Eh... the CR-90 is currently the most unattractive package of any Huge Ship. 4 Unique crew - 2 of which are playable; 3 unique ship upgrades that are not restricted to this ship.... Maybe it could see a re-package in the future.

I've outgrown the whole random thing - nowadays if I want randomness I'd rather buy lottery.

Unattractive packages?

Tactician in Phantom.

Phantom.

Even dedicated empire players rarely bought 2!

I bought 4 in an ex player's package... I did think it was extreme - My Imps ships were all sold to friends. I'm considering buying more Phantoms if I ever need the cards

On the other hand, the secondary market attracts those who I wouldn't like to have in the game. I do understand that trading helps lower the cost of the game. I'm just glad I never have to deal with random stuff again.

I'm certainly not saying I'd prefer random - I have completely and utterly sworn off random packaging. I just think FFG has discovered a model which manages to make players buy almost as much (if not more) unnecessary stuff, and managed to convince the players that they've done them a huge favor for it.

I can tell you that i used to play Legend of the 5 Rings when it was a CCG from AEG, and when i compare what i had to spend to get some of the rare and even uncommon cards i desperately needed on the secondary market in order to play a bit more competitively, it was just disgusting.

Then there was a cycle system with complicated lists where some cards would get banned for a few years just to come back thereafter. If you threw any of those away because you thought not needing them anymore... bad idea!

I will never again play a CCG!

When i consider what you have to spend to get all the possible cards in playsets for an LCG like Netrunner or Warhammer Conquest, that's much more affordable than what you play for certain playsets of Magic, Yugi-Oh or back then, L5R cards!

I am so happy that FFG will re-release L5R as a LCG. I loved the game, but was disgusted by the business that was the secondary market. Which was why i stopped playing it.

On the other hand, the secondary market attracts those who I wouldn't like to have in the game. I do understand that trading helps lower the cost of the game. I'm just glad I never have to deal with random stuff again.

I'm certainly not saying I'd prefer random - I have completely and utterly sworn off random packaging. I just think FFG has discovered a model which manages to make players buy almost as much (if not more) unnecessary stuff, and managed to convince the players that they've done them a huge favor for it.

I can tell you that i used to play Legend of the 5 Rings when it was a CCG from AEG, and when i compare what i had to spend to get some of the rare and even uncommon cards i desperately needed on the secondary market in order to play a bit more competitively, it was just disgusting.

Then there was a cycle system with complicated lists where some cards would get banned for a few years just to come back thereafter. If you threw any of those away because you thought not needing them anymore... bad idea!

I will never again play a CCG!

When i consider what you have to spend to get all the possible cards in playsets for an LCG like Netrunner or Warhammer Conquest, that's much more affordable than what you play for certain playsets of Magic, Yugi-Oh or back then, L5R cards!

I am so happy that FFG will re-release L5R as a LCG. I loved the game, but was disgusted by the business that was the secondary market. Which was why i stopped playing it.

Yeah pretty much stopped L5R too - WotC playing around with its rarity distribution killed it for a while, after it's revival could just never get back into it again.

I will finish with a funny story, a friend of mine wanted to get into X wing last year, he was a massive fan of Rebels and wanted to enter some competions with us. He had heard from us and the interweb that C3P0 was the go to card for any serious falcon player. He wanted the card so he asked me how to get it, so I told him..........several days later I received this message

" Remember when you told me I had to buy the Rebal Transport for C3P0, which I Did"

"Yes, Enjoy and you are welcome" I replied

" Thanks for that but it comes with the Tantive"

Oh Balls!

Wait till he finds out that an alternative art C-3PO is the card for this years Store Championship packs....

The ones that want to spam LRS lists are probably using Z-95s.

Considering Long Range Scanners require BOTH Torpedo and Missile slots in your upgrade bar, I somehow doubt that will be the case.

TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers, Firesprays with Slave-1, K-Wings... so yeah, mostly Imperial ships.

I keep forgetting that every time I get reminded!

On the other hand, the secondary market attracts those who I wouldn't like to have in the game. I do understand that trading helps lower the cost of the game. I'm just glad I never have to deal with random stuff again.

