Prototype at worlds final table seemed to do alright.

Bare 2 attack dice ships are obsolete unless you can field 8 of them. You need something like accuracy corrector, Crackshot, Juke, etc. to actually have a chance at hitting anything.

48 points of academies cannot kill a super corran. 60 points of academies can not kill a fat Han or super dash.

No. Academy, Bandit, and Binayre will always have a spot and never be obsolete.

While crabbok is really overselling the crappiness of 2 dice (again, crack or juke more than compensate) I agree I see little use for the TAPs outside Inq

GCs are going on bombers WELL before it goes on a TAP

Yeah but Crackshot or Juke could be even better on an Interceptor with EPT tho! =)

Two dice ships are awesome as long as they have another role in your list other than damage. Two Zs are better than a third or fourth TLT Y-Wing because they will do alot of damage at range one and are great for blocking. I think it's more about the points cost. I like how fun all the named A-Wing pilots are but because they don't have three attack dice and come in at about 25 to 30pts after upgrades; you're just better off with two prototypes.

When you play a list that has a number of different threats that cause more damage or control your enemy and you play well then your two dice ships will do more damage than you would think possible.

Alright I'll concede that this is a fair point. I'm having trouble grasping list builds that really seek to include ships, who'se primary function isn't to kill other ships though.... but it makes sense, it's just not my cup of tea generally. I'm more of a glass cannon type of guy - Give me phantoms or give me death! 2 dice just doesn't do it for me unless it's got some kind of kick like Vader with an ATC, or some kind of crazy ordnance thing.

Unless you swarm the 2 Attack ships, they do not do enough damage to be worthwhile against anything but the most lumbering of ships (<2 Agility) unless you have something else going on. In a tournament setting, 3 or 4 2-Attack ships will not be able to do enough damage to consistently win games without shenanigans of some sort.

This is why I don't run TIE swarms much any more. When Howlrunner dies, they just can't pump out damage consistently. It makes me sad.

No. Academy, Bandit, and Binayre will always have a spot and never be obsolete.

They haven't been relevant for a while. I've flown enough lists with an ace and 4-5 academies or whatever and what happens is that the 48 points you spent on them accomplishes very little/nothing and can't deal with an ace or fat turret that costs the same or less amount of points.

They're wastes of points unless you have literally nothing better to spend 12 points on.

I don't see how people can complain about 2 dice ships on the same forum the say X-wings have been replaced by B-wings and expensive (usually low agility) turret ships are unbeatable.

Let's just look at the Imperial List of ships

3+ attack dice ships

Decimator/Firespray sure they are great 3 attack dice ships but they are expensive.

TIE Interceptors/Phantoms 3 (or even 4) attack dice, but they are again expensive and can be hard to fly well.

Shuttle 3 attack dice, but it often has a cannon anyway. It is also IMO the hardest ship in the game to fly effectively.

TIE Defender - love this ship, sure it has three attack dice, but it is usually not worth its points.

2 attack dice ships

TIE Fighter- still my favorite ship in the game. I see it less often mostly because it was the first meta and people have moved on to other lists.

TIE Advanced - Okay maybe not the best ship in the game. But with the new title it can either guarantee 2 hits (basically max damage) or get a free crit.

TIE Bomber - the unloaded TIE bomber is one of them most overlooked ships in the game. a swarm of these things is pretty hard to kill. But let's be honest it is a TIE Bomber, it isn't really supposed to rely on its primary weapon too much.

TIE Punisher - I haven't played too much with this ship, but it is pretty much a super TIE Bomber. I'm not convinced that it will do as well unloaded but its two attack dice aren't really what it is supposed to be attacking with.

TIE f/o - are you kidding me. For a TIE lover this ship is awesome. Not much more cost than a standard TIE and a lot more capability.

People seem to think that 2 attack dice can't hit 3 agility. Any point for point they usually have trouble. But What happens when you have two attack dice with a focus vs the agility without. Expected values 2 attack dice with a focus 6/8 x2 = 1.5 damage, 3 agility with no actions 3/8 x 3 = 1.125 evades. Now if you want the real numbers, Juggler can give them to you but 2 attack dice with a focus is more likely than not to do damage to 3 defense dice without. If you can concentrate fire, or get your opponent to use their focus on attack then you sitting pretty. You know if a TIE fires at a three attack, three agilty ship and all I get it to do is spend its focus on defense so it can't use it on attack then so be it. (this only happens with high PS attacks.)

