my opinion. Not necessarily that of others

I too am a little miffed at only 1 copy of Wired (and the techs) in the Core, and was even more so when Wired did not show up in either the FO or the T-70 expansion. I expect to see Wired and Tech in future expansions though. We use to have the same complaints about EU, SD, and VI. There is a lot of new stuff out there and still to come. I think FFG wants to provide the variety first before rehashing the upgrades.

Personally; I've not had much of an issue with the business model because I've been collecting ALL the toys. Maybe that just means I'm stupid enough to be suckered in but I like the freedom of list building with full access to everything, being able to experiment with play styles & I like to play friends who love X-Wing but can't afford to invest due to kids, families etc. Recently, however, I have felt the business model has been stretched a little. It's only little things like Wired only being available in the TFA core set and only 1 copy included or the TIE Adv. "fix" being packaged with the Raider but between the heavy release schedule of new ships and "fixes" I'm finding it a real struggle to keep up. Sure I can run 4 Green Squadrons with Wired, PTL and autothrusters at home but I'd have to buy 4 copies of the TFA core set if I want to run it at an event. That's £120 just to get 4 copies of Wired for competitive play.

On the one hand I love Alex Davey's ethos of "every ship should be viable" but it seems like they have to do an awful lot of retconning to achieve this as opposed to via a steady and well tested release schedule. Sure; I understand they're only human, people make mistakes and there's only a limited number of playtesters etc. but the past couple of months have been pretty hard for me to keep up with my collection and I honestly feel like I should thin my collection out and focus on one faction. And then I need a starviper for autothrusters and a phantom for another Tactician & we start the cycle again...

I won't pay silly aftermarket prices on single cards either. I'd rather spend £10 on another E-wing than £8 on just the Advanced Sensors card so although I'm aware that this possibility exists; I refuse to line an ebay addicts pockets for the sake of £2.

4 Tempests with Accuracy Corrector needs 4 starvipers (or IG-2000's), 1 raider and 3 tie advanced packs. That's about £180 for a 4 ship list. It's barriers to entry like that that I think will really start to turn off newer players. It's not such an issue for me having bought everything pretty much as it's released but I honestly feel like FFG is loosing one of their best selling points; an easily accessible game with a (relatively) low entry bar.

This isn't a rant; just my opinion. Not necessarily that of others

It's only a barrier to entry if the only way one plans on playing the game is with a very specific list of ships and upgrades. If one instead plays the game with the cards included in the ships one buys, and one buys the ships one likes, one can build many perfectly serviceable squads. It's only when a person starts getting competitive, netlisting, or becomes a slave to the meta that purchases like the ones mentioned become necessary (in the loosest sense of the word). The cash spent is no longer a barrier to entry but just the cost of being competitive and is hardly unique to X-Wing. Basically, new players shouldn't and aren't expected to start with a 4 Tempest AC list. The core set (especially discounted) is incredible value to get someone started.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have more copies of Wired and Integrated Astromech, and Weapons Guidance, and Juke, and any number of cards, so I agree just getting one in any given set is a bit of a letdown, but claiming a tournament-level list as a barrier to entry for someone just getting started is a bit disingenuous.

It's only a barrier to entry if the only way one plans on playing the game is with a very specific list of ships and upgrades. If one instead plays the game with the cards included in the ships one buys, and one buys the ships one likes, one can build many perfectly serviceable squads. It's only when a person starts getting competitive, netlisting, or becomes a slave to the meta that purchases like the ones mentioned become necessary (in the loosest sense of the word). The cash spent is no longer a barrier to entry but just the cost of being competitive and is hardly unique to X-Wing. Basically, new players shouldn't and aren't expected to start with a 4 Tempest AC list. The core set (especially discounted) is incredible value to get someone started.

Of course, one might say 'just proxy card XXX', but this does raise the question why a casual player would buy cards at all, if proxying is okay. If the cards are only needed by competitive player, maybe a casual player would prefer to have a smaller pricetag on the models and buy the cards separately when he feels he needs them.

Finally, some players just bring their best list - inevitably a 'netlist' because it is bloody difficult to come up with something really new and really good - to a casual game. And why not? This is not ultra-competitive, people want to win, even if there is no tournament trophy at stake. The weekly game at the club is important, too. Beginning players with just the core set and 2 expansions are going to run into Palpmobile + aces and 4TLT lists. A casual player will discover that playing without Autothrusters or Integrated Astromech can be just as frustrating outside a tournament. And again, proxying those cards raises the question why we all would pay for stuff that, apparently, is only needed by competitive players. Apart from the fact that many casual players restrict themselves to the cards anyway.

