The X-Wing was technically no more than a glorified Z-95 . But the comics and the books put it so much on a pedestal that now it feels weird that it actually doesn't mop the floor with any other ship as easily as it did in those books and comics.

Source? I'm assuming the source for the 'X-Wing was no better than a glorified Z-95' comes from these same 'comics and books'? Because it sure as hell wasn't from the movies.

There is no point on asking for a source for that statement when you reduce the universe to what is shown or spoken on the movies, especially when the statement involves a ship that appears in no movie at all.

In any case, my source would be the Star Wars Databank, that listed the Z-95 as a predecessor to the T-65.

And not ALL books (or EU sources) depicted the X-Wing as the "ultimate starfighter".

So the T-54 tank is just a glorified T-34, because the T-34 was a predecessor of T-54?

Examples are the thrawn novels with mara jades Z-95, the X-Wing games, the clone wars series. The X-Wing got more firepower via its quad-lasers and the engine to sustain those weapons, together with a torpedo launcher instead of the missile one, but that's it basically. It clearly is the better multi-purpose fighter than the Z-95, but the margin between them is not large.

Umm, the X-Wing games had a large discrepancy between the capabilities of the X and Z. The X-Wing had a much better hull and shield rating, and Astromech socket, and the obvious double firepower.

Weren't the Z-95's "triple-blasters" individually more powerful than the X-wing's laser cannons - but because it had two of them - it was less powerful overall?

I've also noticed that, at least in some games (Star Wars d20 Saga Edition) it has comparable hit points and armour to the X-wing.

In some of the computer games it's almost as fragile as the TIE Fighter, it is true:

These are the stats taken from the game files:

Name Shields Hull Length Speed LIMGTW Special
A-wing 50 16 10 120 2 2
Assault Gunboat 100 30 15 90 222
B-wing 100 62 15 90 332
Combat Utility Vehicle 7 15 35 22 repair/rearm
Missile Boat 120 20 15 125 1 4
R-41 Starchaser 30 15 15 100 22
T-wing 20 15 10 110 2
Tie Advanced 50 15 10 145 4 2
Tie Bomber 30 10 80 2 2
Tie Defender 100 15 10 155 422
Tie Fighter 10 10 100 2
Tie Interceptor 17 10 110 4
Transport 80 40 20 55 22 repair/rearm
Tug 5 5 10 repair/rearm
Tyderian Shuttle 100 25 20 65 4
X-wing 50 21 15 100 4 2
Y-wing 75 42 20 80 222
Z-95 Headhunter 20 15 15 95 2 2

Perhaps a "closer to the fluff" version of the Z-95 for X-wing would have 3 hull 1 shield instead of 2 hull 2 shield (given how much tougher TIE hulls are in the tabletop game compared to the computer game).

The X-Wing was technically no more than a glorified Z-95 . But the comics and the books put it so much on a pedestal that now it feels weird that it actually doesn't mop the floor with any other ship as easily as it did in those books and comics.

Source? I'm assuming the source for the 'X-Wing was no better than a glorified Z-95' comes from these same 'comics and books'? Because it sure as hell wasn't from the movies.

There is no point on asking for a source for that statement when you reduce the universe to what is shown or spoken on the movies, especially when the statement involves a ship that appears in no movie at all.

In any case, my source would be the Star Wars Databank, that listed the Z-95 as a predecessor to the T-65.

And not ALL books (or EU sources) depicted the X-Wing as the "ultimate starfighter".

So the T-54 tank is just a glorified T-34, because the T-34 was a predecessor of T-54?

The F35 is just a glorified and overpriced F-18 Superhornet. Though the agument is less along the lines that the T-65 is successor of the Z-95 Heavy, but more along the lines that the performance upgrades are indeed minor. EU and Cannon seem to agree on that. Examples are the thrawn novels with mara jades Z-95, the X-Wing games, the clone wars series. The X-Wing got more firepower via its quad-lasers and the engine to sustain those weapons, together with a torpedo launcher instead of the missile one, but that's it basically. It clearly is the better multi-purpose fighter than the Z-95, but the margin between them is not large.

I don't know how the fact that Z-95s do well in some novels and TCW means that X-wings would do just barely better. Why not massively better? What makes you think a single X wouldn't suffice in place of 5 or 10 TCW Z-95s?

Firepower, engine, shields, literally all the most important upgrades in a starfighter. You can apply the same description to TIE/ln -> TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced -> TIE Defender, hell, even Z-95 -> T-70.

Games were never canon, especially when it comes to specific statistics. In TIE Fighter game you could solo CR-90s with your TIE.