I'm certainly not saying I'd prefer random - I have completely and utterly sworn off random packaging. I just think FFG has discovered a model which manages to make players buy almost as much (if not more) unnecessary stuff, and managed to convince the players that they've done them a huge favor for it.

I can tell you that i used to play Legend of the 5 Rings when it was a CCG from AEG, and when i compare what i had to spend to get some of the rare and even uncommon cards i desperately needed on the secondary market in order to play a bit more competitively, it was just disgusting.

Then there was a cycle system with complicated lists where some cards would get banned for a few years just to come back thereafter. If you threw any of those away because you thought not needing them anymore... bad idea!

I will never again play a CCG!

When i consider what you have to spend to get all the possible cards in playsets for an LCG like Netrunner or Warhammer Conquest, that's much more affordable than what you play for certain playsets of Magic, Yugi-Oh or back then, L5R cards!

I am so happy that FFG will re-release L5R as a LCG. I loved the game, but was disgusted by the business that was the secondary market. Which was why i stopped playing it.

What's "a bit more competitively"? Like, running around on a pro tour? Trying to win a local FNM? Semi-serious events? Only tryhards bring Tier 1 decks to our local FNM, and that still ends up being a complete waste. If you're not out there pounding the ground and working the circuit, spending lots of money for wins is a complete waste. There's plenty of fun to be had on a budget.

There are a lot of factors involved, but with the widest possible exposure everybody ultimately ends up winning with a CCG model. It's only when you have a much smaller exposure to the game that the secondary market becomes strained, prices become inflated, and the game ends up stagnating. Maybe that's not in the cards (pardon the pun) for FFG, but the LCG model has its own drawbacks. What happens when you mix non-randomized distribution with phasing sets? Planned obsolescence. Magic has several eternal formats, so all of the cards that I've collected over the years continue to be playable and maintain some, all, or an increasing amount of their original value. Look at how much out-of-print packs sell for compared to in-print MSRP, which is ~$4. When Netrunner starts phasing out cards, what will people do with the $15 packs that they bought? I think that's the current question that a lot of people are asking right now, and has them more than a little vexed from what I hear.

---

And just so you know, the problem with exposure affects Magic as well. Occasionally a set will be poorly received, and if that set also happens to be a small one (set size is generally either ~180 cards or ~260) then the number of packs opened will likewise be relatively small. The problem is compounded when one or two of the cards in that set are actually good; their price will rise dramatically, especially as that set stops being printed and rotates into eternal formats. The inverse, of course, is also true. Sets that sell well and are well designed often have the value of individual cards distributed more evenly. And then you have scenarios in between, like the most recent set. Despite being a well designed set, and selling extremely well (mostly due to lottery cards being added to the pool), it's largely been overshadowed by the previous block since release. Only the lands and one or two other cards have seen serious competitive play, so the majority of the set's value currently rests on their shoulders alone. Now, I expect that trend to correct itself once the previous block rotates, but that's some months away.

TL;DR - There are a lot of factors that affect card price, so there's no good reason to dismiss the random distribution model based on $$ alone. The bigger / better the game, the more negligible whatever the perceived drawbacks of CCGs might be.

I will finish with a funny story, a friend of mine wanted to get into X wing last year, he was a massive fan of Rebels and wanted to enter some competions with us. He had heard from us and the interweb that C3P0 was the go to card for any serious falcon player. He wanted the card so he asked me how to get it, so I told him..........several days later I received this message

" Remember when you told me I had to buy the Rebal Transport for C3P0, which I Did"

"Yes, Enjoy and you are welcome" I replied

" Thanks for that but it comes with the Tantive"

Oh Balls!

Wait till he finds out that an alternative art C-3PO is the card for this years Store Championship packs....

you sure? it's gunner card as far as I know

I will finish with a funny story, a friend of mine wanted to get into X wing last year, he was a massive fan of Rebels and wanted to enter some competions with us. He had heard from us and the interweb that C3P0 was the go to card for any serious falcon player. He wanted the card so he asked me how to get it, so I told him..........several days later I received this message

" Remember when you told me I had to buy the Rebal Transport for C3P0, which I Did"

"Yes, Enjoy and you are welcome" I replied

" Thanks for that but it comes with the Tantive"

Oh Balls!

Wait till he finds out that an alternative art C-3PO is the card for this years Store Championship packs....