I really only have 2 gripes when it comes to the way things are bundled;

1. When cards that are almost vital to certain ships are only available in a different faction. Prime example being Autothrusters only being in the SV when I couldn't imagine flying Fel without it at this point. This really hurts people that only want to play 1 faction.

2. Things showing up with epic ships that are vital to small ships, AKA the X1 title. There is simply no reason to not run the X1. and you cannot get it without a $100 ship that some people may never use.

I don't see things showing up in Aces packs as being a bad thing, like Royal Guard being in Imperial Aces, or the Refit being in Rebel Aces, because I always recommend those to new players if they like those factions in general.

These issues don't really mess with me since I buy everything, but I has seen multiple players complain about the X1 title in my local area. I gave away 2 of mine to new players since I won't ever competitively need 4 and I will just proxy if I want more for epic, also doubtful.

Personally; I've not had much of an issue with the business model because I've been collecting ALL the toys. Maybe that just means I'm stupid enough to be suckered in but I like the freedom of list building with full access to everything, being able to experiment with play styles & I like to play friends who love X-Wing but can't afford to invest due to kids, families etc. Recently, however, I have felt the business model has been stretched a little. It's only little things like Wired only being available in the TFA core set and only 1 copy included or the TIE Adv. "fix" being packaged with the Raider but between the heavy release schedule of new ships and "fixes" I'm finding it a real struggle to keep up. Sure I can run 4 Green Squadrons with Wired, PTL and autothrusters at home but I'd have to buy 4 copies of the TFA core set if I want to run it at an event. That's £120 just to get 4 copies of Wired for competitive play.

On the one hand I love Alex Davey's ethos of "every ship should be viable" but it seems like they have to do an awful lot of retconning to achieve this as opposed to via a steady and well tested release schedule. Sure; I understand they're only human, people make mistakes and there's only a limited number of playtesters etc. but the past couple of months have been pretty hard for me to keep up with my collection and I honestly feel like I should thin my collection out and focus on one faction. And then I need a starviper for autothrusters and a phantom for another Tactician & we start the cycle again...

I won't pay silly aftermarket prices on single cards either. I'd rather spend £10 on another E-wing than £8 on just the Advanced Sensors card so although I'm aware that this possibility exists; I refuse to line an ebay addicts pockets for the sake of £2.

4 Tempests with Accuracy Corrector needs 4 starvipers (or IG-2000's), 1 raider and 3 tie advanced packs. That's about £180 for a 4 ship list. It's barriers to entry like that that I think will really start to turn off newer players. It's not such an issue for me having bought everything pretty much as it's released but I honestly feel like FFG is loosing one of their best selling points; an easily accessible game with a (relatively) low entry bar.

This isn't a rant; just my opinion. Not necessarily that of others

It's only a barrier to entry if the only way one plans on playing the game is with a very specific list of ships and upgrades. If one instead plays the game with the cards included in the ships one buys, and one buys the ships one likes, one can build many perfectly serviceable squads. It's only when a person starts getting competitive, netlisting, or becomes a slave to the meta that purchases like the ones mentioned become necessary (in the loosest sense of the word). The cash spent is no longer a barrier to entry but just the cost of being competitive and is hardly unique to X-Wing. Basically, new players shouldn't and aren't expected to start with a 4 Tempest AC list. The core set (especially discounted) is incredible value to get someone started.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have more copies of Wired and Integrated Astromech, and Weapons Guidance, and Juke, and any number of cards, so I agree just getting one in any given set is a bit of a letdown, but claiming a tournament-level list as a barrier to entry for someone just getting started is a bit disingenuous.

It's more about how much the competitive barrier has been pushed up as opposed to where it rests currently. I feel there's a huge step between casual and competitive now and a year ago, whilst it was there, it wasn't quite this high. I'm not saying anyone has to run an expensive list and BBBBZ still does well as a cheap list to build; just that that barrier seems to be raising and I feel it's a bit of a shame as its one of the things that separated x-wing from other games in my eyes.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not bitching about it. I own everything released (often multiples of) and I'm prepared to spend the cash. I just feel like it's becoming harder to keep up with at that level with every new wave due to the distribution of the cards as opposed to the cash itself. And how many people come into the game and want to fly Vader at events? Seen it a lot recently with our new league season starting; then they get all upset the tittle for that ship comes in a huge ship. I get why FFG have done it; I just feel like it does put some newer players off. Mainly because of the reactions I've seen recently. I've seen a lot of guys grumble at the fact they have both core sets, a t-70, t-65 and there's more x-wing goodies in the rebel transport. I get that it's better than most other games but the majority of people picking x-wing up (at least locally) right now are not experienced war gamers so aren't used to that big step.

