This is fixed? Two cards that both take up the Mod slot (so you can't run them both and you can't run either with any of a host of other popular upgrades), one of which is only equippable on what, four ships (Bomber, Punisher, K-Wing, and Slave I Firespray by my count)?
Dropping "discard" from Ordinance. Would that make it worth it?
Never ending ordinance would not be balanced for most ordinance.
The issue isn't discarding the card.
Its requiring the use of the target lock or focus to even use the card to start with.
They basically "Fixed" this issue for bombers and no other ships. Bombers have a throw away torpedo slot that can be used for the fix card. I find it incredibly stupid they did not simply fix all the ships at once instead of how they did this "Fix".
Torpedoes are still useless in fact the only real use for a torpedo slot is for a bomber to use it to fix the other ordinance slots.
But few people are flying bombers much... even with the fix. Maybe its easier to use old lists you know. I need to give the "Fixed" bomber sets a chance just haven't had time lately.
This is fixed? Two cards that both take up the Mod slot (so you can't run them both and you can't run either with any of a host of other popular upgrades), one of which is only equippable on what, four ships (Bomber, Punisher, K-Wing, and Slave I Firespray by my count)?
Guidance Chips is the fix. The ships that rely on munitions will gladly take that over any other mod.
Long Range Scanners is a niche upgrade that could find a home in some lists. It really has no business coming in Imperial Aces and taking up 2 upgrade cards in the pack.
I think unlimited reloads is a terrible idea. Look at modern aircraft....... modern fighters like the F-16 and F/A-18 operate well as fighters with the proper loadout and operate well as strike bombers with the proper loadout. Yet the respective loadout makes them pretty mediocre in the other role. In the x-wing "specs" that came out with the original trilogy, protorps were expensive and x-wings had limited room for them. Making ordnance's "punch" more reliable would probably be a better, more realistic fix than making it unlimited. As it is, ordnance like torps and missiles can add quite a bit of pepper to an alpha strike, and bombs, while harder to use effectively, can be devastating in the hands of an accomplished demolition artist.
One thing that's always fascinated me, though, is Gen. Dodonna's line in the movie, "The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes." It would be interesting if a huge ship carried a "ray-shielded" mod that made certain parts of it only vulnerable to ordnance, or perhaps requiring an ordnance hit to "crack the shell".
Edited by ThirdStormtrooperOnTheLeftI would sooner remove the 'Discard your target lock' requirement on all ordnance. You already have to be in range if the enemy and telegraph your attack of a 1 shot weapon. At least leave the ability to modify it.
The general vibe I'm feeling regarding some the the new ordinance upgrades is that although its an improvement, many feel that its still not enough to make ordinance make a strong appearance in the game.
Is it? Because I've had tons of fun coming up with new ordnance-based lists. Has anyone actually played with the new cards and found that they don't fix ordnance? Or is it just the usual group of internet nay-sayers who take out their frustrations on other peoples' fun?
The general vibe I'm feeling regarding some the the new ordinance upgrades is that although its an improvement, many feel that its still not enough to make ordinance make a strong appearance in the game.
Is it? Because I've had tons of fun coming up with new ordnance-based lists. Has anyone actually played with the new cards and found that they don't fix ordnance? Or is it just the usual group of internet nay-sayers who take out their frustrations on other peoples' fun?
The most vocal minority will never be happy.
I'd disagree that it's been "fixed" but it has been substantially improved.
Missiles, torps and bombs that don't run out is just about as broken as one shot ones. The currrent batch of missiles, torps and bombs were designed to be one shot - making them unlimited would be firstly be too OP, secondly unrealistic even for a fantasy sci-fi like Star Wars.
I can think of many occasions in the Original Trilogy alone where fighters on both sides are seen firing multiple torpedoes or dropping more than one bomb in a single encounter. I am also pretty sure that in every single star wars video game I have ever played, I got more than one torpedo/missile shot in a single mission too. Heck, Poe in the latest movie fires at least 50 points worth of Proton Torpedoes from his X-Wing alone! 
The general vibe I'm feeling regarding some the the new ordinance upgrades is that although its an improvement, many feel that its still not enough to make ordinance make a strong appearance in the game.
Is it? Because I've had tons of fun coming up with new ordnance-based lists. Has anyone actually played with the new cards and found that they don't fix ordnance? Or is it just the usual group of internet nay-sayers who take out their frustrations on other peoples' fun?
I'm glad you're enjoying making ordinance based lists. I also like finding creative uses for ordinance. I personally am hoping the incoming upgrades make ordinance worth taking more often. I guess we're just going to have to wait and see.
Edited by ZogwortI would sooner remove the 'Discard your target lock' requirement on all ordnance. You already have to be in range if the enemy and telegraph your attack of a 1 shot weapon. At least leave the ability to modify it.