The X-Wing was technically no more than a glorified Z-95 . But the comics and the books put it so much on a pedestal that now it feels weird that it actually doesn't mop the floor with any other ship as easily as it did in those books and comics.

Source? I'm assuming the source for the 'X-Wing was no better than a glorified Z-95' comes from these same 'comics and books'? Because it sure as hell wasn't from the movies.

There is no point on asking for a source for that statement when you reduce the universe to what is shown or spoken on the movies, especially when the statement involves a ship that appears in no movie at all.

In any case, my source would be the Star Wars Databank, that listed the Z-95 as a predecessor to the T-65.

And not ALL books (or EU sources) depicted the X-Wing as the "ultimate starfighter".

So the T-54 tank is just a glorified T-34, because the T-34 was a predecessor of T-54?

Examples are the thrawn novels with mara jades Z-95, the X-Wing games, the clone wars series. The X-Wing got more firepower via its quad-lasers and the engine to sustain those weapons, together with a torpedo launcher instead of the missile one, but that's it basically. It clearly is the better multi-purpose fighter than the Z-95, but the margin between them is not large.

Umm, the X-Wing games had a large discrepancy between the capabilities of the X and Z. The X-Wing had a much better hull and shield rating, and Astromech socket, and the obvious double firepower.

As I said, no large marin in overall performance, both sucked hard compared to dedicated interceptors in a dogfight. And I mentioned the better engine (leading to overall more energy available for shields and weapons). In the end both were bricks compared to interceptors and other dedicated dogfighters. As I said the X-Wing is clearly the better multi-purpose ship, especially because it could do torpedo runs against capital ships. But both ships still fail to impress compared to B-Wings, A-Wings, and even regular TIE-Fighters. And lets be honest here "much better hull and shield ratings" means in this context that both still explode after a few hits from quad-lasers. And with a few I most likely mean that both ships explode after the second hit. You see this on the T-65 and Z-95 plenty of times in clone wars and the death star trench run.

We better happily ignore the whole TIE-Advance series, because they are a mess within the EU, mostly non-canon and even in TIE-Fighter a little bit of a power creep thing. I still want my avenger in FFG games ;-)

The X-Wing was technically no more than a glorified Z-95 . But the comics and the books put it so much on a pedestal that now it feels weird that it actually doesn't mop the floor with any other ship as easily as it did in those books and comics.

Source? I'm assuming the source for the 'X-Wing was no better than a glorified Z-95' comes from these same 'comics and books'? Because it sure as hell wasn't from the movies.

There is no point on asking for a source for that statement when you reduce the universe to what is shown or spoken on the movies, especially when the statement involves a ship that appears in no movie at all.

In any case, my source would be the Star Wars Databank, that listed the Z-95 as a predecessor to the T-65.

And not ALL books (or EU sources) depicted the X-Wing as the "ultimate starfighter".

So the T-54 tank is just a glorified T-34, because the T-34 was a predecessor of T-54?

Examples are the thrawn novels with mara jades Z-95, the X-Wing games, the clone wars series. The X-Wing got more firepower via its quad-lasers and the engine to sustain those weapons, together with a torpedo launcher instead of the missile one, but that's it basically. It clearly is the better multi-purpose fighter than the Z-95, but the margin between them is not large.

Umm, the X-Wing games had a large discrepancy between the capabilities of the X and Z. The X-Wing had a much better hull and shield rating, and Astromech socket, and the obvious double firepower.

As I said, no large marin in overall performance, both sucked hard compared to dedicated interceptors in a dogfight. And I mentioned the better engine (leading to overall more energy available for shields and weapons). In the end both were bricks compared to interceptors and other dedicated dogfighters. As I said the X-Wing is clearly the better multi-purpose ship, especially because it could do torpedo runs against capital ships. But both ships still fail to impress compared to B-Wings, A-Wings, and even regular TIE-Fighters. And lets be honest here "much better hull and shield ratings" means in this context that both still explode after a few hits from quad-lasers. And with a few I most likely mean that both ships explode after the second hit. You see this on the T-65 and Z-95 plenty of times in clone wars and the death star trench run.

We better happily ignore the whole TIE-Advance series, because they are a mess within the EU, mostly non-canon and even in TIE-Fighter a little bit of a power creep thing. I still want my avenger in FFG games ;-)

X wing had torpedo tubes enough for two runs and hyperdrive for Hit'n'run tactics.

but in a dogfight 95 was slighlty more nimble, with smaller turn radius.

and it's triple blasters were more powerful that X-wings wingtip mounted ones.