He already knows - that was a pretty funny moment too. LOL

Almost as funny as trying to explain how to do a Tallon Roll...

On the other hand, the secondary market attracts those who I wouldn't like to have in the game. I do understand that trading helps lower the cost of the game. I'm just glad I never have to deal with random stuff again.

I'm certainly not saying I'd prefer random - I have completely and utterly sworn off random packaging. I just think FFG has discovered a model which manages to make players buy almost as much (if not more) unnecessary stuff, and managed to convince the players that they've done them a huge favor for it.

I can tell you that i used to play Legend of the 5 Rings when it was a CCG from AEG, and when i compare what i had to spend to get some of the rare and even uncommon cards i desperately needed on the secondary market in order to play a bit more competitively, it was just disgusting.

Then there was a cycle system with complicated lists where some cards would get banned for a few years just to come back thereafter. If you threw any of those away because you thought not needing them anymore... bad idea!

I will never again play a CCG!

When i consider what you have to spend to get all the possible cards in playsets for an LCG like Netrunner or Warhammer Conquest, that's much more affordable than what you play for certain playsets of Magic, Yugi-Oh or back then, L5R cards!

I am so happy that FFG will re-release L5R as a LCG. I loved the game, but was disgusted by the business that was the secondary market. Which was why i stopped playing it.

What's "a bit more competitively"? Like, running around on a pro tour? Trying to win a local FNM? Semi-serious events? Only tryhards bring Tier 1 decks to our local FNM, and that still ends up being a complete waste. If you're not out there pounding the ground and working the circuit, spending lots of money for wins is a complete waste. There's plenty of fun to be had on a budget.

There are a lot of factors involved, but with the widest possible exposure everybody ultimately ends up winning with a CCG model. It's only when you have a much smaller exposure to the game that the secondary market becomes strained, prices become inflated, and the game ends up stagnating. Maybe that's not in the cards (pardon the pun) for FFG, but the LCG model has its own drawbacks. What happens when you mix non-randomized distribution with phasing sets? Planned obsolescence. Magic has several eternal formats, so all of the cards that I've collected over the years continue to be playable and maintain some, all, or an increasing amount of their original value. Look at how much out-of-print packs sell for compared to in-print MSRP, which is ~$4. When Netrunner starts phasing out cards, what will people do with the $15 packs that they bought? I think that's the current question that a lot of people are asking right now, and has them more than a little vexed from what I hear.

---

And just so you know, the problem with exposure affects Magic as well. Occasionally a set will be poorly received, and if that set also happens to be a small one (set size is generally either ~180 cards or ~260) then the number of packs opened will likewise be relatively small. The problem is compounded when one or two of the cards in that set are actually good; their price will rise dramatically, especially as that set stops being printed and rotates into eternal formats. The inverse, of course, is also true. Sets that sell well and are well designed often have the value of individual cards distributed more evenly. And then you have scenarios in between, like the most recent set. Despite being a well designed set, and selling extremely well (mostly due to lottery cards being added to the pool), it's largely been overshadowed by the previous block since release. Only the lands and one or two other cards have seen serious competitive play, so the majority of the set's value currently rests on their shoulders alone. Now, I expect that trend to correct itself once the previous block rotates, but that's some months away.

TL;DR - There are a lot of factors that affect card price, so there's no good reason to dismiss the random distribution model based on $$ alone. The bigger / better the game, the more negligible whatever the perceived drawbacks of CCGs might be.

I played on several regional Tournaments in Europe. Kotais in France, Belgium, Germany, and our local Ruby champion tournament that doesn't exist anymore either afaik.

Yes maybe LCGs have some problems too, but there is just no way you're going to tell me that people playing a CCG seriously (and i am afraid that does mean buying cards on the secondary market for money because you will lack lots of useful cards) will spend less money than on an LCG. For certain rares in CCGs you need to spend as much money as you would need for a year of buying every booster and starter in an LCG you will need to have every card in existence.

Assuming all other things are equal, I expect a well-designed* CCG will at least do a better job of satisfying a larger player base, regardless of the cost. Everything is not equal, however, and I don't expect any other manufacturer to live up to Magic's standard, not even FFG. The most important question you have to ask yourself is this: do you get what you pay for? If you spend more money to be 'competitive,' and the result is that you enjoy yourself more, is that a fair trade off for a game that costs less but maybe isn't so robust in terms of balance and rules support? And by the same token, just how many bandaids are you willing to put up with before that $15 LCG expansion becomes more burden than boon?