"Luke. You've turned off your targeting computer."
and/or make the increase in reliability contingent on target lock, with ordnance operating the way it does now w/o the lock
In an effort to improve TIE bomber's flight time significantly prior to the extra munitions/imp vets fixes, I made a house rule similar to normal real-life combat situations, where a ship may return to its initial R1 deploy zone and either replenish its missiles/torps/bombs OR restore 1 hull. If it's the only ship remaining, doing so will be considered as fleeing and the opposition wins by default. On the other hand, if this last ship went to the deploy zone deliberately for tactical maneuver purposes, the player can declare not using the replenish feature to continue the fight.
Edited by Grivoire"Realistic" depiction of missiles and torps are almost impossible - a torp is an anti capital ship weapon - if a small or large ship takes one its very likely to be completely destroyed. Anti-starship missiles are not much better especially when used on a small ship. The bomb mechanic is strange in this game as well - more like anti pursuit weapons capital killers; or are mines.
But X-Wing is an abstract game - as long as its mechanicallly useful within the game it fine for me.
Has anyone ever tried just giving ships the secondary weapons they should have in the first place for free? Does it horribly unbalance the game?
It's always annoyed me.
It's like playing a WWII game, and suddenly discovering that you can't shoot the enemy, because you couldn't afford to buy a cannon for the turret of your Sherman tank. Or that you get overrun by infantry because you couldn't afford to have a gunner with a machine gun in your Tiger Tank.
Do any ships take off without torpedoes or cannons attached? Shouldn't these ships have all the bits and bobs on them for free to start with? (and have higher costs to reflect this if needed). It has always seemed odd that the default state of a B-wing is a stripped down shell without canon or torpedoes. They don't fly about like that in the movies, so why create a game where they fly about like that?
This certainly has merit in a few circumstances, and you mentioned one: B-Wings.
I don't know about you guys/girls/etc, but i see more B-Wings being flown naked as space superiority fighters than anything else. B-Wings were heavy assault fighter-bombers that attacked capital ships. They were too slow and not agile enough to dogfight with fighters, yet... that's exactly what they do in X-Wing. This is for a number of reasons: One is that their naked jousting efficiency is really, really high. Their statline makes complete sense for what kind of fighter they are, so this is less of a complaint and more of an observation. The reason this turns the B-Wing into a good superiority fighter is because it's dial is... surprisingly agile. A 2 K and a 1 hard make the B-Wing able to turn on a dime, and with a lot of pilots that rely on stress to trigger abilities, there is no downside to doing red maneuvers, no matter how many of those red maneuvers there are. Another reason is that with the cannon slot, it's also able to utilize it's slow speed to joust towards the enemy at the start of the game and hit them with long range cannon fire more accurate than the primary weapons of an X-Wing, but is able to be used back-to-back, unlike torps. I think that was a huge blunder, making cannons NOT give range combat bonuses to the enemy, because then X-Wings would have an undeniable advantage in jousting where it's faster speed allows it to get to close range and deny the extra green, allowing potentially higher damage projection.
In essence, while a B-Wing is extremely slow, it's upgrade slots allow for extreme range targeting with cannons, action efficiency with systems, and even crew abilities now. The only pilot that truly takes advantage of torpedoes is Nera Dantels, but even still, it's ultimately way more efficient to take Keyan with an HLC and PTL and just wreak havoc at any range with 4 dice, extreme mobility for a ship like the B-Wing, and lots of HP.
It doesn't really unbalance the game at all, but given what the B-Wing is supposed to do in canon, this doesn't really make any sense. If B-Wings acted exactly like they do in the books and video games, i highly doubt B-Wings would see the usage that they do, and the same goes for the X-Wing.
Maybe a home-brew way to fix this in casual or epic(especially epic) games is to establish specific rules to ensure that ships follow their intended canon roles, if you care that much. Like, for B-Wings "When attacking a small-base ship with your primary weapon, it rolls one additional defense die." X-WIngs "When attacking a small-base ship with your primary weapon, you may flip one of the enemies focus results to a blank." TIE Fighters "When you are within range 1 of at least 2 other TIE Fighters, you may roll one additional attack die."
I dunno, just some examples, but you see the point i'm making.
The general vibe I'm feeling regarding some the the new ordinance upgrades is that although its an improvement, many feel that its still not enough to make ordinance make a strong appearance in the game.
Is it? Because I've had tons of fun coming up with new ordnance-based lists. Has anyone actually played with the new cards and found that they don't fix ordnance? Or is it just the usual group of internet nay-sayers who take out their frustrations on other peoples' fun?
The most vocal minority will never be happy.
I don't think this is particularly fair.
