I'd like to push this topic in another direction: What does an alpha-strike meta look like?

Because many of us wanted to try ordnance cuz it sucked, we in this area created some very powerful ordnance builds during wave8. Before the large ship MOV fix, the highest quality builds we could muster along with the forums' (Cluster Acc Tie Advanced, Gersun's 6Z) would only give you about a 45% against equal skilled opponents flying arc dodgers. Against largeship pre-nerf, you had maybe a 30%, based on the simple question if whether THEY were good at avoiding you or not.

Our conclusion: These ordnance builds were around the 40% mark, strictly tier 2.

Now with largeship mov fixed and guidance chips, id plant those builds now at a firm 50%.

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What we did:

We built lists that would deliver the highest punch with relative "pick-off" insurance, within a single turn of combat. Meaning, in one turn, we could fire for max effect.

We practiced hard on using very unmaneuverable ships to get shots off on arc dodgers, playing against lists like Soontir Vader Palp, or IGs.

Against large ships, we employed split formation deployment to increase chances of blocking.

During this time, we got so good at some of these ships, that we could take 4 to 6 unmaneuverable ships through DENSE asteroid fields, swarming/bumping etc, without making more than about 1-2 mistakes over 3 games.

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Anyway, after a while we started playing some ordnance vs ordnace builds. This is what we worried about: What does an alpha strike meta look like?

It turns out, its pretty "unfun". It usually starts with very quiet jostling for position, PS gets overly importnat, and then BLAM. a bunch of things die and both of you are left flying neutered lists.

Some people have equated it to flying 150 point 3x3 lists: you pick one ship on your opponents team that you dont like, remove it from the game on the first turn, then play a 100 pt game from there.

Due to the high cost of ordnance, most of the ships we flew also didn't have much in the way of repositioning.

It actually became a moderately boring game.

The takeaway is this: The newly buffed ordnance looks to be in a good spot. Powerful, but not overbearing. Too much ordnance is actually not that fun to play around.

I think it gives options. ATM -some- munitions on -some- bombers seem like a good option. a full list of "nothing but bombers", aka alpha-strike, doesn't look like it's good in every matchup. sure, more than good against certain lists, but doomed against others. so, as with 4x tlts, I see no long-term-danger to the game there.

it gives you options you haven't had before, and IMO that's good for the game.

but we'll see. I'm quite sure we will NOT see alpha-strikes from w8 to the next worlds, but in the crazy case that we do, I'm sure FFG will do something about it.

*no offense meant! just chuckling about the thought*

"might munitions be too good..?" - if somebody had asked that a year or two ago..

*no offense meant! just chuckling about the thought*

"might munitions be too good..?" - if somebody had asked that a year or two ago..

Right now, and that is including information from spoilers, ordnance and meta don't mix. It is an oxymoron to include those two in the same sentence without a negative word such as "not".

I often run ordnance on my ships and have enjoyed some good success with them. Horton with Torps is a regular in my lists and I remember one memorable game where he reduced Vader down to a single HP thanks to the combination of good rolling on my part and woeful dice from my opponent. :-)

I'll readily accept that the most competitive lists don't include them but I think in causal games and smaller tournaments, ordnance can have a place and can catch some opponents off guard. Somebody running your standard Soontir build and forgetting that you're packing Flechette Torps for example.

As someone who flies 5x Kihraxz I'm not excited about a potential ordinance meta. Not a lot of hit points and only two green dice.

I don't think ordnance will be a significant factor in the meta. Every list I face is based around aces that can manipulate what range they're at at will with high PS.

Catching Scum Super Dash or All Green Dial Dash with any arc based ship is going to be a headache let alone trying to do it with a bomber.

I'm sorry if I missed it, but what is the 'All Green Dial Dash'?