But this only really counts on high agility ships, against low agility ships having more ships with few attack dice each is way better, because you have more overall dice.

To be fair, I don't think Paragoomba plays the same game we do.

To be fair, I don't think Paragoomba plays the same game we do.

I often wonder that... Especially considering how effective 2 dice ships were in this year's World Championship. Or last years for that matter.

Eh, they can be useful, but you can't be wholly reliant on their damage OR they need to have something to help their output. As many of us fondly remember, there was a two dice ship on the table during the World Championship this year.

It was being used as a blocker primarily, which is just dandy and one of the best uses for one of em'. I've killed Soontir Fel before with nothing by Z-95s by managing to throw a block on him with one of em'.

Then you've got Jake Farrell and Tycho Celchu, who have the PS, EPT slot, and re-positioning skills to reliably get in R1 and maximize their dice modifications.

Juke and Crack Shot also open up a door for a lot of pilots.

You can also just be suicidal with them. Fly right into your opponent's face with three Bandits and dare him to ignore them and shoot at a more valuable target at a greater distance. Either you risk losing a 12pt ship or a 12pt ship gets a chance to lay hurt on something much more valuable. Heck, it wasn't that long ago that I came in third in a tournament flying a swarm of five Bandits and Etahn Abaht. And that was during the reign of Brobots and Soontir Fel at their zenith.

Meanwhile, Scum Zs get access to Feedback Array, making them a cheap, deadly addition to a lot of teams (you don't screw with a quartet of bug zappers...).

They still have a place on the table, even if the fall of the two large based ships lists has made life harder on them. And I think with guidance chips, the rest of em' might take a page from the A-Wing's love of having prockets for an alpha strike and find their own cheap ordnance to launch at the start of battle and get some damage rolling. But as long as blocking can win you games, we'll continue to see Academy Pilots, Bandits, Prototype Pilots, and soon Seiner Test Pilots getting much deserved love.

Eh, they can be useful, but you can't be wholly reliant on their damage OR they need to have something to help their output.

Of course they do... But that is true of most ships in the game. You can't just throw 2-6 random ships together and expect to win. You have to have a plan on how best to make use of those ships and what they can do.

Myself I love Jake, sure the A-Wing only has 2 attack, but with everything he can do, he can be put into a spot to really make good use of those two dice. Plus he can be really hard to kill. Put PtL and Predator or Outmaneuver on him and over the course of a game he can out damage 3 attack ships.

While crabbok is really overselling the crappiness of 2 dice (again, crack or juke more than compensate) I agree I see little use for the TAPs outside Inq

GCs are going on bombers WELL before it goes on a TAP

Yeah but Crackshot or Juke could be even better on an Interceptor with EPT tho! =)

Negative

Interceptors are inefficient green dice deathtraps that'll pop long before you get Amy value out of anyone who isn't pushing limits and auto thrusting

22 points of crackshot saber could buy you omega with juke+ relay

That's 1 more shield

A (IMO) far superior dial (miss 5k get segnors)

Durability from relay (refillable shield) and consistent juke

And don't get me started on how pathetic unmodified juke attacks are. Juke ceptors are just tragedies that could've been given thrusters instead

With no cheap EPT generic, I'm a bit hesitant to fly TAPs instead of crackshot Omega Squadrons.

As a rebel I have always felt like two attack dice were not enough. But once I tried crackshot on a trio of a wings I started to see the utility in 2attack ships.

The popularity of low agility turrets and shuttles means they can still get damage in. Just be sure to take something to counter high agility ships.

They will fare pretty well once tractor beams will get out.

And that's why I'm bangin' on about getting more and more A-Wings. I'm a ****-near dedicated Rebel player and I need a good counter to the upcoming TIE/Ds with Tractor Beams that wanna' bend me over and call me Padme.

Because X-Wings are going to get hit HARD by that, and so are B-Wings.

Outmaneuver + TIE/D + Tractor Beam (and maybe someone in there with an Ion Cannon to set things up)

Because nothing will sing so sweetly to my Imperial ears than X-Wings with 0 agility.

Let me tell you how to counter tbeams

His man shows up with a tbeam; yours with red dice that actually do damage

He sends your man to -1 agility, you send his man off the table

That's how you counter tbeams

2 dice is garbage. It's ok in a Howlrunner swarm, and ok if you are getting another attack somehow, IE a bomber dropping a bomb and also attacking, or a Y-Wing with BTL title... but just plain 2 dice is garbage. Therefore the TIE Ad. prototype is garbage. Inquisitor is ok, but all others are trash IMO.