*When I say that 'everybody wins with a CCG,' the expectation is that the game is well-designed. A bad game is a bad game, regardless of distribution model.

When i consider what you have to spend to get all the possible cards in playsets for an LCG like Netrunner or Warhammer Conquest, that's much more affordable than what you play for certain playsets of Magic, Yugi-Oh or back then, L5R cards!

This can really depend. My current favorite LOTR deck comes from two core sets and 14 different expansions, two of which are large expansions. That's a price tag of over $300. And that's not for a particularly competitive deck, as there really isn't any such thing for LOTR. It's just that the deck I was putting together (Gondor) has its theme run through most releases, at least a little bit.

And that highlights the problem with the LCG model. They may be cheaper for full, completionist playsets, but more limited play can prove VERY expensive. Every pack is $15, and that's what you pay to get the cards in them, even if you only want one. My heroes come from three different expansions, so that's $45 just to start. Considering that half the cards are scenario cards that you may or may not need, depending on your play group (yay bundling!) the LCG model can easily leave you looking at $5-$15 for EVERY CARD in your deck. And because of the LCG model, there's very little in the way of a secondary market.

Now, this isn't too bad for me (as long as I don't do the math often) - I started relatively early, and the $15 a month is easy enough to keep up with. But as I mentioned, I've got a friend who's currently using my card set. He doesn't like mooching, and wants to get his own. But the price tag for what he considers playing - again, mostly fun/theme decks with no real competitive curve - runs over $200. That's a SERIOUSLY daunting investment for one deck, even by Magic standards. And this is exactly what the model is designed to do - you play in a group that already has scenarios? Too bad, you're buying those cards too. You play two spheres (factions)? Too bad, you're going to get cards for all four. So a new player who really likes the game and wants to buy in doesn't, because the initial cost is pretty ludicrous. Want to build a deck with as few expansions as possible? Good luck with that, because each sphere gets 2 new cards in each pack. So unless you play heavily from the core (which is difficult with where the game is) you're looking at a MINIMUM purchase of 6 scenario packs ($90) just to get enough cards to make a two-sphere deck - never mind whether those work together at all!

The LCG model sounds great on paper, especially to players who are tired of chasing the random. But the actual experience of it is pretty awful. The one thing it does really well is spread out the pain, which IMHO is why people endure it as well as they do. $15 a month doesn't feel bad, and you're fine as long as you keep up with it, and it's not really anything that affects you. Same for X-wing. But then you turn around and say "Heaver's list cost HOW MUCH?" and all of a sudden the self-congratulation over how cheap X-wing is to play doesn't feel quite so true any more.

All i can see is that i spend less money for a game that i have a complete set of, and where i don't need to buy either tons of boosters just to get the cards i need. Which is horribly inefficient by the way. I threw a crapton of common and uncommon cards just away because i had some 35 copies of them while still lacking a lot of rares. Exchanging cards was not working well either because of card rarity issues. So the other option is just buying boosters for basic cards and buying the rest for money.

I will tell you what i think of that. It's just a totally player unfriendly selling method, much more so than LCG.

Of course Magic is still unsurpassed in success. What i don't know is if there are still a lot of young players coming into the Magic scene or if it's a lot of the same guys years after year. But it seems like a healthy game and i don't see it going away. But other CCGs... I don't see any of them that would be better in quality than current LCGs.

What i cannot see is a lack of support or balancing in the LCGs either, and certainly not because they are not CCGs. It depends strongly on who makes them, but if i look at FFG's games there are no major issues with them, they work and are regularly supported and balanced. So where is the issue with that?

I don't have the feeling with FFG (unlike with GW) that an evil Empire is trying to drain my wallet ever harder for minimum effort. In fact this hobby is not cheap, but for me the products are totally worth it because the game gets more and more awesome at the moment.

Are you suuuurrrrre???????

Isn't Fantasy Flight one of the largest dealers of plastic crack.

How long before addictions like this get investigated by the CDC.