I love the ordnance fixes being released as much as the next guy, but these fixes merely make it not-terrible rather than actually good.
I'll wait and see how it all plays out, but I remain unconvinced that ordnance is a viable choice, outside of some very specific pilot/upgrade combinations.
A-Wings with prockets or Advances with Prockets/Cluster Missiles that never go away would be annoying.
"Annoying" is an odd way to spell "absolutely terrifying."
A-Wings with prockets or Advances with Prockets/Cluster Missiles that never go away would be annoying.
"Annoying" is an odd way to spell "absolutely terrifying."
Or you take Expert Handling and laugh it off.
"Realistic" depiction of missiles and torps are almost impossible - a torp is an anti capital ship weapon - if a small or large ship takes one its very likely to be completely destroyed. Anti-starship missiles are not much better especially when used on a small ship. The bomb mechanic is strange in this game as well - more like anti pursuit weapons capital killers; or are mines.
But X-Wing is an abstract game - as long as its mechanicallly useful within the game it fine for me.
Torpedoes should have measely 3 dice attacks, but utilize the black dice armada-style, with hit-crit results.
Easily avoided for the most part, DEVASTATING when they hit.
Missiles should use blue ones, armada-style. Exceptionally precise, indeed, but not a backbreaker like the torpedoes.
and no need for three wave long fixing it with tons of cards
Edited by WarpmanTo answer that question I often compare 2x proton torpedoes (now proton + EM) against HLC as they are similar in terms of firepower and range. Just comparing the first and second shot HLC always wins against Proton Torpedoes w/EM because of the fact HLC can reroll dice with the TL token. Also HLC doesn't need TL so focus is much more usable on lower pilot skill and still has dice modification capabilities. IF you TL a ship when you don't intend of attacking that turn you are going to be chasing a wild goose all around the play mat as that ship is going to do anything and everything to make sure you cannot use that target lock. So trying to set up a TL + Focus without PTL or other abilities becomes very difficult.
But based on those findings I determined that the discarding mechanic is not the main factor that is keeping torpedo and missiles out of the meta.
Edited by MarinealverI would be slightly happier if GC could be taken alongside another modification. But maybe that's what Dual Upgrades will bring us. As it stands it is enough to start thinking about ordnance carriers again.
"Realistic" depiction of missiles and torps are almost impossible - a torp is an anti capital ship weapon - if a small or large ship takes one its very likely to be completely destroyed. Anti-starship missiles are not much better especially when used on a small ship. The bomb mechanic is strange in this game as well - more like anti pursuit weapons capital killers; or are mines.
But X-Wing is an abstract game - as long as its mechanicallly useful within the game it fine for me.
Torpedoes should have measely 3 dice attacks, but utilize the black dice armada-style, with hit-crit results.
Easily avoided for the most part, DEVASTATING when they hit.
Missiles should use blue ones, armada-style. Exceptionally precise, indeed, but not a backbreaker like the torpedoes.
and no need for three wave long fixing it with tons of cards
That would have been a terrific fix - but maybe torps should also do double damage as well on huge ships - its what they were built to kill after all.
A-Wings with prockets or Advances with Prockets/Cluster Missiles that never go away would be annoying.
"Annoying" is an odd way to spell "absolutely terrifying."
Or you take Expert Handling and laugh it off.
Your opponent will be the one laughing as he uses the focus action and prepares to fire.
"Realistic" depiction of missiles and torps are almost impossible - a torp is an anti capital ship weapon - if a small or large ship takes one its very likely to be completely destroyed. Anti-starship missiles are not much better especially when used on a small ship. The bomb mechanic is strange in this game as well - more like anti pursuit weapons capital killers; or are mines.
But X-Wing is an abstract game - as long as its mechanicallly useful within the game it fine for me.
Torpedoes should have measely 3 dice attacks, but utilize the black dice armada-style, with hit-crit results.
Easily avoided for the most part, DEVASTATING when they hit.
Missiles should use blue ones, armada-style. Exceptionally precise, indeed, but not a backbreaker like the torpedoes.
and no need for three wave long fixing it with tons of cards
That would have been a terrific fix - but maybe torps should also do double damage as well on huge ships - its what they were built to kill after all.
Too bad it's just too late in the game to implement that. Perhaps for a second edition though.
Or you take Expert Handling and laugh it off."Annoying" is an odd way to spell "absolutely terrifying."A-Wings with prockets or Advances with Prockets/Cluster Missiles that never go away would be annoying.
Your opponent will be the one laughing as he uses the focus action and prepares to fire.
If he takes focus action, where is he getting the TL and the "reload" action to fire again on the turn after he fired last?