I've got to disagree with you. Zs and Ties are still effective though less so with more regen abilities showing up. Effective blockers and good fodder to protect a high value ship, they are still useful. And since I don't buy in to your original premise I can't accept your conclusion.

I'm so lost on the hate on 2 attack dice ships going on. 2 attack dice ships are great because they are cheap, they fill out lists, are almost always great blockers, and are worth their points.

The top 2 players at Worlds both had 2 attack dice ships on the board. I don't think that was by accident. The best players find roles for cheap ships that give them higher value than their 2 attack dice would suggest they have.

Swarms are still a thing as well. You shoot with enough 2 attack dice ships, they will do a lot of damage.

With no cheap EPT generic, I'm a bit hesitant to fly TAPs instead of crackshot Omega Squadrons.

Maybe the PS4 will have the EPT slot.

Pretty much what Hobojebus said.

2-attack ships are perfectly fine. However, if you're investing more than 25 points into a 2-attack ship (non-AC/ATC), then there are better options. That's currently the problem with the TIE /fo with exception to Omega Leader and Zeta Leader.

At 12 points though, the humble TIE Academy is still great value. The key is to get into R1 for the extra red and blocking potential.

Well, Zeta Ace with PTL, Comm Relay, and EU is not bad in my experience...

The biggest problem with 2 red dice attacks is the proliferation of 2 hard damage mitigation. High agility was damage mitigation as it reduces or cancels damage but it was soft as in it depended on probability. Sometimes it cancels an attack all together, others it allows a ship to get taken down in a single attack.

Since the meta evolved now there are many builds which gives damage reduction/mitigation that does not depend on probability. Which means you can guarantee that you will have 2 evades which will cancel any 2 red dice attacks. Which is why TLT was invented, it threw too many dice for say 2 evade tokens to cancel but only does a maximum of 2 damage an attack. Still the ability to guarantee 2 damage no matter the defenses is the most powerful weapon in X-wing.

howl+crackshot helps.... a little.

Two attack dice ships still have their place, pretty much the same in the beginning of x-wing. Swarms work great. I often run a mini swarm of 4x headhunters escorted by an ace. The key is to concentrate fire, get 3 or all 4 of those guys to shoot at the same ship. With a 1 forward it is not too hard, especially with the threat of a flank coming from the ace.

You can also use these ships (12 pt Tie or Z-95) as a screen shield and deny actions on your opponents. Use them for what they were made for, messing up the plan of your opponent, and if ignored, a crap top of red dice being thrown at a single ship.

Mathematically red dice are better than green dice and it is usually a matter of time till those green dice fail. Focus/Evade only work for one attack. 3 or 4 two dice attacks add up fast if concentrated on the same ship. Just don't try it on ships like Poe or Soontir unless you deny their action...

They will fare pretty well once tractor beams will get out.

And that's why I'm bangin' on about getting more and more A-Wings. I'm a ****-near dedicated Rebel player and I need a good counter to the upcoming TIE/Ds with Tractor Beams that wanna' bend me over and call me Padme.

Because X-Wings are going to get hit HARD by that, and so are B-Wings.

Outmaneuver + TIE/D + Tractor Beam (any maybe someone in there with an Ion Cannon to set things up)

Because nothing will sing so sweetly to my Imperial ears than X-Wings with 0 agility.

Such sweetness.

Let me tell you how to counter tbeams

His man shows up with a tbeam; yours with red dice that actually do damage

He sends your man to -1 agility, you send his man off the table

That's how you counter tbeams

.. And the others send your man off the table too.

Swarms of tie will love 0 agility B-Wings

Here I am... sitting with multiple wins with Fel + 5 Obsidians last tournament season. The tournament scene wasn't ready for it, and just like this post shows, many players still downplay what a well played mini swarm (4-5) 2 dice ships can do. Just ask the poor fellows that lost their decimators in a single turn (ok so the fact that they had vader on the deci didn't help either). 2 dice ships are fine , they play differently (gasp!) than 3 dice. The sky is not falling, the world isn't coming to an end... yet any how. You don't need juke to make 2 dice effective, but it does help. Same with tractor beams. As the infamous fickle points out with his name, green dice fail eventually, even if you throw 3 at a time, you can only stack tokens so much.