Proper name is Rainbow Dash (Dash+PtL+EU+OR/HLC+ Kanan Jarrus)

I wouldn't guess at an ordnance meta , just an ordnance leg of it

Just tested redline. Dies like a bwing, same as ever, but you need an elder gypsy's undying curse to roll less than max damage

Puts the CANNON back in glass cannon

His 3 FOs escort also had GC but they didn't do much (the GCs; FOs were great)

Looking forward to testing bombers

Ordnance. <3

Bombers. <3

Stuff that goes BOOM. <3

Yes, me likes.

I wouldn't guess at an ordnance meta , just an ordnance leg of it

Just tested redline. Dies like a bwing, same as ever, but you need an elder gypsy's undying curse to roll less than max damage

Puts the CANNON back in glass cannon

His 3 FOs escort also had GC but they didn't do much (the GCs; FOs were great)

Looking forward to testing bombers

concerning GCs: "You Require More Vespene Gas Bananas"

Torps are horribly expensive for what they currently do, but I have a few Y wings, so I may have to try them out with the new cards, if I can get them. Or maybe on my one, lonely K wing. It's a shame they don't include the cards on ships that would actually benefit from them.

I am quite happy with the new ordnance fixes coming out. I'm pretty happy with just Extra Munitions and my 4 x Scimitar Bombers, but those other new fixes are going to make it quite exciting.

Having a squad of scimitar will still struggle trying to catch fel

Even without Long Range Sensors, every game I've played vs. a Soontir Fel has seen my bombers kill him. He can't dodge everyone's arc. Once Long Range Sensors comes out, Soontir is going to be in real trouble. You can get the TL before he's in range and it's hard to go from out of range to then dodge an arc with someone with a Homing Missile. It's practically impossible. LRS will make killing Soontir Fel (and other arc dodgers) that much easier.

You only need 2 Homing Missiles (with a Focus) to kill a turtles Stealth Soontir Fel. Getting the Focus for the shot is very easy with the LRS.

I don't see any ordnance fix? The two new cards that are supposed to fix it are OK but not a fix. One changes one dice to make it a hit(or crit for stronger attackers which I don't understand thematically anyway). I do not calculate the math but guidance chips seem average at best. Maybe someone has run the maths and can show me they are worth it. Long range scanners are OK but mainly for normal shooting.

a 0 point upgrade with no detriment (that matters on the ship that's taking them) is hardly "average"

GC is ridiculous, and anything that fixes crap RNG is more than welcome in this game

**** man, I take it on my FOs! It doesn't do ****, but it doesn't cost **** either

While I am quite happy with the fixes to ordnance, I don't think I will run such a one-dimensional list as 6Z for regionals again. It isn't because they're not good, and it isn't because they're not fun or satisfying to play with, it is because one dimensional lists amplify your matchups. Good matchups become great, and bad matchups become horrible.

Last year I developed my 6Z list in January, and played it almost exclusively until June. I knew how to approach my different matchups, and I figured the list would just take people by surprise. It did, and even then I barely made the cut into the elimination rounds, because it was a two flight format, and they did a cut to top 16 in each, rather than top 8 (I have no idea why, but I'm not complaining). Ordnance is great for taking down large based ships. I faced one in each round of elimination and I got to the final table. Two weeks later I went to the Vancouver BC regional and lost to AAXX (hahahaha, such an anti-meta list!) and lost, I won my next couple games, but got paired up against my good friend and sparring partner, who had flown against my list for the past six months, and I lost. His list, for those who care, was Boba, Guri, and a Binayre (we played many practice games before the tournament and I would always kill Boba in the second round, and then Guri would murder my Zs, one at a time, for the next 45 minutes. It was usually a toss up who would win).

TL:DR

While ordnance builds are fun and they can be powerful, it feels very one-dimensional. I will happily include one or two Z95s with a missile and chips, or a 22-25 point bomber in many lists, but spamming one ship doesn't give you the tools to be an all-comer list, which the top lists have to be.

I'm happy to be wrong, but I don't think the ordnance meta will really take off outside of some very specific builds.

I've gone back and forth on LRS and I only like it on Homing Missile carriers, and maybe K-Wings.

