From my previous readings, I understood that Soresu is the best defensive style with a weakness that practitioner has limited (counter)attack capability.While Shien uses the attack of your opponent to counterattack, but somewhat weakens your defense in the process (compared to Soresu).

Game mechanics tells a bit different story. While Soresu has improved version (which is more counterattack) of both parry / reflect, it has supreme version (which is pure enhanced defense) for parry only. It would make sense for me the other way around: more enhanced defense and less counterattack capability. You can get fired upon by lot more enemies than attacked in melee, and you can hold your ground much better with Shien, as you run out of strain real quick without supreme reflect. At the same time, Soresu is lot better at counterattack than Shien. Should not it be the opposite?

I have not received my copy of Keeping the Peace yet, but does it change anything regarding this?

They've adapted the EU form V quite a lot to make Shien Expert. Form V has two branches, both with the same mentality of counterattacking, Shien is largely focused on ranged defense so it wouldn't make sense for it to have improved parry. Djeim So is the melee form and wouldn't really make sense as a cunning branch of lightsaber contact since it requires a large ammount of physical strength. Soresu Defender probably doesn't have supreme reflect because they felt that would make it step on Shien Expert's toes too much.

That's what makes sense to me anyway.

The writers simply had their own interpretations.

Also, while Soresu was heavily focused on defense, a lot of that was waiting for the opportune moment to attack, be it at range or in close quarters. The Defensive Circle talent bears this out, as it really benefits a character that doesn't have any melee or ranged defense, and lets them use their action to not make a combat check (Defensive Circle is a specific action) so that they can benefit from Supreme Parry. With Defensive Circle and a lot of Advantage, a Soresu Defender can put enough setback dice into an opponent's combat check that the "opportune moment" to counterattack presents itself more readily.

Form V is really more offensive in mindset, with the Shien branch being to turn an opponent's firepower back at them, typically while still attacking or getting into position to attack with their lightsaber. Anakin was definitely not the "stand there and wait" type of combatant, in contrast to Obi-Wan's patient use of Soresu which eventually lead the more seasoned Jedi Master to triumph in their duel at Mustafar.

So in that respect, with Soresu being more primed for waiting to make a counterattack (i.e. use Improved Parry/Reflect) vs. Shien/Djem So being focused on unrelenting assault, be it the occasional deflected blaster bolt or hammering away with a lightsaber, the writers got that part of it right.

Personally, I've always felt that Soresu should have both Supreme Parry and Supreme Reflect. That was Soresu's purpose afterall, to be unmatched in defense. If I were to make a change, I'd probably replace the 4 tier Defensive Stance for Improved Reflect, and then place Supreme Reflect where the Improved version use to be. Keep in mind, this is off-the-cuff and is not a change I currently make in my games. It is something I would consider though.

As for Shien, that specialization is built remarkably well. It has Reflect, Improved Reflect, and Supreme Reflect to represent Shien's concepts. I also has Parry, Counter Attack, Djem So Reflection and Falling Avalanche allowing you to get within melee range and hit hard. Combined with other interesting abilities like Saber Throw and Disruptive Strike, and you've got a very solidly built form. It needs no changes.

If any form is cunning based it would be Juyo and Vaapid. Shien isn't about cunning its a single style that relies heavily on strength to work. Even its ranged deflection requires a great deal of upper body strength to block and reflect so many attacks. Its attacks are all strong over hand swings designed to take advantage of the physical strength of its user. Shien is entirely a Brawn based light saber style just due to the physical requirements to perform it.

Juyo uses cunning in its very chaotic start and stop attack patterns designed to throw an opponent off balance and land hits by confusing them.

Vaapid is all about turning an opponent's own strength and emotions against them literally feeding off them to make its user stronger.

Agree that Shien Expert is a well built and flexible form, so it is basically good as it is. Although I do not see the point in the Counterstrike talent, I might not understand it well. For 2 threats / 1 despair, you get 1 upgrade for next Lightsaber (Cun) against that opponent. However, as per general combat rules, for the same 2 threats / 1 despair, you can get 1 boost die for any check against anyone, and you don't have to pay 15 Xp for it. Upgrade is not that much powerful to compensate for all the other limitations.

On the other hand, for Soresu Defender, I really miss that Supreme Reflect, even at the expense of Improved Parry or Reflect, if having everything is considered too powerful. Soresu should be the ultimate defense, and a few groups of B1 droids can gun you down real quick without it. However, understand even Keeping the Peace has no changes for this and Supreme Reflect will be restricted to Shien Expert.

For Counterstrike, it depends on how your dice pool is built.

If you've got the same value in Cunning as you do ranks in Lightsaber, then an upgrade gives you another ability die, which is generally more beneficial than a boost die.

There's also the matter that a proficiency die gives you the chance of rolling a Triumph, which can be psychologically very satisfying to the player. The games I've been in, the players get excited when they see a Triumph result show up, and that Triumph can be spent to do some really cool stuff... provided the GM is willing to go beyond the "suggested uses" chart in the book; sadly there are some GMs out there that can't or won't let Triumphs be used for anything beyond that chart lists.