"Realistic" depiction of missiles and torps are almost impossible - a torp is an anti capital ship weapon - if a small or large ship takes one its very likely to be completely destroyed. Anti-starship missiles are not much better especially when used on a small ship. The bomb mechanic is strange in this game as well - more like anti pursuit weapons capital killers; or are mines.
But X-Wing is an abstract game - as long as its mechanicallly useful within the game it fine for me.
Torpedoes should have measely 3 dice attacks, but utilize the black dice armada-style, with hit-crit results.
Easily avoided for the most part, DEVASTATING when they hit.
Missiles should use blue ones, armada-style. Exceptionally precise, indeed, but not a backbreaker like the torpedoes.
and no need for three wave long fixing it with tons of cards
That would have been a terrific fix - but maybe torps should also do double damage as well on huge ships - its what they were built to kill after all.
Too bad it's just too late in the game to implement that. Perhaps for a second edition though.
I like that idea too.
"Realistic" depiction of missiles and torps are almost impossible - a torp is an anti capital ship weapon - if a small or large ship takes one its very likely to be completely destroyed. Anti-starship missiles are not much better especially when used on a small ship. The bomb mechanic is strange in this game as well - more like anti pursuit weapons capital killers; or are mines.
But X-Wing is an abstract game - as long as its mechanicallly useful within the game it fine for me.
Torpedoes should have measely 3 dice attacks, but utilize the black dice armada-style, with hit-crit results.
Easily avoided for the most part, DEVASTATING when they hit.
Missiles should use blue ones, armada-style. Exceptionally precise, indeed, but not a backbreaker like the torpedoes.
and no need for three wave long fixing it with tons of cards
That would have been a terrific fix - but maybe torps should also do double damage as well on huge ships - its what they were built to kill after all.
Too bad it's just too late in the game to implement that. Perhaps for a second edition though.
There is no need of new physical dice to simulate that in the current edition of X-Wing. In fact, that is what precisely some of the current munitions already do. For example, you could say that Advanced proton torpedoes roll different kind of dice, that have 4 eyes, 3 hits and 1 crit on its sides.
The problem is that the designers have been extremely prude with the built-in self-modification abilities of munitions, and at the same time, extremely demanding on the requirements to equip them and use them.
Warpman's suggested missiles and torpedoes could be made like this, for a roughly similar result as to using Armada's black and blue dice:
Torpedo [Target Lock]. Attack 3, Range 1-3. Discard your target lock and this card. Change1 Crit result into 2 Crit results and all Eye results into Hit results.
Missile [Target Lock] Attack 3, Range 1-3. Discard your target lock and this card. Change 1 Hit result into a Crit result. Then change all blank results into hit results.
The problem with munitions is their effectiveness/cost ratio, where cost is both squad points and action economy. Compared to virtually any other kind of upgrade, they are terrible. Even compared to other single use upgrades.
As example, Crackshot is a 1 point upgrade that guarantees 1 damage at some point during the game, costing exactly zero actions and only the opportunity cost of not equipping a different EPT. You can use it whenever you feel for or the opportunity arises.
Compare to Proton Torpedoes, that costs 4 points and deals a maximum of 4 damage, but more probably between 0 and 2 (according to the lack of modification, and the defensive roll of the defender), and having a high action cost (you must use target lock just to be able to use it), and a lower usage window (you issue a warning on the ship that you target-lock, so that it is less likely that it will let you catch it in your arc).
Most munitions pile up inconvenience over inconvenience to use them. And that not even accounting for their point cost and their single use nature.
An example of an okay munition is "Hotshot blaster". It costs 3 points, it can deal up to 3 damage, with a high chance of being able to modify the roll because it requires no actions, and it is actually a 360 degree attack (something that is worth a bit).
I think munitions that cost a non-trivial amount squad points should guarantee some good damage. Or at least some alternate effects (like Flechette torpedoes).
I would probably equip my Z-95s something like
Accuracy Corrected Missile: Attack 3. Range 1-3. Cost 3. Attack [Target Lock]: Discard your target lock and this card. You may cancel all your dice results, to add 3 hit results.
Because that will problably make a difference during a game against a B-Wing or Y-Wing, or maybe even a Soontir.
Perhaps a title for the Punisher or Bomber could allow unlimited ordnance, but not for regular fighter craft.
I've never had a chance to launch more than two shots with a Punisher or Bomber before they get killed. Extra munitions does the job fine.
Sure, but if these craft still aren't seeing play then a 0 point title could certainly give them a bit of a buff without enabling unlimited procket A-wings.
You'd have unlimited APT Bombers instead. Add Scanners, grab a target lock, take a focus, move in, hit hard, and run as fast as you can, rinse repeat. Mr Infinite Crack Shot would love this, and even if he had to roll instead of focusing, he'd still roll five dice and ignore one of your evades.