Clear proof that my office has bailed for the New Year already.

I'm sort of a nerd, and I'm trying to quantify gut-feelings about the value of each dial. It's easy to see the point cost per shield/hull of a ship, of course, but slightly more difficult to see how much movement you get per squad point spent.

Part of the issue here is quantifying the different kinds of moves. Certainly a red move is less valuable on an absolute scale than a green one – even though situationally the red could be as good or better – since one adds stress and one clears it. To get a very basic idea, though, I've done a rough calculation of value: white moves are worth 1 point, green 1.5, red 0.5, and special moves (k-turns, s-loops, talon-rolls, 0s) are worth 2 points.

Calculate the total of so-called Move Points then and divide by the lowest possible cost. I then multiplied the result by 100 – whole numbers are more satisfying than decimals for some reason! And here we are: An interesting way to sort by "Dial Value" that has practically zero application for actual, you know, squad building.

My real goal is to use this data with similar data sets for things like "toughness," "offense," and "variability" to create a meta ranking of every ship. (Everyone here loves "meta" right?)

The big things that aren't taken into consideration here are inherent boots and barrel rolls. I don't exactly know how to fairly assign point values to those, but I'm happy to listen to your ideas.

X-Wing Dial Value - Sheet1.pdf

Sir you have the Lambda shuttles rated higher than other things. From a strict dial comparison stand point this is just not possible. So something in your system needs adjustment. It is literally the worst dial in the game.

Sir you have the Lambda shuttles rated higher than other things. From a strict dial comparison stand point this is just not possible. So something in your system needs adjustment. It is literally the worst dial in the game.

This is something I've read a lot here. I'm not sure I believe it. Forget about a value for each kind of movement for a second. The HWK has 11 moves to choose from, with no k-turn. The Lambda has 12, with a valuable 0 move. So, I suppose the choice of the worst raw dial would be between those two ships, sure.

But the point here is dial value. When you factor for how much you have to spend to get each potential move on a dial, the Lambda's cheap base cost makes it more efficient than other, more expensive sh*tty-dial ships.

The Lambda IS the worst dial in the game. HWK is second. I have flown both ships quite a bit, so I feel confident in that statement.

There is something your calculation is missing. You need to weight the different types of moves. For example, a green turn is considerably more valuable than a green bank, which in turn is more valuable than a green straight. If you make all green moves equal in value, you are not getting accurate results.

And it doesn't end there. 1 hard turn is more valuable than 3 hard turn (and that is more valuable than the 2 hard turn). The same applies with the banks, although one could make an argument that the 3 bank is less valuable due to the fact that a lot of people have trouble visualizing where a ship ends up when it performs 3 bank, and therefore human error increases more with that move than any other.

Then there is the k-turns. 5 kturn is the most powerful and 2 k-turn is arguably the least, although its hard to say whether its much worse than the 3 k (mainly when blocked by a large-based ship does it become noticeably undesireable).

Even the straights have slightly different values: 1 being the best and 5 possibly second best, even though it doesn't get used very often (so nice to have though when you need it!).

So yeah, I don't think this type of endeavour is very easy to accomplish with any meaningful accuracy (although I know its been tried before)

i feel like the hwk is worse because having a small based ship unable to turn around is just brutal.

also blade cant forget the super exclusive 1 k turn.

On the K-Turn, the lower the number, the MORE valuable it should be, because the slower and more in place you can turn around to chase the opponent is all the difference between an escaped ship and a destroyed one.

i feel like the hwk is worse because having a small based ship unable to turn around is just brutal.

also blade cant forget the super exclusive 1 k turn.

Good ol' Tetran Cowell!

The reason the HWK is better is because it has a white hard turn and the lambda does not. The lambda does have the stop, which is great and all, but fairly easy to predict.

On the K-Turn, the lower the number, the MORE valuable it should be, because the slower and more in place you can turn around to chase the opponent is all the difference between an escaped ship and a destroyed one.

Depends. A short k-turn IS powerful when your opponent cannot also k-turn because you will get in a good position behind them. However, that is rare.