We have a good community and everyone's happy to lend cards so it's been keeping the newer guys turning up regularly but I think for a lot of them; joining the league (even though it's casual and to build a community) would have been a lot more intimidating otherwise. For me; without competitive play I would hardly ever play the **** game. It's that simple. Most of my games are at tournaments or our local league and we have no FLGS without an hours drive so the only way to build/meet the wider community here is to compete. Or stay at home. I think that's where the barrier becomes problematic. Not for everyone but for people in more isolated areas or no pre-existing war gamer friends. To take those first steps in to a larger world you want to turn up with a tournament level build so you don't pay £12.50 to loose all day (yes, I know the dice Gods just have whims). Like I say; I just feel it's a shame that step is getting bigger as with all the TFA hype we've had the local community pretty much double in size in a month and I'd like to see them all continuing to play and having fun with us as opposed to playing themselves at home.

Personally; I've not had much of an issue with the business model because I've been collecting ALL the toys. Maybe that just means I'm stupid enough to be suckered in but I like the freedom of list building with full access to everything, being able to experiment with play styles & I like to play friends who love X-Wing but can't afford to invest due to kids, families etc. Recently, however, I have felt the business model has been stretched a little. It's only little things like Wired only being available in the TFA core set and only 1 copy included or the TIE Adv. "fix" being packaged with the Raider but between the heavy release schedule of new ships and "fixes" I'm finding it a real struggle to keep up. Sure I can run 4 Green Squadrons with Wired, PTL and autothrusters at home but I'd have to buy 4 copies of the TFA core set if I want to run it at an event. That's £120 just to get 4 copies of Wired for competitive play.

This isn't a rant; just my opinion. Not necessarily that of others

I too am a little miffed at only 1 copy of Wired (and the techs) in the Core, and was even more so when Wired did not show up in either the FO or the T-70 expansion. I expect to see Wired and Tech in future expansions though. We use to have the same complaints about EU, SD, and VI. There is a lot of new stuff out there and still to come. I think FFG wants to provide the variety first before rehashing the upgrades.

I'm sure they will eventually and it's not like I actually want to run 4 greens at my next tourney, just an example.

I can certainly agree with you on the increasing buy-in to be seriously competitive. It's unfortunately also the nature of constantly expanding games that it gets expensive to catch up if you start late. Not to mention the lack of a Scum starter set, which is unfortunate if that's the only faction you want to collect. Luckily there isn't (anymore) just one or two good tournament builds, and perusing some of the tournament report threads should enable anyone to find a decently competitive build for a price they can afford. I think there are plenty of squad builds that are close enough in power that someone can usually fly what they like with a good chance of winning. Hopefully that continues and the number of viable ships and upgrades only increases.

We're kinda right to be jerks. He decided rather than to make a copy of the card, or draw one or whatever he could have done he instead wanted the world to conform to him. He felt that a massive multinational company should redo an entire aspect of their game for him, for casual, kitchen table play, where you could probably show up with photocopied ships and be good. Sometimes you've gotta be the bad guy, because there's someone out there that's worse.

Also, I'm totally gonna head to a game store with photocopied Gladiators and a few hand drawn cards, just because I'm too **** poor to afford $70 worth of models. And nobody will give a **** because they understand my situation. Just like they would have understood his.

Unrelated, I don't play X-wing. I'm waiting for the Imperial Veterans, because I love TIE Defenders more than I've loved a woman, and I want a triple defender list, **** it.

Actually, most of their sales come from non-competitive players. Think about it. if just thier sales came from people who went to Store championships and up (guesstimating a large number of players occur in different tiers or multiple times in the same tier), this game would not be where it is today. Sorry but not everyone gets to go out and play with friends on a regular basis.

People talk about X-wing 2.0, but I can't imagine how tenuous a venture that would be. Are they going to re-release another X-wing model? Another Tie Fighter model? Are they going to release non-ship packs for those that already have been released? That's hard to imagine since they aren't doing it now and it would be a much more consumer friendly way of "fixing" ships.

This is another problem which some of us raise about the sales model. A number of games have made very successful transitions to second editions - Warmahordes and Malifaux being two I've experienced personally. Both for basically the same reason as X-wing, initial shortsightedness in the rules, balance issues, bloat, etc.