WC struck me initially as quite good, but more so on higher PS pilots who can more easily take TL, and only with specific ordnance, Homing Missile, Concussion missile, Proton Torpedo.

Specific effect torpedoes and WC on Ten Numb is useful but expensive, so I don't see it outside fun lists.

Maybe I'm not as bright as I like to think I am, but I see it more as a temporary curiosity rather than an actual meta shift.

There already are some alpha strike lists.

Firstly, Super Corran and Super Phantom and Super RAC and "lol 5 dice HLC Jan Ors and Super Dash" are all alpha strikers. They have ridiculous offense except there is no setup involved (ie target locking a turn in advance) and none of those combos require discarding anything. We've had this sort of stuff since the Phantom broke the game, it's just that no one is really seeing these ships as "Alpha Strikers" since they can do it every turn and it isn't based on ordnance or other disposable upgrades.

But as for alpha strikes based on ordnance and generic pilots and disposable upgrades? Well we have the dual IG Glitterstim+Crackshot list, and we have 3x Black Squadron, 3x Omega Squadron, 6x Crackshot or other variations of it. We also have the Quad Tempest, Quad Prockets/Clusters.

I haven't played the dual IG list I mentioned, but the 6x Crackshot list I've been playing non-stop. And it's great.

I haven't played the dual IG list I mentioned, but the 6x Crackshot list I've been playing non-stop. And it's great.

Alpha-Crabs are fine, but don't scare neither the PWTs nor arcdodgers, nor TLT spam.

They can whack, yes, but are very limited in usability.

the old-but-gold

PTL+Advsensor

or Advsensor+Predator

or FCS+PTL tend to be more reliable. Because alpha strike is 1,5-2 damage higher than consistent crab damage.

I played a against an ordnance list thother day - I discovered Wes Freaking Janson is the BANE of Ordnance lists. Expert Handling could see a decent comeback as well.

Ordnance is in a great spot atm. Its advancing so fast and is so diverse theres really no way to tell.

I like that they didn't do a single blanket fix that would end up pushing choices out and making others OP'd. Their approach was incremental and weighed and for good reason. Both LRS and GC are stupid good. Seriously a 0 cost passive half-poe ability on weaponry that already ignores range bonus and/or tokens/shields and get easily throw 5-6 dice? Hows that average again?

Meanwhile LRS is a straight tempo play that completely invalidates the PS bid. It costs you nothing to secure initially and while it might not be tangible outright its power becomes readily apparent soon after. I've been proxying LRS since it was spoiled and have just started with GC and both are fantastic. In fact tracers are solid too.

Agreed on EH.

Thanks Gersun for your list and your thoughts.

I actually created my own 6Z list after looking at yours, but its entirely different.

I must agree, perhaps we should start considering using 1 or 2 ordnancers in a build versus a bunch. With the new fixes, i think you don't ahve to min/max so hard on ordnance.

The question is what good 2 ordnance carriers do for you.

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If MJ is around, I'd love to hear if the jousting efficiency of say a Z with Conc missile and guidance is now near or at the general statline efficiency for the same amount of Zs naked.

Im still not convinced, probably wont be until I see a few in the top 10 of worlds. But I cant see it and its is like Poe if he could only do it once a game for attacking. There are a lot more secondary weapons that ignore range and stay until the end(unless critted). Compare TLT to one shot ordnance, I know what was in the worlds. And although LRS do have a donut they seem quite good, but like I said just for normal shooting (does mean I wont see any more of those games where a bomber list doesn't even get to TL before they are shot). Tracers are cheap and help swarm lists get the initial TL but they don't improve the effectiveness of ordnance. Maybe peeps on Vassal have results in their tournaments that can shoot me down and ordnance is good now.

a 0 point upgrade with no detriment (that matters on the ship that's taking them) is hardly "average"

GC is ridiculous, and anything that fixes crap RNG is more than welcome in this game

**** man, I take it on my FOs! It doesn't do ****, but it doesn't cost **** either

Not that i wouldn't agree tgat GC is a very welcome addition and could make missiles and torps somewhat more popular, fixing crap RNG is not always welcome in this game.