What makes a short k-turn dangerous, is that it is far easier to predict its position and block. A blocked k-turn is often disastrous.

Take the b-wing. Its 2 k-turn allows it to stay in a fight and get behind a stressed enemy, likely getting a range 1 shot, but if your opponent can react, its very easy to counter. A 5 k-turn on the other hand can almost never be stopped and therefore its much more 'safe' to attempt. If there are a lot of ships, and they are bunched close in a furball, the 2 k-turn will be impossible to complete. The 5 k-turn won't be however, as it will easily clear all the ships. This can be a powerful advantage, especially if you know it (and your opponent doesn't).

Then there's the situation where both sides are k-turning. If you have a low health ship, you want a longer k-turn because there is less odds of taking damage (longer range means dice are more likely in favour of the defender). This is of course assuming both sides are getting stressed and have no actions. If you have a target lock going into the k-turn, or you are using a TIE defender, then that changes things.

So in general, the longer the k-turn, the safer it is and therefore the more often you will have opportunities to use it on a per-match basis.

EDIT: I forgot arc-dodgers! Short K-turns are much easier to dodge arcs on. Its one of the reasons that b-wings can really struggle against push the limit interceptors. even z-95s with the their 3 k-turn are fairly easy to avoid. The longer the k-turn, the harder it is for the arc-dodger to avoid getting shot, because of how the firing arc 'fans out' the farther away from the firing ship the target happens to be.

Sir you have the Lambda shuttles rated higher than other things. From a strict dial comparison stand point this is just not possible. So something in your system needs adjustment. It is literally the worst dial in the game.

With the HWK-290 following closely 2nd... so close infact, that its probably brown nosing the lambda.

EDIT: I'm a bit confused as to why the Z-95 is ranked higher then the A-wing, considering the A-wing with no upgrades except for the Chardaan refit is 15 pts compared to the Z-95 for 12 points, however it has 1 more agility and a far greater dial. You aren't taking into acound the length of the green maneuvers.

OR

So the A-Wing clearly has the same range of movement as the Z-95 + 2 extra movement a 5 straight and a 5 k-turn.

The 5 straight is a green

Also, the 2 hard turns are also green, whereas the Z-95's aren't. Clearly way more value that needs to be taken into consideration, for the 3 extra point costs of the ship.

you can't rate dials numerically

this isn't mathwing, this is actually literally the aspect of the game that prevents mathwing from being an absolute standard

plus, the "value" of a dial is meaningless without the ship attached to it. The Tie/FO, for example, operates completely differently than the Interceptor in ways that cannot be described by a simple difference in #s (Tie/FO knife fights with segnor's and a shorter green forward, Interceptor goes wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee)

meanwhile, the z-95's or X-wing's dial is great relative to the majority of dials in a vacuum, but the ship is such a stiff piece of **** because it has neither boost nor roll. The T-70's, while being nearly identical apart from an extra speed of green and T-rolls, flies far more gracefully thanks to the beautiful boost action

finally, in the case of shuttle v HWK, the shuttle has imo the worse dial. This is because the HWK has a turret slot and can afford to give less of a ****. The shuttle has a fat arse and a firing arc to worry about. The moves present of the dial do not paint a complete picture of how much a ship is or is not limited by their dial.

+1 to the Lambda having the worst dial in the game.

Looking through this list there's a few that stick out to me as being incorrect. (Lambda, Decimator, Aggressor).

All large bases.

Sir you have the Lambda shuttles rated higher than other things. From a strict dial comparison stand point this is just not possible. So something in your system needs adjustment. It is literally the worst dial in the game.

This is something I've read a lot here. I'm not sure I believe it. Forget about a value for each kind of movement for a second. The HWK has 11 moves to choose from, with no k-turn. The Lambda has 12, with a valuable 0 move. So, I suppose the choice of the worst raw dial would be between those two ships, sure.

But the point here is dial value. When you factor for how much you have to spend to get each potential move on a dial, the Lambda's cheap base cost makes it more efficient than other, more expensive sh*tty-dial ships.