I feel there is a pretty easy 'fix' for them. Just basically steal the Test Pilot from the A-wings. Give em a title "Rouge Squadron" for 0. Add a EPT slot to the pilot must be PS 5 or higher (sorry Tarn, but otherwise we get those pesky Red Squads sneaking in). Or to make it a bit more unique same title for 3. Add a EPT slot and barrel roll to the action bar.

Will set them apart from their T-70 brothers, help them ease into arc dodging, while not giving them a huge power boost.

X wing =\= arc dodger

and double EPT will help almost anything.

except for scyk. it scyks.

0 point Rogue squadron title granting an EPT (or extra EPT) would be a great fix, and it should include the 4 PS red squadron pilots.

Insert Rogue-1 Movie X-wing here

0 point title, X-wing only

after performing a red or green maneuver, you may perform a boost or assign a focus token to your ship. If you do, you must skip your Perform Action step

we can't redo the T-65's dial, but we can give it inverted segnor's! (and make targeting astromech not super horrible, hopefully)

buffs Stay on Target, and r4-d6 to a lesser extent

the ultimate problem of the X, apart from just not being efficient, is that base jousters are boring as sin imo. With Starvipers, brobots, FOs and even the T-70 having been introduced, there's just no going back to ye ole move + focus or K-turn every turn

I don't think it would be terrible if a "boost" astromech were provided for a point. It would be nice for Luke, Wedge, and Wes without necessarily being an auto include. It would also give a decent buff to Horton. Because these guys can't reposition without paying out the nose for an engine upgrade, they are in essence paying a premium for high PS without getting nearly as much benefit.

I wouldn't even be opposed to an EPT based on PS 8 plus for a boost.

"Full Throttle" 1 point

Small ship only. Must have PS 8 or higher. Your action bar gains the boost icon.

Fixes some major issues with Talonbane, Wedge, Wes, Luke, Horton, Cracken, Jan, Ten Numb, Serissu that crosses factions.

I thought of an astromech that grants a system upgrade. Could be really cool. R?-?? 1 point grants a system slot.

*Sounds of Starviper sobbing in the distance at the sound of such proposals

Why do people want the T-65 become a monster with all actions, statline worthy of a 50-point monster and in-built shenanigans that usually cost a slot and points?

Fetishism?

We don't want the X-Wing to get any kind of in-game plot armor. We just want it to be what it is supposed to be: a fair-costed versatile fighter. You know, a ship more capable in a dogfight than a B-Wing (which currently it isn't, quite the opposite), if less powerful (which it is).

That said, some suggestions here are just over-the-top.

X wing =\= arc dodger

and double EPT will help almost anything.

except for scyk. it scyks.

A single barrel roll on a not very agile (dial) ship, will not make X-Wings arc dodgers. Someone like wedge with, engine upgrade will not arc dodge someone like soontir, even when he should have a chance against low skill interceptors, but even against those there are no guarantees.

But what a barrell roll would do is the help the X-Wing to keep targets in arc, making arc dodging against them harder, while allow them to arc dodge from time to time, especially against even less mobile ships like Y-Wings. This would actually fit the all purpose theme of X-Wings rather well. Besides, B-Wings have it, it kind of silly to not have the roll on X-Wings.

Though imo it was as well silly to not have the roll on a-wings. ;-)

It appears there is no clear idea about what the X-Wing's position in the game is supposed to be. If it was up to me, I'd go for a fighter with very few or no special actions but the best basic values for points. IA went some way towards that. I suspect it was not quite enough, given the B-Wing's very slightly better jousting value and the relative weakness of two green dice.

My suggested solutions are to introduce 0-point astromechs and/or a title that offers a free torpedo upgrade.

I do think that the X-Wing deserves to be a staple in Rebel lists. Regardless of how similar it was to the Z-95 (that seems a pointless discussion), I see the X as the backbone of the Rebel fleet.

X-Wings are supposed to be the ship that can do a little of everything, joust, torp boat, dogfighter. They just don't do any of those things well enough to take the place of more specialized ships in most cases. Integrated Astro helps durability quite a bit but they still fall behind. I think it is going to need several titles just like the Defender is getting for the X-Wing to finally shine.

1. Jouster Title

X-Wing only, ? points

When Attacking or defending at range 2, roll 1 additional die.

So 4 red dice at R1-2 and 3 greens at R2-3. Would that be enough to offset its lack of repositioning? What should it cost?

2. Torpedo Title

X-Wing only, 0 points

Your upgrade bar gains 2 torpedo icons. Reduce the cost of all equipped torpedo upgrades by 1 to a minimum of 0.

This guy can take Guidance Chips, Extra Munitions and 2X Plasmas for 5 points giving him 4 shots of 4 modified dice punishment when getting someone in arc.