They did it by releasing new books and card packs. This was generally acceptable to people because books and card packs are not the expensive part of the game. But FFG can't just release card packs to update everything - card sales drive model sales, and if people didn't have to buy Lambdas to get Sensor Jammers any more, et al, then all that incentive goes away. They can't release card packs without demolishing their sales model for everything that has come before. The sales model paints them into a corner with no option to really go back and clean up the game.

Assuming they would care to anyway. They had a decent chance to make some real improvement with the new rules/damage deck, and have basically fumbled it, so I don't expect they really care.

Oddly, X-Wing has the opposite problem Warmachine and Malifaux had. Both of those games sold models with ever increasing complex rules that got too swingy to balance with new releases or by fixing old ones. They improved in their second edition by streamlining and simplifying; bringing everything closer to a median.

X-Wing, by contrast, has the problem of most things being kind of bland. There's just not a ton of design space available with the dice curve providing very few viable options for red and green stats and the health system being generally quite straight forward. Sadly, the most variable stat (PS) is completely binary in effect. Ships overlap in function and purpose very quickly and arguably they burned through the core game's design space in Wave 2.

Instead, what we've seen is a lot of work to complicate models. The Y-Wing and Defender becoming multi-shot platforms, models gaining unique ways to stack upgrades and actions, Bs and Bombers gaining support roles, and previous hard counters being softened to allow models to stand out in their niches better. The game has been working hard to take things like the Empire's 4-5 Interceptor variants and adding things to make each different enough to carve out their own niche in the game.

This is actually a very sensible fix, if you feel bad about supporting the game then play at home and proxy or wait until another ship comes along with the modification.

I'd say X-Wing is about halfway to a point where everything needs to be re-done, basically creating a new edition.

People talk about X-wing 2.0, but I can't imagine how tenuous a venture that would be. Are they going to re-release another X-wing model? Another Tie Fighter model? Are they going to release non-ship packs for those that already have been released? That's hard to imagine since they aren't doing it now and it would be a much more consumer friendly way of "fixing" ships.

We're already talking about people having more than enough of ships already released. One of the reasons I find so little value in the Gozanti is, while I have some mild interest in the TIE pilots and would like Agent Kallus, I don't need an 8th and 9th Tie (or maybe it would be 9th and 10th, I'm not sure).

Here's the thing, FFG has a messy ruleset with band-aids plastered over everything, and to be honest, there simply aren't going to be enough ships to sustain the games release schedule into the future.

X Wing is a VERY new kid on the block. It's been around, what, three years? And in that time we've already exhausted all the OT ships, all the (decent) EU ships and most of the TFA ships.

There is not another three years worth of ships to release. So what are they going to do in a year or two when there's no more ships to release, and all the existing players have all the ships they ever want to buy?

They will be trying to survive off new players. Old players won't be buying any more. But there won't be enough new players, especially when those prospective new players consider the state of the rules and realise they need to buy Starvipers to make their their TIE Interceptors and the Raider to make their Advanced work.

The obvious solution that kills two birds with one stone is to release X Wing 2.0. With adjusted points cost and a new tournament format (150 points would be my guess) that encourages old players to buy more ships to 'upgrade' their old squads to the new format, and a re-vamped rule set that balances everything and prevents the need for all the various fixes.

A 2.0 is inevitable. It's just a matter of when.

Basically, new players shouldn't and aren't expected to start with a 4 Tempest AC list.

Look, some ships needed fixes, and some still need them. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

What you're essentially saying is new players just have to suck it up and play with the crappy version of their ships.

I mean, you can have whatever opinion you want, but that's a bit harsh on new players.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but I just realized something.

I made this post:

Okay, it is official I have purchased far too many ships.

Please add your ships to the list.

This is from Board Game Geeks: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1502367/how-many-ships

I added the tables but the formatting messed up.

So decided to count my ships. Never a good idea. Wow I have 96 ships. Clearly I can see where I over purchased to have enough damages decks, asteroids etc... so let's knock that down to 90. But then I started looking at something else; the upgrades:

Most Wanted - Bomb Load out and others

Kihraxz - Crack Shot and Lighting Reflexes

M3A - Mangler and Flechette Cannons

StarVipers - Accuracy Corrector and Autothrusters

Each times 2 just for cards? Okay my bad; I didn't have to purchase two of each. But that is 6 extra ships plus 2 large packages.