Yes the Lambda is cheap. I've been flying a 4 Lambda list lately and without it's cheap points cost this wouldn't be possible. With smart flying it's actually not too bad either. But when you're comparing it to other things in this game it is the worst dial. Why? Because of the ship itself. It's durable and has 3 red dice. So that's good. But it's limited to a front arc only and it can not turn. It literally takes 3 turns to complete a 180 degree turn.

Compare this to your worst rated dial in the Decimator. No red, plenty of white and enough greens to clear any upgrade card associated stresses. Plus a 360 degree 3 die weapon arc. Means no K's doesn't matter one bit. You can fly like a drunk monkey and it literally does not matter unless you fly off the board or out of range.

Not trying to trash your chart, I think it's interesting and it's sparking a lot of conversation. Just pointing out that you can't say X moves equals a better dial. It's about the ship as a whole.

I think, as a whole. This thread is a great Idea, and I think by no means, should you be disheartened and trash the idea. Take the input that people give, weigh it up and factor it all in, I also think you should factor in large base sizes compared to small base sizes, 360° shooting and special movement abilities such as boot. and barrel roll.

I think if we, the community, work together to agree on point costing and value, based of what you have already started as a base template. We could come up with some interesting theories.

But because of what Ficklegreendice mentioned:

you can't rate dials numerically

this isn't mathwing, this is actually literally the aspect of the game that prevents mathwing from being an absolute standard

plus, the "value" of a dial is meaningless without the ship attached to it. The Tie/FO, for example, operates completely differently than the Interceptor in ways that cannot be described by a simple difference in #s (Tie/FO knife fights with segnor's and a shorter green forward, Interceptor goes wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee)

meanwhile, the z-95's or X-wing's dial is great relative to the majority of dials in a vacuum, but the ship is such a stiff piece of **** because it has neither boost nor roll. The T-70's, while being nearly identical apart from an extra speed of green and T-rolls, flies far more gracefully thanks to the beautiful boost action

finally, in the case of shuttle v HWK, the shuttle has imo the worse dial. This is because the HWK has a turret slot and can afford to give less of a ****. The shuttle has a fat arse and a firing arc to worry about. The moves present of the dial do not paint a complete picture of how much a ship is or is not limited by their dial.

I totally agree with what he's saying here. But for sake of argument, lets indulge this thread and work on something and see where it goes. I for one love the idea.

Sir you have the Lambda shuttles rated higher than other things. From a strict dial comparison stand point this is just not possible. So something in your system needs adjustment. It is literally the worst dial in the game.

But the point here is dial value. When you factor for how much you have to spend to get each potential move on a dial, the Lambda's cheap base cost makes it more efficient than other, more expensive sh*tty-dial ships.

Sorry to double post.

I think from what I can understand you are saying that you are just scoring ships on "how many" movement they actually have? is that it?

If so then that's a skewed perspective. Just because the lambda has move movements then other ships, doesn't mean that those specific moves are better. Clearly, it takes three turns to turn 180­° with the Lambda, as show in here

If there are ships currently out there with less movement options, (I cant think of any right now) then you have to factor in what those ranges of movement actually are. for example, hard turns, special maneuvers and so on. Also, base size. Large or small. I think definitely needs to be a factoring cost. Here is a fantastic thread on the ranges of movement for ships large and small. and it factors in LoS for arcs for large and small base ships.

The Lambda IS the worst dial in the game. HWK is second. I have flown both ships quite a bit, so I feel confident in that statement.

There is something your calculation is missing. You need to weight the different types of moves. For example, a green turn is considerably more valuable than a green bank, which in turn is more valuable than a green straight. If you make all green moves equal in value, you are not getting accurate results.

And it doesn't end there. 1 hard turn is more valuable than 3 hard turn (and that is more valuable than the 2 hard turn). The same applies with the banks, although one could make an argument that the 3 bank is less valuable due to the fact that a lot of people have trouble visualizing where a ship ends up when it performs 3 bank, and therefore human error increases more with that move than any other.