For a 15 XP talent, it's a bit situational in how effective it is, which is good. Very few talents should be "oh, I have GOT to have this!" and those should generally be in the 20 to 25 XP range.

If any form is cunning based it would be Juyo and Vaapid. Shien isn't about cunning its a single style that relies heavily on strength to work. Even its ranged deflection requires a great deal of upper body strength to block and reflect so many attacks. Its attacks are all strong over hand swings designed to take advantage of the physical strength of its user. Shien is entirely a Brawn based light saber style just due to the physical requirements to perform it.

Juyo uses cunning in its very chaotic start and stop attack patterns designed to throw an opponent off balance and land hits by confusing them.

Vaapid is all about turning an opponent's own strength and emotions against them literally feeding off them to make its user stronger.

Well, Anakin was described in ANH by Old Ben as being a " cunning warrior." So if nothing else, the designers are playing along with Ben's description and ensuring that Anakin's use of Form V would make him a " cunning warrior"

And cunning does seem to be a trait amongst Form V users, being on the look out for ways to exploit the first sign of weakness in an opponent's defenses. There's also an element of brute force, with the Falling Avalanche talent covering that aspect. Soresu is mildly similar, but that's more waiting for an opponent to start wearing themselves out and getting sloppy and thus leaving openings in their defenses, where Shien/Djem So is more about ending the fight fast and creating those openings.

Juyo (and by extension Vaapad) are a combination of Forms I through V, taking elements of each to incorporate into a highly demanding fighting technique. If anything, given the high amount of self-control needed to keep from going too dark, Willpower would be the characteristic associated with Form VII. In supplemental Legends material, Windu had noted it took a great deal of self-control when he used Vaapad to keep from going too dark, and the two Jedi Masters that helped him develop the Form VII variant both wound up going dark and/or crazy.

All this talk of forms makes me think that lightsaber arts needs its own "Bruce Lee", someone who rejects the notion of fixed styles.

All this talk of forms makes me think that lightsaber arts needs its own "Bruce Lee", someone who rejects the notion of fixed styles.

In Legends at least, they pretty much did in the form of Luke Skywalker and his New Jedi Order, who had to start from scratch given how much of the lore on the classic Forms was lost. In fact, the NJO had created it's own "forms" which were separated into Fast Style, Medium Style (which was something of a default), and Strong Style thanks to the efforts of Kyle Katarn in his role as the NJO's Battle Master. Luke himself was being noted as a prodigy when it came to lightsaber combat, so he probably operated on a "don't think, feel" mindset when it came to using a lightsaber.

For Counterstrike, it depends on how your dice pool is built.

If you've got the same value in Cunning as you do ranks in Lightsaber, then an upgrade gives you another ability die, which is generally more beneficial than a boost die.

There's also the matter that a proficiency die gives you the chance of rolling a Triumph, which can be psychologically very satisfying to the player. The games I've been in, the players get excited when they see a Triumph result show up, and that Triumph can be spent to do some really cool stuff... provided the GM is willing to go beyond the "suggested uses" chart in the book; sadly there are some GMs out there that can't or won't let Triumphs be used for anything beyond that chart lists.

For a 15 XP talent, it's a bit situational in how effective it is, which is good. Very few talents should be "oh, I have GOT to have this!" and those should generally be in the 20 to 25 XP range.

Can you give some examples of the memorable uses of Triumph in combat situation?

Triumph result is exciting, but mostly for non-combat situation. For combat, frankly suggested uses like "upgrade next check" or "score a Critical" is not a big deal for Triumph, especially for lightsaber where you have plenty of other options to achieve this.

Can you give some examples of the memorable uses of Triumph in combat situation?

Triumph result is exciting, but mostly for non-combat situation. For combat, frankly suggested uses like "upgrade next check" or "score a Critical" is not a big deal for Triumph, especially for lightsaber where you have plenty of other options to achieve this.

Memorable combat uses of Triumphs:

1) Kill shot on a sniper in a high rise, and Triumph'd to have him fall from his perch on a group of Stormtroopers pursuing the players.

2) Shot a grunt who was prepping a grenade, Triumph'd to have the grenade roll to the players to pick up and use.

3) Shot a Stormtrooper with a rocket launcher, used 2 Triumphs to have the rocket misfire and hit troop transport! The players found this pretty hilarious.

1 Triumph to prevent from dying an enemy with very important information, who you want interrogated.

This actually happened in our game and I still think it's the best invested Triumph in all our Campaign.

Also, since a Triumph is usable to replicate 1-3 Advantages effects, we let it be used as equivalent to 3 Advantages on the condition that they're used for the same purpose (i.e. you might use a Triumph to recover 3 strain, but not split it for 2 strain and a blue die, for example).

Can you give some examples of the memorable uses of Triumph in combat situation?

My team was fighting an assassin with a jetpack. Even though it was the Faulty Jetpack from "Under a Black Sun", I kept nailing the Piloting check to keep her aloft and she was a huge pain. On a Triumph, instead of just dealing a critical hit, the players decided the shot hit the jetpack, causing it to explode. So it dealt 10 damage and she had falling damage and was now on their level making her much easier to deal with.