Just kidding, but I am considering joining MA (Miniatures Anonymous). The GA (Gamers Anonymous) was already full so I'm on the waiting list there.

Okay just kidding again.

All i can see is that i spend less money for a game that i have a complete set of, and where i don't need to buy either tons of boosters just to get the cards i need.

I know you know, but for the record Collectible Card Game (CCG) and Living Card Game (LCG) aren't the only business models out there.

But if I have to chose, and I have, I will never get into another CCG. The idea of buying a package of random components and simply hoping for a decent card/unit/etc. is something I've gotten out of. I've done it, played a few and think with my style of play and collecting it has zero value for me. That isn't to say many don't enjoy it. I do not. It's right up there with painting. I love it, I simply can't.

However LCG, while being much better, let's you know what you are buying but still gnaws a little for having to buy expansions just for a few pennies worth of cards.

Buying in to an LCG to only play an maintain one deck is needlessly applying a CCG necessity to a different circumstance. In an LCG buying one deck is buying all decks, so build and utilize those other decks. In most cases you can have them built without any comprise to you preferred archetype. Why would you ever just play one deck without the monetary necessity of doing so that a CCG creates.

I think a good idea might be to release $10 card packs like:

EPTs - 1 of each

Modifications - 1 of each

Ordnance - 1 of each + templates and amrkers (this would probably be more expensive)

This would help new players by giving them all the options easily, while still needing to buy several packs for duplicates.

that's a SHITTON OF CARDS for literally nothing >_>

unlikely.

the business model says "want ship? get some cards. want some card? buy a ship"

and it isn't that bad

and it isn't that bad

Let's face it... There's only so many ways to sell a game like X-Wing, or a card game LCG or CCG...

Every model is going to have some drawbacks because we as consumers qutie naturally want the best possible deal we can get, and the company wants to charge us the most they can. It's the natural tension between seller and buyer.

So the only question that really matters and is likely to be my last post on this or other marketing type topics is this.

If you feel you're getting your money's worth in what you buy, then you really have no place to complain. Sure it could be better, but if you're getting fair value then that's the most anyone can reasonably expect.

FFG's system has good things and bad things, so does GW, FoW, Warmahordes and MtG. If you feel the good is greater than the bad, then have fun. If you don't then perhaps you should find something else to do. This isn't a love it or leave it statement, just that you will accomplish very little complaining about something when the company is making a ton of money. If they're doing that they have very little reason to change.

I've met very few Magic players who actually spend what a deck "costs". After all, a draft costs at least $12 on its own and most of the time the serious players will pick up a box or two of each new set throughout the year. Waiting to find out what's a championship quality deck leaves you behind the curve, buying cards the meta is shifting against at peak cost after all.

What surprises me most about the LCG model is just that it stays in the reprint cycle rather than shift old releases to an anthology format. I suspect it would work better if at the end of the next cycle (or next next) the packs went out of print and were instead sold as a 5 pack bundle for say, $60? there would be as much of a catchup issue. I'd actually like to see faction starters work that way in this game.

Something my friends and I always do when things come bundled (GW's various starter sets for 40k for example) is split them. X-wing core set (before we each grabbed another one for $12 each at Target), Armada core set, most recently Rebel Aces. It sounds like the LCG format is actually ideal for this. Get 4 friends together, each buy a different pack, and trade factions. You end up with a single-faction pack for exactly the purchase price of a regular pack. No chasing, no secondary market, no collections of useless cards. Or split the cost. In either case you get only the cards you want, none you don't.

If you can't get 3 other friends, or gaming buddies, or peeps at the FLGS to split a pack with... then who exactly are you playing the game with in the first place? There are even trade threads on these very boards as a kind of last resort. You could do the same with X-wing, though it might be a bit harder but not impossible.

If you can't get 3 other friends, or gaming buddies, or peeps at the FLGS to split a pack with... then who exactly are you playing the game with in the first place?

Not everyone follows the same gaming-friend model.

For the most part, the guys I game with all collect for things they are interested in. A game is thrown by one or two people that collect that particular thing and everyone else shows up to play.

It is a given: if you want to collect and play a particular game or period, you collect both sides and then host everyone else.

This means everyone is happy collecting what they want, everyone is happy playing games with each other.

It's been a very long time since I only collected one side of anything. I wouldn't actually want to go back to that.