I don't know but if i want no RNG i guess i have to play Star Wars the Chess game. A miniatures game is only good in my book if RNG and skill are in a healthy balance. I think that GC will not tip that too much in favor of no RNG left, but FFG should be aware to not include too many of these upgrades like these. Autothrusters, GC, ATC... they permit to ignore a crucial element of X-Wing whichbis just pure luck!

Until now these upgrades were necessary balancing steps, but this should not go too far or else we will be in a meta with complete no-brainer equipment.

Im still not convinced, probably wont be until I see a few in the top 10 of worlds.

I'm not sure if ordnance heavy lists will ever make top 10 at Worlds. The people that go that route are trying desperately to reduce any variance in the dice. I'm not sure if ordnance will ever get that set. Is that the key indicator if something is competitive or not? If so, then that narrows down the game to only a few types of lists ever. That's a horrible way to play the game in my opinion. I don't live anywhere near Worlds and have no budget or time for the adventure. So, to say something is only good if it makes it into Top 10 at Worlds is rather ridiculous to me.

a 0 point upgrade with no detriment (that matters on the ship that's taking them) is hardly "average"

GC is ridiculous, and anything that fixes crap RNG is more than welcome in this game

**** man, I take it on my FOs! It doesn't do ****, but it doesn't cost **** either

Not that i wouldn't agree tgat GC is a very welcome addition and could make missiles and torps somewhat more popular, fixing crap RNG is not always welcome in this game.

I don't know but if i want no RNG i guess i have to play Star Wars the Chess game. A miniatures game is only good in my book if RNG and skill are in a healthy balance. I think that GC will not tip that too much in favor of no RNG left, but FFG should be aware to not include too many of these upgrades like these. Autothrusters, GC, ATC... they permit to ignore a crucial element of X-Wing whichbis just pure luck!

Until now these upgrades were necessary balancing steps, but this should not go too far or else we will be in a meta with complete no-brainer equipment.

yeah no

I'm here to fly ships, not to lose to random bull. If I wanted that, I'd be playing Yahtzee

RNG should only be there to provide some minor variance, but if they start dictating games then they can **** right off

this is part of why GC is so nice. You really have to push yourself to land TLs on enemies and you are rewarded for your efforts without dice flipping you the bird

a 0 point upgrade with no detriment (that matters on the ship that's taking them) is hardly "average"

GC is ridiculous, and anything that fixes crap RNG is more than welcome in this game

**** man, I take it on my FOs! It doesn't do ****, but it doesn't cost **** either

Not that i wouldn't agree tgat GC is a very welcome addition and could make missiles and torps somewhat more popular, fixing crap RNG is not always welcome in this game.

I don't know but if i want no RNG i guess i have to play Star Wars the Chess game. A miniatures game is only good in my book if RNG and skill are in a healthy balance. I think that GC will not tip that too much in favor of no RNG left, but FFG should be aware to not include too many of these upgrades like these. Autothrusters, GC, ATC... they permit to ignore a crucial element of X-Wing whichbis just pure luck!

Until now these upgrades were necessary balancing steps, but this should not go too far or else we will be in a meta with complete no-brainer equipment.

yeah no

I'm here to fly ships, not to lose to random bull. If I wanted that, I'd be playing Yahtzee

RNG should only be there to provide some minor variance, but if they start dictating games then they can **** right off

this is part of why GC is so nice. You really have to push yourself to land TLs on enemies and you are rewarded for your efforts without dice flipping you the bird

Well, this game has a fair portion of both luck and skill that you need, and i don't see that changing anytime soon. The luck factor can be game deciding, and often it is. And sometimes you lose despite flying perfectly . For me this is an important part of X-Wing abd should at all cost be preserved.