That doesn't count the IG-2000 or Hound's Tooth (Lone Wolf upgrade)

Add to that:

4 extra interceptors - Aces

2 extra A-Wings - Aces

2 extra B-Wings - Aces

That also isn't considering the Raider (to fix the Advanced), CR-90 (C3PO) or other Epic ships. Me I like Epic so this get's a pass but for others.

Side Note: I have four large ships but even with that I don't have enough Optimized Generators or Automated Protocols for every ship in an Epic Game.

Soon there's the Veterans and we don't know what cards are even included for the supposed Rebels. But

If I buy 2 x Imperial Veterans this will give me

2 extra bombers

2 1 extra defenders (okay 3 isn't a bad number and I only have 2 now)

That is 17 extra small ships, again I didn't count everything, and just adding those up at MSRP is scary. Add to that the two larger packages etc...

No I'm not complaining (even if you think so) and no one forced me to buy this much. This is solely an observation and sharing what I've learned about my own purchases and collection. But this has been a learning experience regarding both how much money I've spent on the game and how much of that was for just a few cards.

Where I felt bad in the past about creating proxies this, to me at least, certainly helps justify it a bit. Do I still think proxies take away from the game experience? YEP. I sucks!!! Will I continue to purchase two to four of every expansion that comes out? Nope, that's done.

Don't mistake my intent. I'm not out of the game nor done with buying in. And maybe like some others I'll just buy one so I have the actual card; but looking at the actual numbers and how many ships I own that will never see play... it is something to consider and review my buying habits.

Just sayin'

Ive found Proxying isn't that bad, the on only cars ive proxyed are from the Raider, because its a $90 dollar epic ship. besides that, all the other expansions are just good enough to buy. don't buy for the cards, but get good expansions, and you will find the cards you are looking for.

Basically, new players shouldn't and aren't expected to start with a 4 Tempest AC list.

Look, some ships needed fixes, and some still need them. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

What you're essentially saying is new players just have to suck it up and play with the crappy version of their ships.

I mean, you can have whatever opinion you want, but that's a bit harsh on new players.

I don't see it that way. I'm not disagreeing that some ships, particularly from the early waves, have been overshadowed by newer ships thanks to more experienced game design and points calculations. What I'm saying is that until a new player (assuming the player is part of the larger population that doesn't read message boards) has played a number of games and really learned the game, they won't know the brand new ship they just bought is crappy. They'll play with it, have fun, and be happy. From that point of view, claiming that it's necessary to buy a Raider to play with even one TIE Advanced is untrue.

I think it's far more harsh to tell new players that they need to buy a separate $90 expansion to be able to play their $15 expansion at all.

i think theyll get into repaints and variant sculpts and stuff at some point. by think i mean hope. by hope i mean i really really want poes t70 with a little bb8 sticking out the top

edit: and these would come with like, titles and different upgrades and angry r2d2 guy will throw even more of a fit because now hes being forced to buy the same ship he already owns or whatever, while everyone else is happy they have like, the a wing from rebels, or x wings with the wings shut and a cool title for doing that in combat to speed up (like a juno eclipse thing but only speeding up, but you cant do it on hard turns or something idk) or more squadron marking tie fighters without having to do aces packs

We're already talking about people having more than enough of ships already released. One of the reasons I find so little value in the Gozanti is, while I have some mild interest in the TIE pilots and would like Agent Kallus, I don't need an 8th and 9th Tie (or maybe it would be 9th and 10th, I'm not sure).

I'm in a similar situation. As much as I'd be happy to have Callus, the extra TIE pilots and TIE models (they would only be my 4th and 5th TIE/LN), I've no interest in the Gozanti at all given I don't play epic. Same applies to the Raider; I've two TIE Advanceds that would love to have the fix but I'm not forking out $120ish for a huge ship I'll never use just to get them.

I'll stalk eBay and other sellers until I find the pilot and title cards. But approx $230 for the two huge ships - which I may/may not be able to pawn on off to get some of the money back - just make it a no brainer at the moment.

What I'm saying is that until a new player (assuming the player is part of the larger population that doesn't read message boards) has played a number of games and really learned the game, they won't know the brand new ship they just bought is crappy. They'll play with it, have fun, and be happy. From that point of view, claiming that it's necessary to buy a Raider to play with even one TIE Advanced is untrue.

I think it's far more harsh to tell new players that they need to buy a separate $90 expansion to be able to play their $15 expansion at all.