3. Dogfighter title

X-Wing Only, ? points

At the start of the combat phase, if you do not have an enemy ship in your firing arc, you may perform a free barrel roll or evade action.

So when you are arc dodged, you can have a chance to get back in the fight, or turtle up a bit. Combine with PTL for some combat phase shenanigans.

These are rough ideas, obviously, but they are the types of things that could give the jack of all trades ship the chance to be the master of something.

Edit: Spelling

Title that lets you disregard your chosen maneuver and do a hard 1 turn, then stress.

There's your dog fighter.

Really tho, shouldn't X-wings hang back at range 3 until it's time for a range 1 kill shot? Or is that too hard to do?

so broken ideas

1. Jouster Title

X-Wing only, ? points

When Attacking or defending at range 2, roll 1 additional die.

So 4 red dice at R1-2 and 3 greens at R2-3. Would that be enough to offset its lack of repositioning? What should it cost?

All of the points.

The X-Wing was technically no more than a glorified Z-95 . But the comics and the books put it so much on a pedestal that now it feels weird that it actually doesn't mop the floor with any other ship as easily as it did in those books and comics.

Source? I'm assuming the source for the 'X-Wing was no better than a glorified Z-95' comes from these same 'comics and books'? Because it sure as hell wasn't from the movies.

There is no point on asking for a source for that statement when you reduce the universe to what is shown or spoken on the movies, especially when the statement involves a ship that appears in no movie at all.

In any case, my source would be the Star Wars Databank, that listed the Z-95 as a predecessor to the T-65.

And not ALL books (or EU sources) depicted the X-Wing as the "ultimate starfighter".

So the T-54 tank is just a glorified T-34, because the T-34 was a predecessor of T-54?

Examples are the thrawn novels with mara jades Z-95, the X-Wing games, the clone wars series. The X-Wing got more firepower via its quad-lasers and the engine to sustain those weapons, together with a torpedo launcher instead of the missile one, but that's it basically. It clearly is the better multi-purpose fighter than the Z-95, but the margin between them is not large.

Umm, the X-Wing games had a large discrepancy between the capabilities of the X and Z. The X-Wing had a much better hull and shield rating, and Astromech socket, and the obvious double firepower.

As I said, no large marin in overall performance, both sucked hard compared to dedicated interceptors in a dogfight. And I mentioned the better engine (leading to overall more energy available for shields and weapons). In the end both were bricks compared to interceptors and other dedicated dogfighters. As I said the X-Wing is clearly the better multi-purpose ship, especially because it could do torpedo runs against capital ships. But both ships still fail to impress compared to B-Wings, A-Wings, and even regular TIE-Fighters. And lets be honest here "much better hull and shield ratings" means in this context that both still explode after a few hits from quad-lasers. And with a few I most likely mean that both ships explode after the second hit. You see this on the T-65 and Z-95 plenty of times in clone wars and the death star trench run.

The X-Wing was perfectly capable of going toe-to-toe with any of those ships, and could curbstomp a lot of them. An X-Wing is perfectly ok with facing 2 or even 3 of the little things.

The T-65 was in two battles in the OT, three if you count Hoth where it was doing blockade running escort duty. In these battles it wasn't particularly impressive. Show me where the X-wing was any better than any other fighters?

Until Rebels shows the T-65 doing something noteworthy it's just another starfighter that the Alliance happened to be able to steal or buy in quantity.

Um.. It blew up the frickin Deathstar ...

Um.. It blew up the frickin Deathstar ...

Thanks to the Force. And a smuggler with a heart of gold. Might as well say the Falcon did the majority of work blowing up both Death Stars.

Um.. It blew up the frickin Deathstar ...

With Deadeye Proton Torpedo

Neeerf!

The T-65 was in two battles in the OT, three if you count Hoth where it was doing blockade running escort duty. In these battles it wasn't particularly impressive. Show me where the X-wing was any better than any other fighters?

Until Rebels shows the T-65 doing something noteworthy it's just another starfighter that the Alliance happened to be able to steal or buy in quantity.

Go home, you're drunk.

The T-65 was in two battles in the OT, three if you count Hoth where it was doing blockade running escort duty. In these battles it wasn't particularly impressive. Show me where the X-wing was any better than any other fighters?

Until Rebels shows the T-65 doing something noteworthy it's just another starfighter that the Alliance happened to be able to steal or buy in quantity.

2 Deathstars, everything Wedge does, the Torpedo runs on the shield generators on the Star Destroyers not enough for you?

The X-Wing was the key to Yavin. Both groups of 3 X-Wings that made a run got a shot on the exhaust port, the Y-Wings were too slow and got shot down. The speed of the X-Wing is more advantageous for doing attack runs.