Then there is the k-turns. 5 kturn is the most powerful and 2 k-turn is arguably the least, although its hard to say whether its much worse than the 3 k (mainly when blocked by a large-based ship does it become noticeably undesireable).

Even the straights have slightly different values: 1 being the best and 5 possibly second best, even though it doesn't get used very often (so nice to have though when you need it!).

So yeah, I don't think this type of endeavour is very easy to accomplish with any meaningful accuracy (although I know its been tried before)

I think that you're spot on insofar as the moves need a finer rating than simply red, white, green, and k/t/s/0. I'm going to play with the sheet a little bit – I like the idea of working the formula so that straight, bank, turn weighted differently (and I agree on that order from most to least valuable), as well as the color. Not so sure on distance, though, that seems a lot more situational.

you can't rate dials numerically

this isn't mathwing, this is actually literally the aspect of the game that prevents mathwing from being an absolute standard

plus, the "value" of a dial is meaningless without the ship attached to it. The Tie/FO, for example, operates completely differently than the Interceptor in ways that cannot be described by a simple difference in #s (Tie/FO knife fights with segnor's and a shorter green forward, Interceptor goes wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee)

meanwhile, the z-95's or X-wing's dial is great relative to the majority of dials in a vacuum, but the ship is such a stiff piece of **** because it has neither boost nor roll. The T-70's, while being nearly identical apart from an extra speed of green and T-rolls, flies far more gracefully thanks to the beautiful boost action

finally, in the case of shuttle v HWK, the shuttle has imo the worse dial. This is because the HWK has a turret slot and can afford to give less of a ****. The shuttle has a fat arse and a firing arc to worry about. The moves present of the dial do not paint a complete picture of how much a ship is or is not limited by their dial.

I agree that a) the value of just the dial isn't very meaningful on its own, and b) the values as I have them here are far too blunt. But remember, my goal is to use this as one piece of a larger system to rate ships, that takes into account other factors (offense, defense, variability). The first step is getting some finer detail on dial value though, by giving specific movements specific values.

The rating should be based on use cases...

For example:

• How well can the ship move forward?
  • Choice Fidelity (highest for having 1,2,3,4 and 5 straight; lower for having less fidelity - less choices)
  • Choice Range (highest for having a 1 and 5; lower for having a closer together options)
  • Movement Freedom (higher for having more green straight options; lower for having only white straights; lowest if there is a straight stress)
• How well can the ship turn around?
  • Choice Fidelity
  • Choice Range
  • Movement Freedom
• How well can the ship bank or turn?
  • Choice Fidelity
  • Choice Range
  • Movement Freedom

So in that breakdown - you would assign 9 values to each ship, ideally by literally ranking all ships and then normalizing to say a 100 point system.

well,

1 straight (green) =

2 straight (green) =

3 straight (green) =

4 straight (green) =

5 straight (green) =

1 HT (green) =

2 HT (green) =

3 HT (green) =

1 bank (green) =

2 bank (green) =

3 bank (green) =

1 straight =

2 straight =

3 straight =

4 straight =

5 straight =

1 HT =

2 HT =

3 HT =

1 bank =

2 bank =

3 bank =

1 straight (red) =

2 straight (red) =

3 straight (red) =

4 straight (red) =

5 straight (red) =

1 HT (red) =

2 HT (red) =

3 HT (red) =

1 bank (red) =

2 bank (red) =

3 bank (red) =

1 Kturn (red) =

3 Kturn (red) =

4 Kturn (red) =

5 Kturn (red) =

3 T-roll (red) =

2 S-loop (red) =

3 S-loop (red) =

Now we need to vote on the rating of the turns, from maybe 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2 Then collect the most common.

Most ships can do a 2straight (green) maneuver. so a common move like this should be rated with a 1.0 for example

A 5straight (green however is Super fast and removes stress, a powerful move, should be rated a 2.0 along with the

unique turns, S-loop, T-roll and K-turn, even though they give stress, they allow you to turn 180° and the power of such moves should be 2.0 as well.