This ignores two things. First, it's often not all that hard to figure out what's good and what's not. Sure, there have been some cases where first looks got reversed, but on the whole most first impressions have been correct. Second, it ignores the actual games new players can have. If a new player with his awesome TIE Advanced pack Darth Vader comes up against someone helping him play and runs into a newly tricked-out Raider-boosted Vader, the experience is going to be VERY enlightening as to what they do and don't need in order to fly that ship.

What I'm saying is that until a new player (assuming the player is part of the larger population that doesn't read message boards) has played a number of games and really learned the game, they won't know the brand new ship they just bought is crappy. They'll play with it, have fun, and be happy. From that point of view, claiming that it's necessary to buy a Raider to play with even one TIE Advanced is untrue.

I think it's far more harsh to tell new players that they need to buy a separate $90 expansion to be able to play their $15 expansion at all.

This ignores two things. First, it's often not all that hard to figure out what's good and what's not. Sure, there have been some cases where first looks got reversed, but on the whole most first impressions have been correct. Second, it ignores the actual games new players can have. If a new player with his awesome TIE Advanced pack Darth Vader comes up against someone helping him play and runs into a newly tricked-out Raider-boosted Vader, the experience is going to be VERY enlightening as to what they do and don't need in order to fly that ship.

Absolutely, it's possible the player could have a really lopsided game. It's happened to me plenty enough in several different game systems. My first encounter with a TLT Kavil soured me on TLTs right off the bat. Until I put a proton rocket up his tailpipe. Still don't like TLTs, though. At least on my opponent's ships. Anyway, for this whole losing faith discussion I'm trying to go for a more average type of experience here (or what I guess it might be) rather than the full-on forum/tournament/meta/hardcore (pick your poison) veteran's point of view.

I started this game two years ago when I saw a core set at Target for $12. Got my friends together and played it, then we all went out and got more core sets at $12 and haven't looked back. Never played a game in a store until a couple of months ago, and even after that I still don't feel pressured to buy ships for cards. Not an Autothruster to be found in my folio: don't care for the space butterfly. Xizor, who's that? It's only if I want to go beyond leagues and store championships that there might be pressure to buy ships for cards, but that's a barrier to higher level competitive play, not the game itself. Wasn't there a thread somewhere about the cost of top-tier squads from worlds? The costs were pretty reasonable, I thought.

I started this game two years ago when I saw a core set at Target for $12. Got my friends together and played it, then we all went out and got more core sets at $12 and haven't looked back. Never played a game in a store until a couple of months ago, and even after that I still don't feel pressured to buy ships for cards. Not an Autothruster to be found in my folio: don't care for the space butterfly. Xizor, who's that? It's only if I want to go beyond leagues and store championships that there might be pressure to buy ships for cards, but that's a barrier to higher level competitive play, not the game itself. Wasn't there a thread somewhere about the cost of top-tier squads from worlds? The costs were pretty reasonable, I thought.

Paul Heaver's list was almost $300, and only 20% of that was the ships that he actually used. "Reasonable" can be pretty subjective. It's ironic that the CCG/LCG discussion defended FFG's business model by pointing out how awful the card price could get on CCGs, but the cards in Paul's winning list averaged around $30 each.

Someone made a point above that a lot of the perception difference in this issue can come from an individual's background in other games. It sounds like you're a pretty casual gamer who stumbled across a new game in Target and, (not to be insulting about it) lived largely in ignorance. But that's by no means standard, and one doesn't have to be a "forum/tournament/meta/hardcore veteran" to realize issues very quickly. Many people will read game reviews before buying. You know what the first one I saw was? Commented that the game came down to numbers, dominated by how many ships you could put on the board. That view was surprisingly accurate until very recently, and came out within a few weeks.

But regardless of when or how a player makes that discovery, I'm pretty uncomfortable with the entire premise here. "The sales model is fine because players won't know enough to realize how bad it sucks" feels very wrong to me. If nothing else, it's a lot like Sithborg's used car salesman suggestion above - if a you're introducing a player and that player remains in ignorance it's because you're choosing to keep them that way.

My goal whenever I introduce a new player to the game is to help them like the game by making an informed decision. If the game only appears good when you hide the painful bits, that's the game's problem.

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

I just think it's terrible that the K-Wing came with two TLTs, the Star Viper came with two Autothrusters, but the TIE Inquisitor includes just one Guidance Chip. Lame.

The K-wing and StarViper were both larger, more expensive ships. The Punishing One, which is also a larger, more expensive ship, will also come with two copies (check the card fan in the preview article).