If you can't get 3 other friends, or gaming buddies, or peeps at the FLGS to split a pack with... then who exactly are you playing the game with in the first place?

Not everyone follows the same gaming-friend model.

For the most part, the guys I game with all collect for things they are interested in. A game is thrown by one or two people that collect that particular thing and everyone else shows up to play.

It is a given: if you want to collect and play a particular game or period, you collect both sides and then host everyone else.

This means everyone is happy collecting what they want, everyone is happy playing games with each other.

It's been a very long time since I only collected one side of anything. I wouldn't actually want to go back to that.

In which case you need everything for at least two players anyway in the games you collect, so the LCG model isn't a detriment. I was merely addressing when a person only wants to collect a single faction from a multi-faction deck. Presumably they won't be following your group's methods. We generally all buy into whatever game we're currently interested in, but we also individually buy games to share with the others. One friend got Tannhauser and Space Hulk for example, I'm the sole supplier of Armada games, another is trying to bring Battletech back, I tried getting Heavy Gear started. It's pretty easy with board games like Fortress America (which I see FFG resurrected) and Risk of Many Flavors, Axis and Allies, etc. Generally, we've found that unless we all buy in, we just don't play often enough to have all these other games to cycle through. I'm actually kinda envious that you seem able to play so many games.

Note before I start: Yes I agree as some say that we do not have a right to complain and whining is just annoying. But within the rules and common courtesy we can share our opinion in these and other forums. Some proxy and don't like doing so; they (me) say 'I do it but I don't like it'. If I cross the line into whining let me know. I have been known to soap box and I'll happy to give others a turn

________________________________________________________________________________

Moving on:

In which case you need everything for at least two players anyway in the games you collect, so the LCG model isn't a detriment.

Umm, I can disagree with that. I wanted to and have collected enough for 2-4 players to play a 400 point Epic game. That's a lot of stuff at least for me it is. I like the Rebellion and Empire sides so I'd like to collect those. But I still have to buy S&V so the Imperial Interceptors survive closing the range on a 6' playing surface.

Also, and just sayin', as I have collected most things every expansion I have 1 of each of the 4 Epic/Cinematic/Huge Ships. I love them but if I want to use Optimized Generators or Automated Protocols on all four ships (Raider, CR-90, Carrier and Transport) I need to buy a second Gozanti Assault Carrier.

Consider that even if I buy 1 Huge, 1 large and 2 to 4 of every small Rebel and Imperial ship (which I have) I still end up not having enough cards unless I over buy and buy ships outside those factions which may never see table time. Again just sayin'

[Edit] P.S. I actually have more than 4 TIE L/N and Interceptors

that's a SHITTON OF CARDS for literally nothing >_>

unlikely.

the business model says "want ship? get some cards. want some card? buy a ship"

and it isn't that bad

Whatever, it was just an idea. Basically, release a product that people would be willing to buy without feeling bad about it (for example, I know several people, myself included, that refuse to buy Starvipers just for the Autothrusters).

Ken, I did mention it's harder with X-Wing than with LCGs...

But yes, higher card counts of some key upgrades would be very welcome in X-Wing, particularly the huge ships. I just got the T-70 and TIE/fo xpacks recently and was a little disappointed in how few cards came in the pack. I know it's no different than before, but it seems so little now.

Costi - I feel the same about the space butterfly.

I've met very few Magic players who actually spend what a deck "costs". After all, a draft costs at least $12 on its own and most of the time the serious players will pick up a box or two of each new set throughout the year. Waiting to find out what's a championship quality deck leaves you behind the curve, buying cards the meta is shifting against at peak cost after all.

What surprises me most about the LCG model is just that it stays in the reprint cycle rather than shift old releases to an anthology format. I suspect it would work better if at the end of the next cycle (or next next) the packs went out of print and were instead sold as a 5 pack bundle for say, $60? there would be as much of a catchup issue. I'd actually like to see faction starters work that way in this game.

That won't work quite as well as you think, since packs go out of stock at different times. I think they have moved to a better system to allow them to reprint packs at a time, rather than wait to do a whole reprint of the cycle.

I do think that once rotation starts, that the rotated cycles will move to print on demand, much like Call of Cthullu is moving to, since that is a "complete" game.